<p>It's unfair, but the truth.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But put it this way, if there were actually a SAT2 English test, i think the percentile will be just as messed up. even ppl with eng as 2nd language can get 800 for sure.
[/quote]
There were actually two of them. They were called the SAT II Writing and Literature tests. And nowhere near 40%+ of all test takers scored an 800. In fact, an 800 on Literature is usually 99%+, and for 790 it's 99%.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Im pretty sure all native speakers will be taking their particular language test anyways.
[/quote]
Except that very few languages are actually offered as SAT II's.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There's no pitty for ESLers.
[/quote]
How about ESL students of languages other than those with SAT II's? I work at a Kumon center, and I see the difficulties that many students - particularly East and South Asians who recently immigrated here - go through. However, there's no Hindi, Gujurati, Punjabi, Arabic, or Urdu SAT II's. A good friend of mine taught himself Arabic so that he would be able to read the Qaran in his native language - yet colleges will have no clue what he's gone through unless he tries to brag about it in his essay. Don't give only certain ESL students an advantage - but then again, SAT II's were not intended to measure proficiency accumulated outside of high school in the first place. The reason WHY those other languages aren't offered as SAT II's is because they aren't typical high school foreign languages. Using them for other reasons means you found a loophole in the system and have decided to exploit the opportunity. How good does that look on an application?</p>
<p>Say a school requires three SAT II's - say math and any other two, for example. If Applicant A is of Chinese descent and scored 800/800/800 on Math IIC, Biology, and Chinese even though she took French in high school, and Applicant B, also of Chinese descent, scored 800/800/800 on Math IIC, Biology, and any other test which corresponds to something she took in high school, which profile looks more impressive?</p>
<p>I'd go with Applicant B.</p>
<p>how bout i sucked at chinese in school, which my teacher will corroborate, then i fail SAT II chinese ?</p>
<p>Some facts on Chinese SAT II:
* Some colleges, such as Harvard, state explicitly that they do not take any of the SAT II tests in an applicant's native language. But most colleges do not have such a requirement. It's just speculation how adcom disregards Chinese SAT II as such talks are not coming from adcom.
* There is a high-percentage of native speakers taking the test. These are students who immigrate to the States after 5th grade, or students who attend American/International schools in Chinese-speaking countries.
* The test has most difficult scaling curve in all SAT IIs. To get 800, one can only have at most one problem wrong. It's 790 if one gets two wrong. For details, see the Real SAT II book which includes one Chinese SAT II practice.
* Most of American-born Chinese, who grow up in the U.S., won't score more than 750 even if they have gone through years of weekend Chinese schools, and even if they speak Chinese at home. Chinese is a difficult language to learn, and the test's scaling curve is just harsh. Only the best students in these Chinese schools can do well in the test, and that requires years of hard work.</p>
<p>It is not logical to blindly conclude that Chinese SAT II hurts college admissions. A good score should only help, especially if one also demonstrates proficiency in English (through SAT), and another foreign language (through SAT II or AP).</p>
<p>Didian, you bring up good points, and though the test curve is very harsh, the relative difficulty should not be difficult for native speakers. It is understood that Chinese is a difficult language-- no doubt about it, however like other SAT II's, it is definitely possible to score an 800 (since virtually half of all test takers do apparently).</p>
<p>Chinese the language is difficult.</p>
<p>Chinese as the SAT II is not difficult. For example, questions will include:</p>
<p>From the passage, what did the boy do?
