<p>I just wanted to chime in and send you cyber ((((hugs)))). It must be a lot to go through to see your son struggle so. It sounds like he just burned out from all the pressure to succeed. I think there is just too much emphasis in our society placed on "success" in school. It really is much more important that he is happy and healthy and a good person. That is what I stress with my kids. As others have said...he will find his way as long as he has you as a support system. Just be there for him and love him no matter what and everything will work out in the long run.</p>
<p>I can relate. Agree with mini and garland. It is NOT easy to find the support for these particular issues at some of the Ivy schools. Most of the students do an amazing job of posturing and your kid feels like the only one who is struggling emotionally or dissatisfied with the experience. Sure- you can get tutoring and other academic guidance, but finding a support system for the basic "I hate it here and it isn't right for me" issues is difficult.<br>
Your son did the right thing for himself. I would not want to see him go back to his Ivy, but perhaps after some time passes and recovery occurs, there might be a better choice for him, such as a strong state university.
I encouraged my son to transfer to a state u after freshman year (he hated his Ivy). He managed to regroup and fix things for himself (no academic issues) at the Ivy and had a much better experience soph year, but the option of leaving was completely OK with me. There are many ways to be successful, and your son will find his path.</p>
<p>frand....I sent you a PM.</p>
<p>A good student will thrive at any decent school. Some people try to use the fact that some (not all) of the Ivies have a slightly higher percentage of their graduates finding their way into prestigious positions than other schools as justification for saying that therefore X school is better than Y school. However, of course that's a circular argument since obviously if the school is very selective in only choosing high achievers it's that's going to directly translate down the line in relation to schools with slightly broader applicant pools. </p>
<p>A top student will succeed and go onto greatness from any decent school, not just the most expensive ones... although don't try telling that to a family that just decided to invest six figures to secure 'prestige' for their child. </p>
<p>If someone truly has what it takes to succeed, they will do so regardless of the name on their degree.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, OP, the CEO of my Fortune 300 company (25K employees world-wide) does not recruit at the Ivies. He believes students there graduate with a feeling of entitlement. Yes, that's a controversial belief with which I do not agree (nor disagree, I'm not in the position to judge.) Our company recruits from very good, but second-tier universities, and they look for self-directed 'hungry' candidates. Many of those recruits have gone on to million-dollar salaries. </p>
<p>There are SO many different paths to success (even in the most materialistic sense of the word.)</p>
<p>What's more important, a kid who's alive, successfully going to college (any college), and getting a degree, or one who's deeply depressed at an Ivy League school where he clearly was miserable, therefore unsuccessful? Putting prestige in front of mental health could end in a result that would really come back to haunt his parents in the worst sense of the word. I think what matters most in the long run is not where you go to school, but who you end up being. I know many brilliant high school students who did not end up becoming what everyone thought they would. One's happiness and success in life doesn't hinge on being NMF, having a 5.0 GPA, or being a Harvard grad. Without emotional stability all of that can go right out the window. If the son is doing well at the "small local college", that's a hundred times better than bombing at the "intense Ivy league engineering program". The parents may never know what really happened there, and maybe they shouldn't. At 20, a lot of stuff happens. Sometimes I think we push these kids with our own agendas in mind, and forget that they are people with their own awareness of what they can handle. If I had been pushed as much as some kids that I know, I would have run away from home.</p>
<p>katliamom,
Does your company want to hire my son? Stand out student at a second tier school. Hungry as all get out.<br>
Just kidding but you make a great point...Not every employer looks for the Ivy degree.</p>
<p>Hello to all of the posters that replied to my OP. I am so impressed with the depth of caring that I find on this site - it my goal to contribute in the same way to other parents on the site.
So many of you have already confirmed what I know in my heart. My son is alive and getting well and that is what is most important. Something traumatic happened to him at the Ivy (yes, we may never know what and it was probably a combination of things) and he was not secure or self confident enough (or overconfident?) to seek the help he needed. I'm sure that the help was there somewhere. Yes, water under the bridge.
I have to get over mourning the loss of 'path not taken'. I bring to the equation the fact that he is now going to the college that I graduated from because my parents could not afford the Ivy and I paid for my own education. I am doing well, but the intangibles at the upper tier schools are not to be dismissed and do add value to future success.
So, it is good to see my son taking matters into his own hands and happy to be successful. He does, however still use his Ivy email address so I am sure that there is some sense of loss for him too. He is in counseling, it is a slow road.
