<p>Wha? A straw man is when somebody sets up a misrepresentation of the argument and then "defeats" it.</p>
<p>I'm very confused as to how I should take the strawman comment...I don't really think my story was an attempt to appeal based on rhetoric--I was trying to prove a point that saying you absolutely cannot do something is just not true. I actually appreciated that oorah mentioned it was encouraging. </p>
<p>Let's cut through all the B.S. though.</p>
<p>We could keep having a p1ssing contest in terms of who worked the most hours or who gave up the most etc etc, or we could acknowledge two facts</p>
<p>Fact #1: TAP is available to any student who meets minimum academic criteria</p>
<p>Fact #2: I think you make it pretty clear in your post karabear that what's holding you back is your OWN BONDS. In lilxlazyxboi's defense, this is EXACTLY what he was saying: there's no mystical force keeping you from becoming TAP certified. You CHOOSE / Chose not to be.</p>
<p>So having a roof over my head and the means to get an education meant that I chose not get into the program?</p>
<p>Choosing between a program and a means of subsistence is not a choice at all.</p>
<p>now i'll have to compliment your strawman karabear.</p>
<p>Did I establish an ultimatum between subsistence and education? No. The fact that I personally had to make this decision on a very short term basis isn't a fundamental facet to my point: I was proving the capacity of a person's willpower. </p>
<p>Anyways, since you set up your own argument and 'defeated' it, if you will--take your victory. This is obviously a pointless discussion.</p>
<p>Thank you Guyy. That comment will be removed. I was merely making a reference to how active this thread has become. (350 views in one day) Perhaps it is a direct result of it's argumentative nature. I will be more aware of my actions from this point forward.</p>
<p>Edit: I can't edit my old posts... go figure</p>
<p>@kara ...if you're struggling to put a roof over your head then you should work full time first, save up then go to school. (from the perspective of making TAP possible and giving full attention to school basically) There's no way to combat the argument that's you "CAN'T" get TAP if you wanted to. You make your own choices.</p>
<p>Most people who work and go to school full time are doing so because they have bills to pay, food to buy, and a place to live. I doubt many people would do this simply for spare cash. </p>
<p>I did not have a choice regarding how many hours I could work. I had to work that many hours in order to live. In doing that, I could not join the TAP program because all of the honors classes were during the day. In addition, I missed out on many networking opportunities that honors students had access to. </p>
<p>The reason I said your argument was a strawman was because this:
[QUOTE]
When I needed to take day classes at AND generate money, I found a way: I quit my day job and made money by taking side jobs as a mechanic as well as buying and selling car parts.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>is not an option for many people. </p>
<p>In retrospect, I'm sorry I made the strawman comment. I don't want to argue semantics. I'm also sorry I got into the "****ing match" with the lilxlazyxboi. I was trying not to sink to his level, but am finding myself increasingly frustrated. The whole reason for this is lilxlazyxboi's offensive tone in his first post. I think that has been lost in the shuffle of the debate and as I keep getting more frustrated I start taking on a similar tone. </p>
<p>Honestly, I am out of community college and this stuff doesn't really matter to me on a personal level any more. I just see injustices in the system which I wish I could change for others.</p>
<p>I'm sure people no professor will write a non-honors student a letter of recommendation noting the excellence of their work and potential as a student. Working while taking classes might be commendable, but by no means should it represent extra academic talent/potential.</p>
<p>Blah...</p>
<p>I'm done.</p>
<p>Thank you everyone</p>
<p><em>bows</em></p>
<p>"Blah...</p>
<p>I'm done.</p>
<p>Thank you everyone</p>
<p><em>bows</em>"</p>
<p>You fought hard kid.... you fought hard... but that bastard was just too damn fast....</p>
<p>What does it even mean to sink at my level? An argument is an argument regardless of tone. I presented my opinion, you have yours, don't make yourself out to be the bigger man than me. I never even used a single curse word. If you are irked by the word shut up, you are soft. Get used to harsher words in real life that'll come your way. Especially on the internet. I tried to be as articulate as I could without being overly barbaric.</p>
<p>I just find it hilarious you thought "Blah I'm Done" post was necessary.
