Scared

[oldfort]

<p>Even without data (you would never get it), it is a known fact Asians and girls need higher academic stats to get into top tier schools. The reason is Asians tend to focus on academic more, and girls tend to do better than boys in high school. To have a well balanced class (50% boys and girls), Asians and girls need to have higher stats to be admitted. It is not foolish, it is logical. It is not the case for every school. Asians would be URM at some LACS, and girls could get into engineering schools with lower stats than boys, just look at Cornell engineering and MIT.</p>

[mini]

<p>It is a known fact that Asians - Hmong, Mien, Mongolians, Uzbeks, - and a host of others, when identified, need LOWER academic stats to get into top-tier schools. And that is not foolish, only logical, because they may have lower stats to begin with, and are underrepresented minorities. </p>

<p>It’s a known fact that some Asians are URMs, and are treated as such.</p>

[toughyear]

<p>@annasdad
this is my 280th post over 32 months at CC. anna’s dad posted over 2,100 during his 6 months at CC. More than 2,000 of annasdad’s posts are not much more than spreading disinformation or otherwise useless words. the evidence is everywhere, such as #40, #31, … feel sorry for anna. get life buddy and spend more time in helping anna with her college app and in producing a better quality paper for your countryside community – don’t bring down your community to your level.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

@oldfort

Even without data (you would never get it), it is a known fact Asians and girls need higher academic stats to get into top tier schools.

</p>

<p>

@toughyear

More than 2,000 of annasdad’s posts are not much more than spreading disinformation or otherwise useless words.

</p>

<p>You can make all the unsubstantiated claims you want (“known facts” generally have data to support them), and you can fall back on all the ad hominem nonsense you want - the simple fact remains, you have presented no evidence that Asians face a higher bar in college admissions - I can only presume because you have none.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>'Six Degrees of Discussing Asians" factor in effect again.</p>

<p>It only took about five posts this time.</p>

[sewhappy]

<p>oldfort, I agree with you completely.</p>

<p>I really don’t get the deep seated resentment in some people over Asians speaking up about this situation. I suspect that it has to do unconsciously with a resentment of Asian achievement levels, in general. The thing about racial bias is that those who have it are the last to really accept that they have it.</p>

<p>I’ve lived in Silicon Valley, the Southeast, the Midwest, and now the Northeast. Have worked in tech companies, universities, fortune 100s, insurance companies. Have had kids in really bad public systems, fair to middling privates, and now one at a very elite private hs. Son went to an Ivy. DH has seen a lot of academics, government and the corporate world.</p>

<p>It is clear as can be to me and my family that Asians have to jump higher. White girls have it pretty bad, too.</p>

<p>Oh, and mini, you didn’t attend a HYP, right? You didn’t teach at one. You have a kid in grad school at one. That makes you an expert on the quality of education at HYPs? About time someone called you on some of your ridiculous pronouncement. Oh, and Oxford, right? My DH has hired two from Oxford. They couldn’t get into elite stateside grad programs so went to Oxford. Neither were any great shakes. Anecdotal, of course. But the sense in our circle is that picking up an oxford or cambridge graduate degree in many fields is sort of a vanity degree for those who aren’t that brilliant, really. Biases abound, of course. I wouldn’t think of repeatedly posting on CC what I think of the educational merit of going to Oxford.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

@sewhappy

It is clear as can be to me and my family that Asians have to jump higher.

</p>

<p>Do you have any evidence to back that up?</p>

[mini]

<p>I make no claims about the quality of Oxford education, now that mine is 40 years ago. I’ve already posted an in-depth article about what my experience was like.</p>

<p>It is a KNOWN FACT that some Asians are URMs, are treated as such, and have to jump lower. I gave specific examples. Known fact.</p>

<p>As for quality of ed? This year, H. had 20 Fulbright scholars (including graduate students who received Fulbrights.) They had 107 applicants. Smith, without a graduate school, and with average SAT scores some 400 points lower and a student body less than half the size, had 19, with 40 applicants. You can check the numbers for the past eight years (and put Y and P and S into the equation) and you’ll find the same thing. Something “happened” in the four years between the time the students were accepted and the time they applied for Fulbrights. Not anecdotal, but limited data of course. (By the way, the same was pretty much true at Pitzer, and Pomona - though in the latter, the student body is smaller, but the the SAT scores higher.)</p>