A) Water the plants
B) Walk the dog
C) Go to the store</p>
<p>The difficulty of the test does not nearly reflect the difficulty of the language. As you can tell, there is virtually no big tricks on the SAT II Chinese compared to the SAT I Verbal section.</p>
<p>Really, it's up to the individual to take the SAT II in his/her native language. On one hand, an 800 in Chemistry is not the same as an 800 in Chinese (if you're a native speaker), but it shouldn't hurt if you decide to take the Chinese SAT II or whatever it is you want to take. Keep in mind, an 800 on the Chinese SAT II will certainly not make up for a 500 on a different SAT II. All in all, ETS did not intend for the SAT II languages to turn out the way it had, but in the end, it is up to the test taker to see what is best.</p>
<p>SAT II Writing and Literature tests does not equal to SAT2 chinese for sure.... i dont see how theres lit or writing in any of the language test. So there isnt actually an SAT2 English test.</p>
<p>quote:
SAT II's were not intended to measure proficiency accumulated outside of high school in the first place</p>
<p>i do speak chinese at home, but ive been learning chinese all my life, so is tht accumulated outside high school? Having learnt a language for so many years, am i not suppose to show the abilities simply becuz i speak it at home?? And to be specific, what i do speak at home is NOT mandarin, the one used on the test. There are so many 'types' of chinese anyways. The sat2 chinese should be clearly labelled as 'SAT2 Chinese(MANDARIN). Or putonghua, if anyone dont understand. id agree tht it doesnt look tht impressive from a native speaker, but its sad because i doubt high asian scorers on the verbal sections are looked as more 'impressive'.</p>
<p>In one way or another, we've all stated the obvious:</p>
<p>The SAT's are bias.</p>
<p>/agree with KRabble88</p>
<p>mmhm fo sho.</p>
<p>I think the SAT2 Chinese is fair. I'm Chinese but I've been raised in America my whole life and I suck at the language. If I were to take the Chinese SAT2, a 700+ probably would've been a great accomplishment for me, but then it would be looked down upon by everyone. So that's why i'm not taking it.</p>
<p>Perhaps it's all misunderstood...
When a Chinese Speaking person was raised in China / Hong Kong / Taiwan / Singapore(and the list goes on), he/she doesn't have such an easy elementary education...</p>
<p>We(Native Chinese Speaking People?) went through a great deal of hard work, though SAT II Chinese may seem easy for us, it is not the easiet SAT II for non-native speakers...</p>
<p>There are great differences between English and Chinese, English mostly tests one's ability to use grammar correctly w/ a lesser portion that tests one's vocab...But Chinese tests one's ability to read/understand every single word(symbol, some of you refer to), and it is not the easiest task if you are not a native Chinese speaker.</p>
<p>Perhaps some of you that claim that SAT II Chinese is too bias because your native-Chinese-Speaker friends have told you how easy the exam is, but remember, if you've never undergone an amount of work and education...it's not that easy to get 700+...</p>
<p>I speak Chinese(Mandarin) at home, and I came to U.S. after graduating elementary school...and I've visited the "Weekend Chinese Schools", believe me, most, if not ALL of the students there have ALOT of trouble to even score 650 due to the complicated(if you're not familiar w/ it) Chinese words(symbols?)</p>
<p>You learn little at the Chinese Schools.</p>
<p>Those who take the SAT II Chinese do good because they are good. Those who don't do good in practice don't bother. That's why the curve is so darn harsh. It's because the good people take it and the worse people don't. Isn't that obvious??? Look at the advice you are giving now. If you can't score 800 don't bother. That's ok advice, but I don't think it's the best. </p>
<p>For example I took it in 7th grade for practice and got a 750. I moved here when I was 4. Is Chinese my native language? Technically yes, but other wise, it's a harsh judgement because I was raised here, where I always communicate in English. Colleges are also harsh because Chinese is indeed a very difficult language to master.</p>
<p>"there have ALOT of trouble to even score 650 due to the complicated"</p>
<p>I beg to differ, considering that an 800 is like in the 60th percentile.</p>
<p>Wait, so erhm its biased for a Chinese to take SAT 2 Chinese while its not biased for a Spanish student to take SAT 2 Spanish because the Chinese will most likely score a perfect score? </p>
<p>Yes, the chinese test ask questions like:</p>
<p>From the passage, what did the boy do?
