<p>If your child was offered a full tuition scholarship to a mid-level undergraduate university (not bad not great) worth over $120,000 - would you accept the scholarship and forego paying for a mid-level Ivy or a "better" university?</p>
<p>It depends.</p>
<p>I know of several students who have taken such offers because it will enable them and their families to get through their undergraduate years without debt – an important consideration.</p>
<p>In some of these cases, avoiding debt is particularly important because the student anticipates going to medical, law, or veterinary school and knows that there will be additional costs coming up for that stage of their education. Being without debt at the time of college graduation will make the debt that must be incurred for professional school less horrifying. Also, in some of these instances, parents who ended up contributing much less than they had expected to for the students’ undergraduate years have agreed to contribute to the cost of professional school.</p>
<p>On the other hand – for the student who thinks that it is likely that their undergraduate degree is the one with which they will enter their professional career, perhaps the prestige of the degree from the better-known university might be more important than avoiding debt. Also, if that scholarship comes with a very high GPA requirement for keeping it, the pressure on the student might be very great. Both of these considerations apply to students in engineering, for example.</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply. Graduate school is definitely in the cards - but the scholarship also comes with an automatic invitation to the Honors Program. (I’m sure if he is lucky enough to be admitted to the better schools, he will not be afforded a similar opportunity). I’m also sure that he will be maintain the required GPA. My main concern is his likely admission to grad school upon graduation from a mid-level university versus a mid-level Ivy or better school.</p>
<p>It all really depends. The mid-level school could have a program he’s interested in that excels most other schools in that area. The ivy school may have the program, but may not enjoy the same recognition as the mid-level school. Also, most honors programs are nothing to sneeze about. A free ride to an honors program with a strong academic area your son is interested in would be really hard to say no to.</p>
<p>I agree with the above… it’s the terminal degree that counts.</p>
<p>If you’re talking about graduate school meaning a PhD program, the financial picture is different than if you’re talking about law or medical school.</p>
<p>Most PhD students have teaching or research assistantships which pay their tuition and provide a stingy stipend to live on during graduate school. Unlike law or medical students, who pay huge amounts out of pocket, PhD candidates can usually break even during their graduate school years.</p>
<p>
Fine job , marian. Excellent job. I’m undeservedly quite happy to read your response. </p>
<p>All I can add is “be sure you are a kid who can run from the front and still set your best time”, and “if you want to go into Beltway politics, publishing, IB, and a few/some others where UG is the terminal degree and prestige really DOES matter - take the HYPS school and pay the cash.”</p>
<p>Of course, all of this assumes the HYPS school is financially “doable” without crippling the student or their family. If it would be crippling, take the money and feel good about it.</p>
<p>We were in a similar situation to the one described. Child#1 was offered full ride to a large, well-regarded state university. Had also been admitted to a top private with adequate financial aid. Child was leaning to the state school (because it was the “logical” choice") until we went to admitted students open house there. By chance we got into a conversation with a junior who had had a similar decision to make and had chosen the state school for financial reasons. All of the negatives about the school were the kinds of things that would have driven my daughter crazy. We looked at each other and realized that that school was not the place for her. We bit the bullet and sent her to the “better school,” where she had a fabulous experience. Looking back, it was kind of ironic that the only reason we contemplated the state school was the full ride: sort of like her “reward” for excellence would have been to attend her safety. That was our experience and it was the right choice for us. Financially, it was not easy for us, and she graduated with loans, but not everything can be measured in dollars. (She went on to law school, where her loans make her undergrad loans look like pocket change. )</p>
<p>Fiona, you’re comparing a free ride with “adequate financial aid.” How would you have felt if the choice had been between a free ride and a school that offered no financial aid?</p>
<p>We are a few weeks early. The “is it worth it” discussions usually start in early April. No one can answer this question for you. What FAFSA predicts as need is often irrelevant. Some families just cannot afford the EFC or it is just plain not worth it. Here are a few issues besides the financial aspects that you might want to consider:
Are there special programs or advantages to the more expensive, more elite college?
Does you son/daughter do well when pushed by challenge? Do they do well when the challenge is less, but the recognition might be greater?
Is your son/daughter relatively content with the lower/no cost option or do they view this as a major compromise?
