My d attended a PAHS and it was hard to get her to expand her list outside the “usual suspects” which are all extremely competitive for admission.
You may want to get your d a subscription to Dramatics! magazine, put out by the Educational Theatre Association (the Thespian Society). Each issue (especially the June issue that is associated with the annual Festival) has lots of attractive ads from a wide range of colleges that may help expand your d’s interest in programs that are not discussed in her daily circle. If you can get her to at least look through a few issues, it may spur some interest in schools she is not familiar with that may be good choices for her to consider. You can subscribe even if your d is not a Thespian member.
They usually have several articles during the year about preparing for college auditions.
I agree with @EmsDad Dramatics magazine is very useful.
I also was thinking what @soozievt said about auditioning straight out of high chair school… I would hesitate to do that since you would be competing against a LOT of really stellar performers right out of BFA BA prorgams with training etc. i mean plus you’d be very young and inexperienced.
I think it comes down to making sure you have good safeties with strong BA programs. That way she’ll at least get to practice her craft while getting a good education and maturing before she hits the bricks.
Agree with the not auditioning immediately - one of D1’s (BFA 2017) friends commented recently after leaving an audition in NYC - “we are REALLY young.”
For grades, In a sense I am “doing this over” with D2 - she is taking a few select AP’s that she really wanted to take, and making better grades/having less stress than D1 did. Their high school really pushes “advanced with honors” diplomas (very rigorous & lots of APs) but we found out the hard way that the B’s in AP classes brought down the unweighted GPA. Many schools have hard lines of what they will accept for academic scholarships & even though D1 had very good ACT/SAT scores, the unweighted GPA kept her from getting more money at some of her schools.
And @owensfolks’ D is doing a gap year & already has several acceptances!
Speaking of APs…does anyone know if it counts against you if your school doesn’t offer APs?
My D’s situation: she attends a private school that only offers 2 AP classes (Art History and one other class that she wouldn’t take) and no honors classes. They do offer Online AP classes through some partnership with an online company, but they cost quite a bit extra over and above the already expensive tuition we are paying.
So…does anyone know if we don’t do the online AP classes, will my D be at a disadvantage at schools like NYU, Michigan, etc? I had always heard that if your school doesn’t offer them it doesn’t count against you…but does the fact that they offer them online muddy the situation? Even if she wanted to take them, I’m not sure that online classes would be well-suited to my D’s learning style…especially given the additional rigors of an AP class.
@muttsandMT All I can say about this is a “school profile” of your high school is sent to each college you apply to along with your transcript which outlines what your high school looks like in regards to courses offered, range of gpa, etc. So the college would know AP’s were not a big offering at your school.
@vpvpbp’s post is spot on. Your high school profile accompanies the transcript to each college and a student’s course selection’s rigor is interpreted within the context of what that high school offers. Students are not penalized for not taking AP classes if their high school does not offer them.
Just as an example, I’ll use my own two kids. At the time they attended their high school, a rural public high school, the highest level courses were Honors and only one AP course was offered, AP Calculus. My kids took the hardest classes available (and then some), meaning they were in all Honors classes throughout high school and took AP Calculus in junior year. They also accelerated in some subjects. One D, who ran out of math classes for senior year, took an online AP Calculus BC class (which by the way, she never took math in college but these two years of Calculus counted for her requirements for grad school admissions). My other D had taken an online college level essay writing course in 8th grade. She also went into the high school while in middle school (which are both attached) for Creative Writing and for a Shakespeare course with the twelfth grade. Both kids also took high school level math and French while in middle school. Both kids also did various independent studies. One D had run out of French classes by 11th grade and did independent study French 6 in senior year. Older D landed at an Ivy. Younger D (MT) graduated high school early and landed at NYU/Tisch. The lack of AP designated courses at our high school did not impede their college admissions results.