I knew that if I brought this topic to the CC parents I would receive anecdotes that support my son and I am very, very grateful for the reassurance and for pushing me to be aware that what is most imporant is that I be sensible and non-judgemental. Please know that you are all wonderful - the variety of view points and the obvious honesty apparent in the posts is fantastic. Each post has an important perspective. You provide a service to other parents that is much appreciated, and again, I look forward to repaying in kind some day.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are SO many different paths to success.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Exactly right. I have 2 relatives who are grads from lower tier schools. One graduated from a lower ranked SUNY and the other graduated from a 3rd tier private. Both have a amazing jobs. </p>
<p>The Suny grad spent 6 mos. working as a cashier, and then he landed a sales job at a small company. That company had a display at a convention. A company rep. from another company, who was in a hiring capacity, saw how he worked at the convention. He said that he did not care what he was earning, and he would beat that salary if he would come and work for him. This relative has stayed with that company for over 25 years and has done very well.</p>
<p>The relative who graduated from the third tier private got his first job through a neighbor of a college friend. He kept changing jobs, but stayed in one field of work (using job placement companies) going to the highest bidder, until he worked his way up the ladder. The first 2 or 3 years he seemed to be in different job every 3-6 months. He has stayed with his last company for several years because he is very well paid. He recently transferred within that company to a place where the cost of living is lower, and his salary stayed the same.</p>
<p>Frankly, I think that that there are Ivy grads that would love to be in those jobs.</p>
<p>Frand, I cross posted with you.</p>
<p>I'll re-post two posts from another related thread, just to give the OP some assurance that her kid can (will!) finish strong.</p>
<p>First post:
I usually avoid discussions that argue the merits of an elite education vs. non-elite, but Im going to jump into this one because Im very qualified to add value.</p>
<p>Im currently a senior executive with a Fortune 500 firm. </p>
<p>When I recruit for a top-level management position I first look at a persons resume. </p>
<p>When someone below me in the organization recruits for a mid-level position, they first look at a persons resume.</p>
<p>When HR recruits for any position they first look at an applicants resume.</p>
<p>The idea that the differentiating point on anybodys resume, for any job, is where they went to college is absurd, and frankly, disturbing in terms of what it is doing to our children and our culture.</p>
<p>For an entry level job, if you attended ASU (just to use an example), were in their honors program, spent a year abroad, were successful in one internship and had a reference to back that up, maybe fluent in one foreign language, or had played one sport (not necessarily at the varsity or DI level), or had worked to put yourself through college, read books for a hobby, knew the names of your home states senators and showed up to your interview on time, well prepared, dressed appropriately, knowledgeable about my company, goals in mind, and you convinced me (or HR) that you were the one for the job, the job is yours.</p>
<p>For a mid-level job, you would need the above plus years of consistent, successful work experience.</p>
<p>For a senior level position, you need all of the above, plus remarkable talent and drive.</p>
<p>If you attended Harvard, got in as an athlete admit, or because your Grandfather knew the Dean of Admissions, or because your parents were potentially big donors to the university, and you spent four unremarkable years at Harvard and then expected the world to be your oyster nah. Pass. Many HYP graduates dont have the common sense and people skills required to work as successful team members. Perhaps they could be great researchers, writers or professors, but after years of experience, Ive seen many fail in the corporate world. </p>
<p>When you perpetuate the myth that where you go to college matters, all youre doing is allowing top-tier schools to rake in more application fees from all the unwitting high school seniors and their parents who buy into the notion that their college will determine the outcome of their life. </p>
<p>Two steps off the stage at college graduation, and the life you get is up to you.</p>
<p>I wish parents would spend more time emphasizing the rewards of effort and ethical behavior, and less time about the perceived value of a degree from xyz Ivy League school. I wish parents cared about how kind and thoughtful their children were, and cared less about saying My kid got into Yale. Wed all be better off if they did.</p>
<p>Not quite as drastic, but my son dropped out of a first-tier LAC after 2 years, took a 3-year hiatus, then finished up lower-tier in-state public (a CSU). At the CSU, he ended up with an opportunity -- a fully funded congressional internship -- that it is unlikely he would have qualified for at a more competitive college. Obviously that doesn't hurt his resume; he lined up a job with a decent salary, great benefits, within 2 weeks of graduating. </p>
<p>It really is NOT about the name on the degree or who is impressed by it, but about finding one's own niche. My son has considered law school, and I will agree that it would be difficult for him to get admitted to a top private law school with his CSU degree -- but I'm sure that if he has strong LSAT's he would be able to get into any of the public law schools in our state.</p>
