<p>backhandgrip: When our daughter started looking at schools, she did all the research and made the decisions. We drove her (most) everywhere and looked at a lot of schools, and we were willing to support her in any of her choices. And she really only applied to schools where she knew she would be happy attending. She didn't consider any of them "less than" any other, because they each offered something that appealed to her interests and goals. But in the senior year, as the months rolled on, our flagship state university kept looking better and better, and just seemed to offer more of absolutely everything she was interested in--on so many levels. And her every contact with the school--from the get-go-- was wonderful--even telephone contacts with various individuals--the responses were as though they had just been sitting around waiting to answer her specific questions. Contrast that with her contacts with much smaller private schools, where--more often than not--the phone or email never got answered; and if the person did answer, he or she often sounded incredibly hassled. That certainly gives a potential student a different feel for a school, for sure. And while she received merit money from a couple of the smaller schools where she applied, she was nominated for and ultimately received a full merit scholarship at our state university. She had returned from the finalist weekend for that, impressed with the school itself, the scholarship program and those involved, as well as the other scholars who participated. So when she was notified that she had been awarded one, she was thrilled (as were we). She is now at UNC-CH and just having a truly rewarding experience. Both the school and the program are very impressive and offer more than we could have imagined. The level of support--financial and otherwise--is nothing less than phenomenal. Her scholarship also includes summer programs and study abroad, as well as a stipend. I will also say that, as a freshmen, with the exception of one large lecture class (which she enjoys), all her classes have 20 students or less. She is also very active and involved in ec's there. She told us recently, she couldn't imagine being any place else.</p>
<p>I just wanted to add also, that I believe that many merit scholarship programs are not simply about "rewarding" a student for past h.s. achievements, but really more about supporting students and believing in their potential--essentially, investing in their future. And that's pretty wonderful.</p>
<p>What concerns me is many here seem to think that the only place for a "good financial deal" is a state school. Absolutely NOT true, as Curmudgeon and I can both attest. </p>
<p>If you are willing to look beyond the Northeast, tuition prices drop considerably at many excellent schools in the midwest, south and northwest. Plus, many of these schools offer substantial merit money to boot, and offer have lower thresholds for merit awards. And, many of them stack up quite well in terms of academic opportunities and educational quality. </p>
<p>I do not see attending many of these schools as a tradeoff between academic quality and financial considerations - combine lower starting price with merit and you can still get a great private school experience for the same price or even less than a public, but it probably will not be at a school in the Northeast, nor will it be a top 20 "name brand" school that will impress your friends and relatives. However, it is entirely possible to get a great education for a reasonable price if you and your child are open to looking beyond the obvious places and do your research.</p>
<p>Just to elaborate on my point, here are some private schools with good math departments that are fairly reasonable to begin with and generous with merit money:</p>
<p>St. Olaf, Lawrence U, Hendrix, Case Western Reserve, Tulane, Trinity U (Texas), Willamette, Albion, College of Wooster, RIT, Valparaiso, Rice, Southwestern U, DePauw.</p>
<p>I know that my pov is unique in that my son had a very specific interest that limited the schools he was interested in. I don't know what we would have done had he not been so focused. But he seems to be at the perfect place for him, even though people say he "could have done better" in choice of schools. We visited many, many schools from #1 in the rankings to #98. But not only did #98 give him excellent merit money, it would have been the right place even without the money. He knew he was going there from the moment he stepped on campus. When he met some of the current students - and especially after he was accepted into the program he wanted - there was no thought of going anywhere else.</p>
<p>This focus on top name brand schools in CC is to be expected (those are the names we all - diverse us - have in common). But it has changed. When I first got onto CC a few years ago, that seemed to be the ENTIRE focus of conversation. It's great that CC has diversified itself and now we're much more sensitive to the myriad of opportunities out there and what the real seletion criteria should be.</p>
<p>Carolyn: I agree, and I'm not sure anyone was saying otherwise. But (some) state universities really do tend to offer so much on so many levels. It's hard to overlook/dismiss the qualities of the top ones, at least. But, yes, there are plenty of small schools that have good merit aid--even the more well known ones that say they don't, often do. (They just don't advertise it.)</p>
<p>I agree with carolyn, and take some expection to the notion that taking merit aid is "selling out."</p>
<p>My son took Tulane up its generous offer of full tuition. And, as many of you know, he just finished a 40-day "internship" of distater relief in LA. as a member of the Tulane EMS service. On the road to medical school, he may have received a "boost" than not many students can match. But that is not the point, here is the point:</p>
<p>By accepting Tulane's offer of full tuition, he put himself in a position where he was financially free to take on the challenge of becoming an EMS, take the extra classes, work the extra hours, etc. So, he really did not "settle" by taking the $$$, he gained some financial and educational freedom that he would not have otherwise had.</p>
<p>When I consider all my friends and acquaintances who are successful in law, medicine, business and education, I would be hard-pressed to name their respective undergraduate schools. What seems like a huge decision now to a high school senior becomes just one decision among many along the road to adulthood. We've always told our kids that although this is an important decision for them, it will not be THE most important one in their lives.
That being said, when it came to looking at colleges, we focused not on rankings, but rather on what schools would provide the best "fit" (academically, campus culture, activities) for our kids. Without sacrificing quality, we concentrated on schools where our kids would be above the 75% of the accepted students to maximize merit considerations. If the school had little "name recognition," so what? We've always prided ourselves as people who march to the beat of a different drummer - and your success in life is determined much more by your own dilligence and integrity than by an old-boy network and the shallow applause of the world.