^^^^ agree with above regarding AP. This is my second round of college process. In all the college administration events all said the same thing. They look at “rigor” of your academics. If you school offered 20 AP classes and you took 3 that is different than if you school offered 5 and you took 3. First D was a normal academic process vs D2 which is now MT. Not sure how much AP matters for the overall admissions other than merit $, honors programs, etc. Plus, depending on where she gets in, it could count for Core classes and free up some space for elective(s).
I already knew about the school profile thing, so I hadn’t worried much about this issue in the past. However, and I guess I should’ve said this before, as a new thing this year with the school’s “partnership” with this online company (Hybrid Learning Consortium), if you take one of the AP courses (or any course) through this partner company, it will appear on your transcript as though you actually took the class at the school, even though you didn’t. Does that make sense? I’m worried that this may impact the school profile.
It really bothers me that they’re doing this, because as I said, it already costs a lot of money to attend this school…and now they’re adding these “optional online classes” (that will supposedly appear as though you actually took them at the school) on top of that at a significant extra cost. Maybe it shouldn’t bother me (the world isn’t fair, after all), but it does. I hope that there is some way the colleges will know that these classes weren’t actually taken at the school.
There are kids from my D’s school every year who get accepted to places like Michigan and NYU, but I have no idea if they have taken these online AP classes or not (and of course the transcript thing is new this year). I’ve tried to poke around and find out, but no luck so far. The counselor thus far has been unwilling to share that information, even though I haven’t asked about a specific kid, but rather just generally.
@muttsandMT - you may want to ask the guidance counselor at your school about that. I believe that on the form that they fill out for common app - there is a place to check for “most rigorous curriculum”. What each school means by that varies. At the school where I teach a student needs to have taken a certain number of AP classes to get that - but every school varies
Strange system indeed. When a school has no or few AP classes, you’re really comparing apples to oranges (vs. ones that have many). Through no fault of their own, the kid hasn’t taken APs. Let’s say s/he’s a 4.0 student. One thing AP classes help discern is the kid’s ability to do college level work (at least freshmen yr - higher level courses should be way harder than anything a high school AP class provides). If they don’t take any , again not their fault, how does the elite college gauge their abilities and chances for success (other than than SAT / ACT) compared to other students? I guess they do the best that they can. There’s no perfect system…and life isn’t fair.
My S came from a high school that had very little history of sending kids out of state. Interesting because it’s the best academic high school in our county which is the 9th largest school district in the country (Tampa). However, it is a Public Charter originally designed to give inner city kids a better chance at going to college. Many kids are first time college students in their families. Has 100% college placement (for several yrs). What was a little gem of a secret now has a 600+ student waiting list (Only has 600 students). But there is no track record or relationship with the elite schools. They don’t come to visit, GC office doesn’t promote them, etc. Most yrs the Valedictorian goes to state flagship, mainly because they don’t know about other choices. Some of these kids would get a full ride elsewhere but state flagship is great, especially considering they’re the first int heir family to go. My point is that the reputation of the school does have some impact. Pipeline are pipelines. Harder to have to start from scratch but someone will break through. Son’s class was first to send kids to some great schools.
@toowonderful I think you’re right…I think I’m going to have to get a little more pointed with the questions to my D’s guidance counselor. I was reluctant to do that because I suspect she already thinks I’m a bit hyper, but the squeaking wheel gets the grease, lol. My D is only in 10th grade now so there is still time to “change course”, so to speak, with respect to these online APs. I’m still very skeptical about them though…I took APs myself back in the day, and I’m just not convinced yet that you can get as much of the support and instruction you need in an online version…they were hard enough having the teacher right there in the room! But perhaps I have an outdated view of online classes, and maybe someone out there has a positive experience about online APs that they’d feel comfortable sharing.