Are they willing to take on part of the financial burden with summer jobs, work study and loans?
Is your son/daughter highly motivated academically or do they view an education primarily as preparation for a career? What are the educational goals?</p>
<p>In both cases we took the money or at least one of the top three offers for undergrad. Both kids plan post grad studies. One is in med school now and the bill for that is hefty. A very good thing he has a minimal amount of undergrad debt. He is there with ivy kids, best buddy is a noter damer and several internationals. His med school class is the biggest class he’s ever been in. In college, no class over 20 students. </p>
<p>“be sure you are a kid who can run from the front and still set your best time”,</p>
<p>I agree 100% with curm on this statement… it isn’t going to matter where you kid goes, if they are going to middle pack it. Then maybe an ivy would be better for name dropping. For med school, mine tested against everybody who wanted in and with the flu, finished his exam in the top 10-15%. I am pretty positive that those above him were not all from ivies or other top tiers. </p>
<p>D is in a similar situation and is in her organic chem and some bio class year… so school s ucks right now. No fun, no time, no sleep. The advantage of the smaller school with the solid offer was now she can camp on her professor’s doorstep. </p>
<p>Anyway, I guess there’s no right answer, just yours. For us, taking the money worked. no regrets. except for organic chemistry, but I think it would be that way anywhere. ;)</p>
<p>I guess I should have posted this inquiry in April when all the results are in. However, one positive that I keep coming back to is the honors program. I know that if he is fortunate to be admitted to a better university he would not have this opportunity.</p>
<p>I echo the thoughts that it may depend on the field of study and the quality of program at the State U. My sons are engineers and I see little advantage to most IVY eng degree over many state U’s.</p>
<p>In our case, we did not take the full rides but did take full tuition offers at a top 30 private and a 3rd tier honors college. Both sons are very happy.</p>
<p>I would not take the scholarship route had sons not been comfortable with the school. (unless there were was no other choice financially)</p>
<p>This is such a tough question to deal with as each situation is so different.</p>
<p>There is no question in my mind that, provided there isn’t a specialty area at any Ivy that a student can’t access elsewere you would get a better EDUCATION at a state university honors college IF you also spent the extra $120k saved on education. Two years of medical school; unpaid internships for four years; 5 years working for free in Africa on public health; learning to paint for a year while living in Italy or the south coast of France. The list could go on and on.</p>
<p>The question then is whether you would actually spend the extra $120k (or a certain part of it) on education. If you can’t figure out where you’d spend it, and spend it well, then the issue is a non-starter.</p>
<p>For a top science student, the state university might be better WITHOUT the $120k, if the student would truly be a top student there rather than a middling one at an Ivy. More research opportunities, more internships, better mentoring. 50% of students at an Ivy (or anywhere else) are in the bottom half of their class, and they won’t get the opportunities that the very top students at a state honors program will.</p>
<p>And Marian is right about Ph.D. students: my d. has just been offered a fellowship so large that, given the cost of living and expenses she is likely to incur, she will likely be living better than we do.</p>
<p>“be sure you are a kid who can run from the front and still set your best time”,
Wow with your permission I’m stealing this analogy. I think this is a very important point. For many of us, “our” kids they have been at the top of the pack and never had to run from behind. I remember when I figured out that my S number 1 does much, much better leading the pack. This had a huge bearing on which school he chose. In retrospect, thinking about which sports he continued in, which classes he chose, etc., he actually knew himself better than we did. Unless finances are the number one primary consideration, the nature of the child can absolutely play into the situation and the child might even have a better sense of this than the parent.</p>
<p>What someone said - it is not what is the best choice, but what is best for YOU is so true. </p>
<p>D was faced with the same decision one year ago. She was offered many full rides to state Us and some privates (with amounts as high as the OP’s $120,000) due to NMF status. In the end she chose a top 12 school with a teeny, tiny National Merit scholarship (and a few outside one time scholarships) and hasn’t looked back. I think what tipped the scale was when she met with other NMFs at the “$120,000 scholarship school” who told her that they weren’t thrilled with the classes, they were just there because of the money. The StateU treated her like royalty, driving her around in a car with the school logo on the door from class to class she visited. In the end, she was not impressed by the level of material in the “honors classes” or the level of student “participation” (for lack of a better word). </p>