A) Water the plants
B) Walk the dog
C) Go to the store</p>
<p>but so too does the other SAT 2 language tests. Thus just because Chinese people can achieve high scores on their test doesn't make it 'unfair'. </p>
<p>This brings us to another point. Lets talk about College Applications. Do you honestly think a chinese with the same test scores and gpa as an African American student will get into the same school as the latter? Do you think its fair? Why must one be punished for working one's butt off? Why can certain students slide through the cracks while Asians and particularly Chinese students have to meet a different standard? </p>
<p>And oh wait, even if an Chinesemanaged to have a 2400 SAT and graduated from Harvard, he/she still has to struggle even to get a job? Why? because the poor guy is Chinese. </p>
<p>So why the hell are you moaning and crying Krabble? Don't you think its the Chinese who should complain rather?</p>
<p>
[quote]
So why the hell are you moaning and crying Krabble? Don't you think its the Chinese who should complain rather?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
And oh wait, even if an Chinesemanaged to have a 2400 SAT and graduated from Harvard, he/she still has to struggle even to get a job? Why? because the poor guy is Chinese.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're taking this argument out of perspective. </p>
<p>I never told you not to take it. In fact, I encouraged you to exercise your freedom as an American (if you are one) and choose whether to take it or not.</p>
<p>I have gone through the same as many other Asian Americans have by spending each weekend at Korean school. There is no doubt that it is a difficult language, but as you have said for yourself, it is a ridiculously easy test. Take a look at the averages for SAT II scores from College Board itself: <a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/scores/understanding/average.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/scores/understanding/average.html</a></p>
<p>Like I said, the SAT's are bias and so is life. Take whatever it is you want.</p>
<p>Like I have said, yes it is easy but so are the other language tests! if cc makes it harder, it should make the other language tests harder too. Thats why i used the college application example. as you can see, just because chinese spend more time and thus make everything look easy doesn't mean they deserve to be punished does it?</p>
<p>Vehement, I would assume that the majority of students who take the SAT II in Chinese have learned it outside of school. On the other hand, students that have taken the SAT II in Spanish/French/etc., most likely learned it during high school. I don't know about other schools, but mine offers the most typical ones, Spanish, French, German, and Latin. I assume the majority of schools teach only the European languages.</p>
<p>P.S.- I don't feel that anyone should be punished for taking the SAT in his/her native language. On the other hand, don't you think it would be unfair for a college to admit a student who got an 800 in Chinese (his/her native language) over another student who may have gotten a 790 in Math, Chemistry, etc.? (This probably would not happen, but I think the point is made clear)</p>
<p>...and its fair to only teach only german, latin, spnaish, french in school?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wait, so erhm its biased for a Chinese to take SAT 2 Chinese while its not biased for a Spanish student to take SAT 2 Spanish because the Chinese will most likely score a perfect score?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First of all, notice how nobody is talking about other language tests not being biased. Of course the same principle applies to all the other tests. That's pretty much a "duh" question. Come on. However, it's fair to offer them because they're more commonly learned in school.</p>
<p>However, this thread was titled "SAT II Chinese" because it has the most skewed curve and has a reputation for that.</p>
<p>I know several native Spanish speakers, and none of them have taken the SAT II Spanish exam. Meanwhile, many of my Chinese friends have taken it their freshman or sophomore years. I'm not saying this accurately represents American test takers, but for some reason or another, less native Spanish (or other foreign language) speakers take the corresponding SAT II exam than Chinese speakers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
...and its fair to only teach only german, latin, spnaish, french in school?
[/quote]
Yes. Do you understand why we learn foreign languages? It helps with linguistic skills. Latin, Spanish, Italian and French are all Latin-based, and German is Germanic - though it has a lot of Latin-based stuff in it now. Half the vocab words I know are similar to corresponding Latin-based words. The root "kinder" came from German - in which it means "children". Any overlaps with Chinese? To be fair, how about Hindi? Afrikaans? No. Honestly, I don't even know why they have Chinese, Japanese, and Korean as SAT II's or why they're taught in schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lets talk about College Applications. Do you honestly think a chinese with the same test scores and gpa as an African American student will get into the same school as the latter? Do you think its fair? Why must one be punished for working one's butt off? Why can certain students slide through the cracks while Asians and particularly Chinese students have to meet a different standard?
[/quote]
Why isn't Hindi offered? It's one of the most common second (or first) languages for applicants to elite schools. And let's not use the cheap excuse that Chinese is "harder" this time.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And oh wait, even if an Chinesemanaged to have a 2400 SAT and graduated from Harvard, he/she still has to struggle even to get a job? Why? because the poor guy is Chinese.
[/quote]
Wts? Are you saying that Chinese people are discriminated against, so they deserve a break with the SAT II? Like a pity SAT II? That's pathetic. Besides, this isn't about discrimination at the workplace, and the Collegeboard isn't obliged to help you with that. Come on, be practical.</p>
<p>Notice that even though they learn the other languages in high school, that's 45 minutes a day for most people.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, Chinese is a language in terms of learning, just spoken at home. Most Chinese parents never make their kids write or read Chinese, so almost no practice is done compared to learning a language on a regular basis in high school.</p>
<p>And theoneo, he's not saying Chinese deserve a pity SAT - you are being judgemental. He is just saying that the standards are different, which is a fact. I mean, the African American with a 1400 beats a Chinese with a 1600 on an SAT, and sadly, that's just the truth when it comes to college applications. Oh well. In real life, same deal.</p>