<p>I know that over the past five years, likely several hundred Ivy applicants have applied to my d.'s graduate program. Not a single one has been accepted. It’s obviously NOT because they aren’t smart - they couldn’t have squeezed under the steel door if they weren’t. Something happened over the following four years that made them “less qualified”, as they had become less qualified for Fulbrights as well. (If you look a the numbers for “research” as opposed to teaching Fulbrights gained by undergraduates, it is even more extreme.)</p>

<p>All anecdotal, of course.</p>

<p>Don’t you just love CC?</p>

[bears_and_dogs]

<p>annasdad
it might be not of your standard, but fun read.
[What</a> Happens to All the Asian-American Overachievers When the Test-Taking Ends? – New York Magazine](<a href=“http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/]What”>What Happens to All the Asian-American Overachievers When the Test-Taking Ends? -- New York Magazine - Nymag)</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

I really don’t get the deep seated resentment in some people over Asians speaking up about this situation.

Perhaps what you don’t get, at least as far as I’m concerend (and likely some other readers and posters share my POV), is the disppointment I feel when I visit a messaage board I used to consider atypical for its intelligent discussion of varied issues (granted, primarily related to college admission), and find the same five or six topics (mostly having nothing to do with race) being debated ad nauseum based primarily on anecdote and with absolutely no real movement by any party from their initial position. Sure, I don’t have to read, and generally I don’t. But isn’t it a little tiresome?</p>

<p>Wherever the truth actually lies, this debate on here isn’t helping anybody, regardless of their point of view.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>annasdad wrote:

You can make all the unsubstantiated claims you want (“known facts” generally have data to support them), and you can fall back on all the ad hominem nonsense you want - the simple fact remains, you have presented no evidence that Asians face a higher bar in college admissions - I can only presume because you have none.

</p>

<p>Just Google it. You are in the publication business. </p>

<p>Here is a writeup about sex discrimination by inside Higher Education

The proposal that the civil rights commission is basing its probe on frames the issue this way: "Recently, accusations have been made that some selective private, coed, liberal arts schools are discriminating in admissions in to order to maintain what they regard as an appropriate gender balance. Specifically, the accusation is that women applicants are being discriminated against in order to prevent the schools from becoming ‘too female.’

Read more: [Probe</a> of Extra Help for Men | Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/11/02/admit#ixzz1cHhRq0v5]Probe”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/11/02/admit#ixzz1cHhRq0v5)
Inside Higher Ed </p>

<p>Here is an article from USNews about Race in Selective College Admission
[Do</a> Elite Private Colleges Discriminate Against Asian Students? - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/articles/2009/10/07/do-elite-private-colleges-discriminate-against-asian-students]Do”>Do Elite Private Colleges Discriminate Against Asian Students?)
with a full study done a while back: <a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/EventsTraining/NC10/Baltimore/educational/Documents/C313.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nacacnet.org/EventsTraining/NC10/Baltimore/educational/Documents/C313.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[annasdad]

<p>From the article in your second link:</p>

<p>

Espenshade warned against concluding that his study proved that colleges improperly discriminated.

</p>

[bears_and_dogs]

<p>gawd
says in my attached link,</p>

<p>The Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade has calculated that an Asian applicant must, in practice, score 140 points higher on the SAT than a comparable white applicant to have the same chance of admission.</p>

<p>^ it’s the same Princeton guy. I guess we shouldn’t trust any numbers in the media, either.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>Annasdad -that’s what you got out of it? It is really amazing.</p>

<p>Any study we do, no one could ever be conclusive, including studies on drugs, cell phone effect…We do modelling and projection all the time, but it is never conclusive. Pardon me in saying this, but have you ever done any research?</p>

[oldfort]

<p>

Translating the advantages into SAT scores, study author Thomas Espenshade, a Princeton sociologist, calculated that African-Americans who achieved 1150 scores on the two original SAT tests had the same chances of getting accepted to top private colleges in 1997 as whites who scored 1460s and Asians who scored perfect 1600s.

</p>

<p>This is what the data is telling us. It is not saying Asians are being discriminated against, but by looking at the data, one may reasonably conclude the reason Asians would need 1600 to have the same chance of being accepted is due to race bias.</p>

[starbright]

<p>

Perhaps what you don’t get, at least as far as I’m concerend (and likely some other readers and posters share my POV), is the disppointment I feel when I visit a messaage board I used to consider atypical for its intelligent discussion of varied issues (granted, primarily related to college admission), and find the same five or six topics (mostly having nothing to do with race) being debated ad nauseum based primarily on anecdote and with absolutely no real movement by any party from their initial position. Sure, I don’t have to read, and generally I don’t. But isn’t it a little tiresome?</p>

<p>Wherever the truth actually lies, this debate on here isn’t helping anybody, regardless of their point of view.