Your superiority complex and arrogance is very obvious there : ).</p>
<p>Lots of comments... I didn't bother to read the rest because I have a life so this might have already been commented on, but oh well. My two cents:</p>
<p>"Would you bash the advantage that high school AP classes (those that can invest the time to do them) have in college admissions?"</p>
<p>I'm not the OP, but I would use the same logic to criticize the high schoolers with their AP classes as well. This is because those who have taken a load of AP classes had the time, as well as the money (and the extra tutoring classes and the prep books and so on) to take them. It also meant that you had to go to a high school that gave you the opportunity to take on these AP classes.</p>
<p>AP classes are free, and it's not a defensible argument to say that every person who does AP classes even needs tutoring. No one buys prep books as they've taken the class and have "prepped" in class. </p>
<p>Poverty is not an excuse to augment one's academic standing, as there are so many programs for the disadvantaged that if you can't find an alternative to AP classes, chances are you're not looking. Examples include Stanford/JH's online program, the numerous charter schools, and free online materials.</p>
<p>The "you all suck I'm leaving" approach isn't a particularly compelling argument, so I'm dropping that.</p>
<p>I have to agree with Karabear that working full-time does limit opportunities that one may have otherwise. Of course, as some have pointed out, that can be changed to better suit one's academic needs... but let's be fair- some people may really do have circumstances rougher than others. I work full-time as a full-time student and instead of using TAP to bolster my chances (which wouldn't have been possible due to need for full-time work), I used almost any free time I had to commit myself to ECs important to me. I don't resent the system... I just think in any case, just do your best.</p>
<p>No, I think you have to face reality. Sure, some people can be born into poverty and then pick themselves out of it (under very lucky circumstances)... but it is rare. Don't most of the people who get into Harvard have a certain advantage? Money, perhaps? I'm not saying all.</p>
<p>Wait, I've never seen someone of poverty taking advantage of the computer to look at the free online materials in the library... have you?</p>
<p>I think I was thinking in my head rather than saying what I was thinking. A lot of people who do well in AP classes and on the SAT or what have you -- it can be argued-- had the advantages (money for tutoring). Again, I don't mean all. But a lot.</p>
<p>AP classes are free? Don't you need to pay a fee to take the exam? I guess I remembered incorrectly.</p>
<p>wow this thread has gone off on a rather odd tangent. </p>
<p>and a lot of you people are pathetically defensive. seriously if youre so smart or so self capable do you really have to defend your fairly meaningless arguments on a internet forum with people you probably will never see in your life and mean absolutely nothing to you?</p>
<p>and regarding tap. if i had done it i probably would be a lot less worried about la but i would imagine its rather difficult to complete in less than a year.</p>
<p>I did TAP in less than a year, along with with a requisite-intensive major and cross-enrollment. It wasn't a problem, even with orchestra/job. I quit newspaper since it was terrible.</p>
<p>Needless to say, I kind of wish I went right into another UC and rid myself off both years of useless classes. </p>
<p>What did nontraditional students do in primary/secondary school? For just poor students, even 15k a year should be sufficient for one person's expenses, not accounting for FAFSA grants/loans. </p>
<p>If you're black/mexican/female, there are grants for that too.</p>
<p>so you fulfilled the tap, major, and igetc requirements in less than a year along with 60 units</p>
<p>geez how on earth did you pull that off?</p>
<p>I was a bit lucky in that although there were no explicit honors classes (0-unit seminars), that the parent classes were mostly in the IGETC sequence. If there were honors classes, I would have 15 more hours each week to watch animeh/do math/sleep. I could have gotten a nicer job too, if not for the lousy schedule I've had these two semesters--partially my fault since I wanted to take non-required classes and cross enroll (more time on the bus).</p>
<p>Also over 45 semester units (AP etc) prior to entering my first year.</p>
<p>All these units are useless though, and no big deal at all, so please stop patronizing me.</p>
<p>I believe Not doing TAP these days Nullifies your chances, I know people get accepted without it. But since the Market for Transfer and Freshmen are at a all time high and acceptance is an all time low (budget cuts, School tuition, etc.) , why wouldn't you pursue the available resources? It's not always about GPA people It's about playing Ball. If they have programs out there for you to take advantage of, by all means take advantage. If I were Admissions And I looked at An applicant with a 3.8 for Biz econ and an applicant that had a 3.4 with tap I would defiantly take the person with tap. I would look at is as this person did everything they could in their power to get into our school, while this other person did bare minimal.
Remember GPA isn't a Measure of intelligence. The intelligent one is the one that takes all measures possible to greater their chances of acceptance.</p>
<p>I could sit here and tell you my story over and over again about how I have to work and how my School doesn't have tap, I got to move and find another job and go to another school just to get into TAP, BOTTOM LINE Thats what it takes. I'm leaving my girlfriend (Which I adore) quiting my job, leaving friends behind, to Be apart of Tap. But I'm done swinging my Nuts around comparing my trials and tribulations to everyone else. point is you can do it, Theres a lot worse cases than anyone I've encountered on this thread, that are doing it why not muster up enough courage and take a chance.</p>
<p>In regards to the Tap statement I should be done in a year, Fall semester Calc 1 Adv English, 2 honors classes. Spring Semester Calc 2 3 honors classes. Honor classes are like music and history classes, they are pie. From what I've heard is you discuss more in smaller groups in your classroom and have to write a few extended papers, instead of 5-10 pages, they are 15-20, I could wipe my a$$ with 20 pages by BSing it.</p>