<p>Number two:</p>
<p>Flight delayed six hours. You guys are keeping me company.</p>
<p>Im going to go at this issue from another angle (I always prided myself on being an excellent communicator. You guys have me rethinking that.) Its off the original topic so I apologize in advance.</p>
<p>Five years ago I started to hear from mid-level managers in my organization that they were having a hard time finding or identifying talent. No one was pushing the panic button, but it seemed odd that a company like ours (we choose you, you dont choose us) would have this problem.</p>
<p>Now, the panic button is being pushed.</p>
<p>Talented people are MIA. We cant fill the seats. We cant find our rising stars. We are considered one of the top companies to work for. We look within and without. Mentors are eager and waiting to help out. HR organizes so many leadership training talks and seminars and off-sites I get dizzy thinking about it. Yet, we cant identify these people. Whered the talented people go?</p>
<p>My sense is that our pool of eager, bright and well-educated employees/recruits is missing the ability to successfully fail or fail successfully. This group hates to fail. They will avoid looking bad at all costs. They have all the knowledge and all the ability in the world, but they cant/wont assume the risk involved in taking the lead. They dont initiate; they follow. Leaders accept risk and move forward. </p>
<p>One thought: this next generation-after X before Z-has been given so many opportunities, so many enriched experiences, so many pats on the back and unearned rewards that they are emotionally ill- equipped for work-world reality. (Doesnt anyone else find it horrifying that you basically cant fail out of a top-tier school? What does that say to a student?)</p>
<p>The few truly talented people I can readily identify in my division have been knocked down more than once. They have had to be creative and they have had to ask for help. Given their backgrounds, they embrace risk and change and they love to help others succeed. Their goals are ever changing as the organization's needs change. They understand the risk/reward nature of work and life. They do great work, but they look at work differently than most of their contemporaries. They fail, and they dont blame others when it happens. Theyve failed before and lived to tell about it and they will do it again. </p>
<p>The current college acceptance mania could be the birth of this reluctance to fail. We reward not failing with the trophy of acceptance into HYP. Kids are perfectionists before they enter ninth grade. I know kids who are in such an extracurricular frenzy they dont have time to think, they just do. They do so many things it boggles my middle-aged mind, but they dont seem to enjoy the activities they are engaged in and they certainly dont learn from them. These are just activities to get them the big trophy. In so many ways we arent rewarding the right things and the results, seen from my very-corporate view, are coming home to roost.</p>
<p>I completely understand parents desire to provide their child with the best opportunities and the most options. Im just not sure that not having those things wont prove to be more valuable to most people in the long run.</p>
<p>I feel like everyone is in this same sinking boat, and we should put our oars together and figure out how to develop sane, functional, talented human beings. We can value the school someone goes to, or we can value the person they become while going there. We can keep turning teenagers into manic, tired prize winners, or we can nurture and encourage them to develop depth, values and a sense of selflessness. </p>
<p>So, I believe the OP has had her question answered, but the larger Public Service Announcement cant be made enough times: outside of a few professions and a few companies (great orgs like Bain inhale Ivy grads), where you obtain your undergraduate degree doesnt matter. </p>
<p>Thats it. Oh, and please, someone, fix the airline industry its such a mess.</p>
<p>So, to the OP I would say have your student do the very best work possible. Get a great internship, or join VISTA for a year, or anything else that says I’m capable, strong and interesting. From an applicant like your son I would LOVE to hear why he left his first school, and what he learned from the change. Everything is spin so to speak, and your son has an interesting story to tell. </p>
<p>This is a smart, talented and resilient young man. Long-term….I’d bet on this horse any day!</p>
<p>Hang in there, and best wishes.</p>
<p>I just want to post a contrarian view of this. As a community college transfer to an elite university, I am well aware of the contrast in opportunities available to people with fancy credentials and people without. </p>
<p>I vote for your son going back to the Ivy League.</p>
<p>I would suggest that he rest up, get back on track emotionally, and then go back to school. He should try a different, non-engineering major, minor in engineering, or perhaps design an individual major that will let him do some engineering classes but not an entire degree.</p>
<p>The Ivy degree makes a lot of opportunities easier to get (and he won't have to explain the story over and over about how he transferred to a local school). It's one thing to make the most of every opportunity, prestigious or not, but another to let go of a prestigious opportunity that you already have. I don't think that academic and personal struggles are a good reason to let go of these benefits, when it's possible to solve these problems and go back with renewed focus. He got into the school, he deserves to go there, and he can go there --- as soon as he reframes his purpose and creates a new plan.</p>