</p>

<p>Bovertine, I completely and absolutely agree with you on everything you wrote.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>What I am not prepared to say is that elite schools are trying to keep Asians out of its institution. I think it has more to do with those elite instituions are trying to create a balanced community - same percentage of male/female ratio, race ratio, to have athletes, musicians, newspapaer editors…Because Asians tend to focus more on academic and test scores, their stats are higher in general, and this is the same for women.</p>

[toughyear]

<p>^oldfort, thanks for the data.<br>
For private colleges, Fall 1997 admission, </p>

<p>Actual admission data - percentage of class: white(59.9), black(8.3), hispanic(7.9), Asian(23.9).
Difference from actual IF Race-Neutral Admission: white(-6.5), black(-5.5), hispanic(-3.2), Asian(+15.1)</p>

<p>A race-neutral admission will then yield class percentage of Asian 39%. This is very close to the 37% at Caltech which practices the race-neutral admission policy.</p>

<p>oldfort, please don’t bother with annasdad because this is not an evidence for him. But rather he will demand some spoken word by jesus or something written in the bible to take it as his ‘evidence’, or perhaps something spoken by russ limbaugh.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

one may reasonably conclude the reason Asians would need 1600 to have the same chance of being accepted is due to race bias.

</p>

<p>Except, of course, that the person who did the study specifically said that it proves no such thing.</p>

<p>There are lots of other possible explanations, expounded at length on countless CC threads. I won’t go into them, other than to suggest that these two quotes taken together might provide a clue:</p>

<p>

But intrinsic intelligence, of course, is precisely what Asians don’t believe in. They believe—and have *proved—that the constant practice of test-taking will improve the scores of whoever commits to it. All throughout Flushing, as well as in Bayside, one can find “cram schools,” or storefront academies, that drill students in test preparation after school, on weekends, and during summer break. “Learning math is not about learning math,” an instructor at one called Ivy Prep was quoted in the New York Times as saying. “It’s about weightlifting. You are pumping the iron of math.” Mao puts it more specifically: “You learn quite simply to nail any standardized test you take.”

</p>

<p>[What</a> Happens to All the Asian-American Overachievers When the Test-Taking Ends? – New York Magazine](<a href=“http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/]What”>What Happens to All the Asian-American Overachievers When the Test-Taking Ends? -- New York Magazine - Nymag)</p>

<p>and:</p>

<p>

Mr. Fitzsimmons [dean of admissions at Harvard] called successful applicants to Harvard “good all-arounders — academically, extracurricularly and personally,” and he stressed the importance of demonstrating humanity and three-dimensionality in one’s college application. “I want to know, what is it this person does beside chew gum and produce good grades or scores?”

</p>

<p>[Colleges</a> Discuss the ‘Ideal’ High School Graduate - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/27697/]Colleges”>Colleges Discuss the 'Ideal' High School Graduate - The New York Times)</p>

<p>So as long as Asian parents are locked into the mindset that good test scores and grades are all that matters in admissions to elite colleges, they’re going to feel discriminated against. But it would seem to me that were I the parent of an Asian student and if I was obsessed about getting my kid into a top college (and I pray that I wouldn’t be, but that’s another issue), I might concentrate less on drilling for standardized tests and more on helping kids develop “humanity and three-dimensionality.”</p>

[bears_and_dogs]

<p>are you still on? prof. Starbright?</p>

<p>let me understand it.
I looked up few words and what I think is, </p>

<p>Bovertine is basically saying CC was better before people started talking about things based on their own experience (kids. H’s schooling, wife’s job, their parents’ values, the country where they are from, what happened at their church, at Walmart, etc) then dig and twist them till make people feel like want to puke by reading.</p>

<p>Is it ^right? then my question is
How was old CC? what’s in it? When was that?
all I know is ^^^ all these and actually I learned alot from it.
It is funny how someone disagree with someone that escalate slowly, then attack and counter attack, all the while all of us would get to know so many details of internet strangers’ lives (married HS sweetheart, what’s for dinner, failed study abroad, stalker boyfriend, cheated tax, where they buy clothes, have flat screen TV or not…)
is it true if you’d post in"cafe" it does not count as your post count?
maybe all those fun/puke inducing debates should be moved to it’s own cafe, so we don’t waste time.</p>