<p>Even on her worse days, when things are so difficult I wonder how she is doing it, I ask, “Do you want to bolt for the door and head to State U” - she returns with a resounding NO!! She wanted to be challenged - she wanted to be surrounded by professors and students alike who astound her on a daily basis with their intellect, and that is what she got. She does plan (right now) to attend medical school, and if that should change, I am sure she will go to graduate school. The cost of her education will be staggering. We’ve told her that her inheritance will be her education. </p>
<p>Once again, curmudgeon comes up with the perfect words. You have to be able to run at the front of the pack and still give you best effort, AND you have to be okay with being there without much company sometimes. That was our D’s high school experience and I think she simply wanted some like minded peers in college.</p>
<p>My S was different. He ran in the front of the pack from grade sch. until graduation. He chose to go to a state u. (full ride) and turned down the honors invite because he was tired of the “front runner” label. He knew he would still study and make good grades (which he has) but really just wanted to be a part of the regular college crowd at large school with many different kinds of people. He is a jr. and very happy there.</p>
<p>Everyone is different in their college expectations. Try not to be swayed by public opinion and go with your instincts as to what will be the best situation for your needs.</p>
<p>MidwestParent, I appreciate your reply, as I think we will be facing a similar situation in April. I have been going back and forth on whether we really need to visit everywhere she is accepted for a closer look, I guess we do. She really doesn’t want to attend the state school with the full tuition scholarship and honors program, so the choices will be between lesser-ranked schools with partial scholarships and higher-ranked ones with no aid. Graduate school expenses are another factor - I am not thinking that grad schools in her intended field of international relations would provide generous fellowships. It would be nice if that turned out to be wrong!</p>
<p>While an Honors program offer many great things (e.g., priority housing, class registration, parking pass, faculty mentoring, etc.), I don’t think the Honors designation on a transcript in and of itself means that much. For example, a 3.8 gpa and high board scores at mid-tier U will recieve plenty of interviews for top med and law schools regardless of whehter the transcript is stamped ‘honors’. Ditto other grad programs – research and recs are more important than an ‘honors’ stamp. </p>
<p>Just my $0.02.</p>
<p>So what should my son be looking for when he visits the scholarship school in three weeks? I think the suggestion of meeting with other “regular” students is a good idea. He’s already scheduled to have dinner with the president and other faculty members (as well as the other scholarship students). I’m a little surprised that graduating from a honors program will not make a difference when he applies to graduate school. We have three children (one a soph who’s receiving half) and a freshman in high school so he seems to want to lessen our burden.</p>
<p>Ryan, the issue isn’t that graduating from an honors program won’t make a difference… the issue is that so many other factors come into play.</p>
<p>Law school? GPA and LSAT score are the only significant factors at top schools with other elements (EC’s, faculty rec’s, work experience, etc.) as tip factors. Med school? GPA and MCAT scores, with kids who have meaningful relevant experience (research, volunteer experience in public health, paid employment in a related field) having an advantage. B-school? GMAT scores are VERY important; some schools will only consider you after two years of work experience with the type of job VERY important, i.e. finance, consulting, top rated training program in manufacturing, etc.</p>
<p>So in light of all of this- honors programs can be nice, but graduating Phi Beta Kappa is nicer. Being a generic graduate of the honors program isn’t going to get you very far in the absence of the other things that grad schools and employers look for. I work in corporate HR; my company is very sensitive to GPA as being highly correlated with work ethic (a debatable point no doubt, but it does help us cut tens of thousands of resumes down to a workable number.) Being a graduate of an honors program with a 3.0 GPA in general doesn’t get you a second look for most of our entry level/training program type jobs. However, being a 4.0 grad from a college none of us has heard of is also not much of a door-opener.</p>
<p>What should your son look for? A college where he’ll push himself academically, broaden his horizons (and push himself) socially, get access to professors and other mentors, join or start organizations for causes that he cares about… these will make the diffference in the quality of his experience. If the honors program will facilitate all of these than great- if it’s just a way to boost the schools numbers by getting high scoring/high ranked kids to go there when otherwise they wouldn’t consider it, this is a factor worth considering.</p>