My son is applying to 7 schools, scattered around the country, all offering something a little different from the others. He has no "first choice" right now, but says he would be pleased to attend any of them. His decision will be based on a combination of financial and academic factors, plus a bit of "what feels right" to him. So far, one acceptance (with a nice scholarship) - will be awaiting the others, relatively stress-free.</p>
<p>My son marched to a different drum right to the heart of the Midwest!
Speaking of sweatshirts and relatives: he bought one for his little 2- year-old cousin with his hard earned cash and gave it to him at Thanksgiving and taught him to say the name of the school over and over again. Fortunately, if they couldn't before all the rest of the California relatives can say the name of the school now as well.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the great comments. Yes, I am also aware of the fabulous deals at really fine private colleges.And that is what we also are taking advantage of. But, you know, the conversation goes like this,
"You got into so and so !"
"Yeah, but I'm going to -----.(little college no one head of)They gave me a big scholarship." -And the second sentence is said almost like an apology. It's a little embarassing, like, why does one have to explain oneself?</p>
<p>my son turned down a full ride at an excellent school in order to attend a $40K/year school with no fin aid at all. It was a difficult decision that the entire family agonized over. We are fortunate to be in a position where the expensive school was doable (single child, both parents with good jobs). But life would certainly be easier in some respects, and retirement woul be coming sooner, if he had taken the full-ride. He knows some other students who took the same offer he passed up who are very happy with their decisions. I would not consider it "selling out" at all if son had done the same, although I think the school he attends is the best possible place for him..</p>
<p>Great discussion! Loved the stories of the kids who graduated debt-free and went on to great grad schools...very encouraging!</p>
<p>Thanks much for the info on PSAT testing! Now I just have to research the whole ACT thing and SAT II that were mentioned since I'm not even sure what they are! (I did go to college, lol, just don't recall any of that!). We've got the SAT thing down pat since son already did it, but now need to check out these other deadlines, requirements, etc....esp since son is taking some 10th/11th grade courses in 9th grade...don't want to miss something...
Thanks again.</p>
<p>we have had the opposite experience in our family
( to the school name thing)
with my inlaws at least-
for xample
when we were having a tough time financially when our youngest was small- I mean really tough- our inlaws bought very expensive presents for her- this was at a time when we were all but going to the food bank- we asked if they could either buy something she needed or give her savings bonds instead and they said " you aren't going to make her go to college are you?"
Since she went private school K-12 and our D2 attended private K-2 - lots of comments about people who think they are "too good" for public school.
Then their only other grandchild went to a community college- which is fine- she is in a voc program- but we are still "full of ourselves" because our D1 is in a 4 year college out of state- Prrivate " couldn't she go to the UW? or WSU?"
Thank goodness they had barely heard of her school- if she had applied to someplace that they considered to be academically challenging- we would never hear the last of it</p>
<p>In our case the decision to go the full-ride vs. scholarship at Cal was a matter of the expectations we had previously set with our D. In other words, given my background, I'd been lauding the virtues of my home Ivy for years. Plus father's estate planning gave us the wherewithal to send D to said Ivy if she was accepted. So when she was accepted, and she preferred it to Cal, to back out at that point would have been inexcusable.</p>
<p>However, knowing what I know now, my lead up to the college moment might have been different, the colleges she applied to might have been different, and perhaps, although we will never know, she would have chosen to have the tuition money in the bank instead of her four years at the Ivy.</p>
<p>In my heart, I loved my Ivy experience. But I can image having loved a different school too, and what it would have been like to have the money in the bank instead.</p>
<p>It does have to be about the values of the family. And the resources of the family. The only thing I don't like to hear about is the families who can afford to send their kids to a full pay place, the kids love the full pay place, and for some reasons the family doesn't want to commit to education as the first priority and didn't manage to communicate that to the kid.</p>
<p>That goes against my personal values. And seems unfair. But hey, we're a democracy.</p>
<p>I think at cc we should make a new decal for those who shun the usual decal producers. I just can't think of what it would say....</p>
<p>
[Quote]
The only thing I don't like to hear about is the families who can afford to send their kids to a full pay place, the kids love the full pay place, and for some reasons the family doesn't want to commit to education as the first priority and didn't manage to communicate that to the kid.</p>
<p>That goes against my personal values. And seems unfair.
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>Here's another take on that:
I was speaking to a young multi-millionaire friend of mine who actually wrote a book on raising teens (one of his businesses was a teen achievement program). He told me that when he was applying to college he was choosing between a prestigious private or a full ride at local state U (not one of the top ones either). His wealthy dad told him it was his choice, but he just needs to decide how to pay for it. Needless to say he attended the state U and achieved success totally on his own. He recommended I take the same approach as his dad, but my values are more like yours.</p>
<p>This takes us to the debate on whether it's better to prepare kids for the toughness of the real world by standing by them in the shallow end of the pool or by throwing them in the deep end. Either way I am sure can be successful, depending on the temperament of the kid and parents. The "dyad", as my brother the Winnicott devotee psychologist would say....You just have to hope you don't have a shallow end mom and a deep end kid, or a deep end dad and a shallow end kid.</p>
<p>For any well-meaning person trying to give a family "outside" advice, the truth is, one size does not fit all. Some students will only be motivated by a degree they can claim to earn & thus "own" independent of parental $$, decision, advice, pressure, etc. Others will only do well if they don't have to worry about a significant amt. of time management along with school, and/or extending their undergrad schooling due to considerable employment needs & other conflicts. For example, students with some kind of learning differences become very anxious about time organization, which directly interferes with their learning & subject mastery & performance. Reducing the available time to study does not solve that problem, btw. They do not "fit" the needed studying into those hours any better than if they had "unlimited" time.</p>
<p>There are many factors to consider when weighing whether a student should "earn" his/her way.</p>