@rickle1 , I agree it’s a weird system. When we were researching this school for my D, I actually saw that it’s fairly common for some of the “prep school” type schools to not have APs, and for them it’s a philosophical decision…they feel that their classes already offer either equal or equivalent rigor to the APs, and they don’t like being limited in what they teach by what the AP board tells them to teach (at least, that’s the argument as I understand it). My D’s school has a similar philosophy, and in fact they claim that their students routinely take the AP tests, despite their classes not technically being APs, and pass them with 5’s. But from what I understand, just passing the test isn’t the same as taking the class. Without divulging too much, my D’s school is a PA school, and they have a lot of kids who go on to conservatories, and I’m told they also typically have around 50-60 per year who end up at Michigan or NYU (across all arts disciplines). BUT, the school is also very open about the fact that if you’re aiming to attend an Ivy League school (which my D isn’t), you will HAVE to supplement their offerings with online classes because theirs won’t cut it.
@muttsandMT I’m reading through everything above and I can tell you the answer in 1 sentence. It doesn’t matter - this is MT. What does matter is what happens in the audition room. My daughter goes to U Mich and was accepted to NYU with a hefty scholarship. She was a very good student with very good ACT scores. She took only one AP course (at a private school with a ton of AP options). The AP was in Music Theory (she has also played the piano since 2nd grade). Yes I believe taking that particular AP and being a musician strengthened her candidacy but we can also tell you, now that we have first hand knowledge of the other students, that stellar academics is not what it is all about. Some have scores that would never admit them if they were just applying as regular students to these universities but they are amazing dancers (former Billy Elliots) and vocalists. MT is all about what you do in the room.
I don’t think one can conclude that the rigor of a course in one school that doesn’t use the AP designation or offer many, if any, AP classes is not as strong as an AP class at a different school, as far as a generalization. Within one school, yes, if there is an AP course in a subject, it is going to be more rigorous than that course offered as a non-AP class in the very same school. Speaking of my daughters’ high school, which as I already wrote on this thread, at the time they attended, only had one AP course (Calculus), the highest level courses in all other subjects were labelled Honors. And these were indeed rigorous. They simply don’t teach to an exam. These courses used primary sources, not text books. My kids had to write a LOT, more than I have seen from many students I work with around the country in my work as a college counselor. My kids were well prepared for their selective colleges (Brown and NYU). I recall that both kids told us that in their respective courses at their universities, they each had a professor single out their papers to the class as exemplary. My kid at Brown won the highest award in her department at graduation from college. My kid at Tisch received significant scholarships upon entering and the university nominated her for a national award upon graduating, which she won. I am ONLY relating those tidbits to say that I believe the rigor of my kids’ high school Honors class at a no-name rural public high school prepared them just fine for very selective colleges. Our high school doesn’t even send everyone to college! If I recall, only 66% went on to four year colleges. And yes, there is no pipeline to the highly selective colleges from our high school. They also don’t have drama classes by the way. Anyway, it didn’t hurt my kids one bit. They went to where they wanted to go and both were accepted at the majority of the schools (quite selective academically or were BFA in MT programs) they applied to. The key is not AP classes. The key on the academic front is to take the most rigorous classes your school offers and to challenge yourself, and of course, do well in the courses and ALL the other factors it obviously takes to get into college. Make the most of the opportunities where you are located and seek out and create opportunities where they may not exist. I don’t at all agree that there is some unfairness that kids who went to a high school without AP classes were accepted when someone who went to a high school with AP classes and took them did not. There is just way more to it. And as someone else posted, there are elite prep and boarding schools (I have some clients who attend those) that offer very rigorous courses but not with the AP designation.
I think the notion that it is ALL about what you do in the audition room is not accurate as it is too general. It differs among the BFA in MT schools too much. At some schools, yes, the academic and artistic admission is one decision. At others, it is bifurcated and separate and a student must be admitted to the university in itself, not just the program. Granted, many of the BFA in MT programs are located within colleges that are not super selective academically. But it really doesn’t work the same at all colleges. For example, at NYU, 50% of the admissions is academic (all the pieces that go with that) and 50% is artistic review. You have to pass on both fronts, and NYU as a university is pretty selective. At some schools, the audition is the main thing (ie., CMU).