<p>I disagree with the above poster. Mental health is so much more important than prestige and economic success. Lots of great posts on here, esp Mini, Garland and MOWC. Good luck to you and your family, OP.</p>
<p>I don't have a strong opinion on what the student should do. I think the options should be laid out on the table, and he can decide what is out there. Perhaps presenting the option of returning to the original school with a revised major is one of those options. He can go back there for one semester and apprise the situation there with his new major. If he still does not like the place, he can go back to his local school. Or he can just forget the original school and move forward.<br>
Some of these schools with the diversity and high achieving kids have the wrong atmosphere for some kids. If this is the case, it is not a good idea for your student to stay at his original school. It just might not be the right mix and atmosphere for him. However, the change in the course of studies can make a difference if that was the source of problems there.</p>
<p>Congrats to the OP for recognizing and acknowledging all the different thoughts and emotions running through her & her family at this time. It's always bittersweet to have things not turn out quite as we had anticipated.</p>
<p>I really wouldn't sweat about things. It sounds like your child is on the right path for him. My friend's D was at UC Berkeley & had a very traumatic experience & came home & wouldn't talk about it. She didn't want to leave the house or be alone or with anyone other than family for a very long time. She gradually began to heal and decided to enroll in the local college and has gradually found her way and is now happy & healthy, has a very nice boyfriend, & just graduated in her chosen field and has been offered a job she's looking forward to with a good salary.</p>
<p>Her family is relieved and we as her friends are too. </p>
<p>Another friend's D got into a college 3000 miles from HI with signficiant merit & financial aid, but just before school began decided she couldn't handle it & returned home. She refused to leave the house for about 18 months, but now has enrolled in the local U where she is doing great academically, even tho it is a commuter school & she could attend a much more rigorous academic environment.</p>
<p>I guess, what I'm clumsily saying, is that we can do our best but ultimately, our kids' find their own paths and things do work out. Sometimes they don't turn out as we envisoned, but they DO turn out. There are many different paths and taking indirect routs can strengthen us. That has certainly been the case in our family & with many of my friends.</p>
<p>I will post a contrarian opinion to the contrarian opinion posted by returningstudent.</p>
<p>You are a student. I’m sure from your perspective the opportunities offered by an Ivy diploma seem worth whatever effort and money you are spending to obtain one.</p>
<p>From my perspective-you know, the one that sees the outcome— the mania surrounding acceptance into the Ivy League is more destructive than helpful, more nonsensical than based in reality, more shallow than thoughtful. When comparing first-tier grads to any other tier, I just don’t see the value. Long term, it just doesn’t play out the way people seem to hope it will. And I’m not alone in my views. I recently had a confab with two peers at other organizations and we were all in basic agreement about this issue.</p>
<p>I don’t want to crush anyone’s post-college hopes and dreams, but those of us who do the hiring may NOT be looking at your sparkling Yale or where ever diploma and automatically offering you a seat at our table. Our hiring perspective is becoming, dare I say, enlightened…broadened...by our experience with new recruits. Whatever it is taking to get into YHP these days isn’t creating the flexible, curious, creative thinkers/leaders I need to hire to win the game. </p>
<p>Sorry, but that’s my take on things.</p>
<p>I didn't attend an Ivy League school, but I graduated from a similar school (Northwestern) and I will tell you that no matter what, if the school is not a perfect fit for the student, he or she will struggle and easily succumb to depression and nervous breakdowns. I know students who take quarter/semester breaks to refocus their priorities and improve their mental stability. Some students become sick and receive diagnosis of rashes, acid reflux, hives, etc. because the stress is unbearable (they are not even in graduate school yet and already showing physical symptoms of stress!). He or she will thrive in that type of environment that is right for them and the parents should support that. Mental health is more important than achieving some paper that you graduated from HYPPCCB. Being burned out and sickly is not cool at all.</p>
<p>r2dtoo - You're definitely at a good vantage point to understand these things from a higher level, and I appreciate your point of view.</p>
<p>However, the executives of tomorrow will have come of age in this generation, the Ivy-obsessed one. Perhaps there will be a backlash, or perhaps they will just extend the college admissions frenzy forward into their careers. After all, <em>they</em> went to an Ivy college, etc., etc.</p>
<p>I think it's a false dichotomy between mental health and Ivy. With academic and personal counseling, I think her son can have both. Why not enjoy the benefits of Ivy credentials that he earned in high school?</p>