In my work with MT applicants, I have had some with very low academic profiles who would not be admissible at certain MT colleges, and their college list needed to be created accordingly. I think it is unwise to make a college list simply based on which schools offer MT. When I help a student create a college list for MT, I examine their academic qualifications and chances as well as look at the artistic odds, and of course, fit.
With regard to U of Michigan, it is also a pretty selective university. I’m sure the MT program can pull for a student with admissions there, but I think they do seek out strong students academically and say so. Your own daughter, by your admissions is a very good student and with very good test scores (and obviously very talented as well). When you say you know other students at Michigan that you state had scores that would never admit them if they had not been BFA applicants…I think we cannot know the full picture…test scores are JUST ONE piece of an application and unless you were privy to their entire application, such as grades, level of courses taken, recommendations, essays, activities/achievements, etc., there is no way to analyze it like this because colleges like UM use holistic admissions and don’t admit strictly by some GPA and SAT/ACT cut off. I’m going to make a guess that these students’ scores were not below the national average, which may be on the low side for Michigan, but still within their posted range of test scores. The students may have been strong on all other fronts and their test scores were on the lower end for Michigan but within the range they accept. Even for the BFA program, the college knows the student has to be able to have the requisite work ethic, as well as be able to succeed in the liberal arts classes they will also have to take at this challenging university. Michigan even before they had prescreens like they do now, would screen the application academically in order to invite those who were viable candidates academically to audition. Not all applicants passed that academic screening, in fact. So, it did matter just to get INTO the audition room at the time. I would not say that academics don’t matter. Yes, the audition is the big piece, but not the only piece of the admissions decision. Then, there is also the issue of scholarships. That is not a small issue, and academics matter there of course.
Sounds like for the BFA programs that rely most heavily on auditions you could make the comparison of an athlete being recruited to a highly selective school. Not slamming the athletes here, just making a point. Say a football player at Duke just had to have “enough” academic ability for the coach to pull for his admission. I’m sure they’re not taking kids who are going to flunk out, but certainly wouldn’t get in without being recruited for their sport. Sounds like a similar situation.
Funny, my oldest was the athlete and could have played DII or DIII baseball but decided he didn’t really care about that and wanted to focus on academics (he’s a very smart kid) and attends a highly selective school (and plays Club Baseball to get his fix). Who knew D would be the one (decent but not special student) to go down this path? She’s all in so we’ll see where that takes her.
Almost everything @actorparent1 said is true! She definitely did break her foot during a dance call at Millikin. (And they really didn’t do crap to help … take that for what you will.) She went straight from the audition to the emergency room and right to her home theatre right on time for sound check for Drood that night. Kid’s a trooper for sure.
She did have one acceptance (she was on hold actually) but kept wanting to get out there and have it FEEL right. We drove all over the country that year and I would do it again in a heartbeat … and she eventually fell in love at Nebraksa Wesleyan from the second her feet hit the theatre floor. It’s a great fit for her and she’s THRIVING. Her resume is CRAZY … she’s played two mainstage leads this past fall semester … let’s just say she’s not being typecast.
Now, I ran the numbers as best I could several years back and could not find a single school that had an acceptance rate above 10-20%. And I think I was being generous. My oldest is a Vanderbilt and for her gaining admission to that elite school was a literal walk in the park compared to my MT BFA kid.
Audition at the big flashy schools. And audition at the smaller out of the way programs as well. Some kids are born for Tisch … and some kid bloom out in the middle of Nebraska. And someimes it’s not the one you’d think!
Best luck & lots of broken legs!! I’d give anything to be on your path again as more than 1/2 my collge kids career is over.
Exactly how I felt when my son’s high school sports career ended. So much fun going all over the place with summer showcase tournaments, fall practice leagues and of course the main baseball season in the spring. Whole team was a family. Tears in my eyes when S told them all how honored he was to share the field with them (senior night) the past four yrs.
I know this will be a lot of work for D. She’s all in and I love that. Looking forward to the journey. Whether she makes it or not, she’s living the life she wants. Lot of music in our house!
