<p>If you can graduate from a lower tier school with higher than average grades, social skills and connections, you are in a much better place than your peers at that same college who graduate with average grades, average social skills and average connections.</p>
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<p>Tell this to the family of George Desdunes, the student who died of alcohol poisoning in a hazing-related incident at Cornell – a school on every “top 25” list.</p>
<p>I’m not criticizing Cornell specifically (it’s my alma mater – I love the place). I’m just pointing out that parents shouldn’t have a false sense of security about the Greek experience at highly ranked colleges.</p>
<p>I graduated from Northwestern and was Greek. Fairly recent Greek ‘events’ at NU…</p>
<p>Kappa Sigma (2003)
Kappa Sig was kicked off campus after they trashed Chicago’s Shedd Aquarium during their spring formal in June 2003. The university cited “major vandalism, alcohol use, safety issues, animal endangerment and reckless behavior,” as the reasons for suspending Kappa Sig, already on probation for landing an intoxicated pledge in the hospital the previous year. The animal endangerment charge? A fraternity member dropped a closed flask in the Beluga whale tank. The whale then brought the flask to its trainer, who returned it to the fraternity member.
Enduring Lesson from Kappa Sig: Don’t hold your formals at local landmarks; hotels are much more adept at dealing with the vandalism and reckless behavior. </p>
<p>Delta Tau Delta (2007)
Delt was exiled from the Greek scene in a fashion similar to Sigma Chi in 2000—not one specific incident but a bevy of discretions from excessive hazing to alcohol violations. The last straw: Some Delt bros accidentally sent former Dean of Students Mary Desler some emails that were **** talking her.</p>
<p>And my former fraternity, kicked off campus in 2001.</p>
<p>[Yahoo</a>! Groups](<a href=“Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos”>Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos)</p>
<p>I might add, that the only 3 people I new in my 4 years at NU to get thrown out of school for academic or ‘character’ issues were Greek.</p>
<p>I haven’t read the whole thread so maybe this has been mentioned. For some students their greek association becomes their whole identity in college. They only associate with other greeks, attend greek functions, are involved in greek activities. Period.</p>
<p>I was in a sorority many years ago at a large state university and experienced both the positive and negative - but saw all this in non greek life as well. To me, it’s all about the balance. Having friends and activities outside of the greek system is healthy.</p>
<p>Lenny2: a friend of mine recently spent an entire weekend worrying about her college freshman daughter who, like yours, was travelling out of state with a boy she hardly knew and all I could think was ‘yuck’.</p>
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<p>Don’t forget that you also said that all frat members owe their GPAs to cheating.</p>
<p>One would hope that this reiteration of your vicious insults would convince your defenders that you are unworthy of their concern.</p>
<p>Look, I am in no way a huge fan of fraternities. But I will NOT sit here and have someone who thinks he’s the cleverest thing going viciously insult my son and all of the other fine individuals I have known who have been fraternity members.</p>
<p>I find it astonishing that redpoint and saintfan think that a person who boasts on an internet forum about his son’s ability to “get laid” is worthy of a defense.</p>
<p>I don’t know anything about Northwestern University’s Greek life, and Haystack’s post made me curious. This is what I found on the University’s own website:</p>
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<p>[Welcome</a> to Fraternity and Sorority Life: Fraternity And Sorority Life - Northwestern University](<a href=“http://www.northwestern.edu/gogreek/]Welcome”>Fraternity & Sorority Life - Northwestern University)</p>
<p>The university itself appears to hold its Greek system in high regard, at least that seems to be what it is communicating to the public.</p>
<p>P.S. redpoint has lost all credibility as an objective self-appointed moderator of this thread.</p>
<p>I was not under the impression that the poster in question was bragging about his son’s ability. Rather, my impression was that he was encouraging his son to treat women with respect as individuals and not use the crutch of “beer goggles” to increase his odds with the opposite sex.</p>
<p>Come on now saintfan, for a phi beta kappa you are acting pretty naive. ACecil was taking great pains to slander ALL fraternity men, not defend his parenting skills.</p>
<p>It is all in the tone, so I am just ignoring ACecill. As a “Greek Defender” of course I knwo not all is well in the land of Oz. I discouraged my own DS from joining a fraternity if he chose to attend my former home in the Big 10 because I didn’t see Greek life as a positive thing.
As for high income, etc that is also not true of all schools. I myself was on need-based and merit aid while in a sorority and worked to pay for my dues. My own DS will do the same, though the costs after the first year will be cheaper re: housing than if he goes independent.
If I “bought friends” well, they were a bargain! I have shared more with those women than with my other friends at a close-knit, non-Greek school that I also attended. My sisters were there for the death of my father, medical issues with my mother, helping through miscarriages, etc. In turn I have held hands through chemo, taken vacations to babysit for pregnant moms and wiped away tears at funerals. I met women with purpose who were social and accepting. Women with dreams that were willing to make friends with people outside their hs circle. We larned how to multitask while juggling organizations, social eents all while maintaining a GPA higher than the school average. Greeks are more involoved in student governement, and participate in more activities. They have higher retention rates and the reason is simple-they feel connected to their schools. </p>
<p>Look, I have said it before, so forgive me if you have debated about Greek life on multiple threads. We are raising our children to want the structure that Greek life provides. We (society if it makes you feel better) have programmed kids to feel comfortable with organized activities. They juggle community service, school, leadership acitivites, looking for accolades and validation. They meet their friends through said activities and find common bonds. They have it drilled into their heads that leadership experience and networking is a major part of college. Greek life gives them access to organized social events, a chance to meet people in an organized setting that will also be social, the chance to compete in things for accolades with intramural, Greek week, etc. Mandoatory study tables take away the stigma of working hard for grades, and there are numerous leadership positions in Greek life. Internships, contacts with alumni also really happen, at least at my school and the schools where I have advised. That is why Greek life is growing on many campuses, including top 20 or 50 or whatever the prestige hounds care about this year. Even Harvard added a fourth sorority this year. Obviously something in Greek like is fulfilling a need for some. It is not for everyone, but why rip on entire institutions as if they have no redeeming value? </p>
<p>If you don’t like sororites and fraternities, then don’t join them. Simple as that.</p>
<p>I’ll say this, then trouble you no further . . .
My impression from his post is that ACCecil expects that his own son will attend the local CC for two years then matriculate to the state flagship. Unless he has moved away, it appears that said university is a southern football school with a general student culture which is known to ACCecil from his own experience at the same school (correct me if I’m wrong ACCecil). He is speaking about a specific case for his son. He sounded as if he was opposed to his son choosing a fraternity based on his own experience, but had decided to allow him the freedom of choice to explore that option when the son matriculated to the university from CC. After reading this thread, he had second thought, as many of the posts confirmed his original impression at his school.</p>
<p>For clarity, I have not been speaking of OP or son of OP or KU up to this point -</p>
<p>As many have advised before, know the organization and know the school. Greek at Whitman or Willamette is not the same thing as Greek at Arkansas or LSU - is not the same as Greek at KU. OP said it well when he wrapped up his participation in the thread with the following:</p>
<p>“It certainly appears that we are not off base in having concerns and will now take a more involved role in the investigation of the process. It may be a moot point, as my son may not think it’s a fit and the frats may not think he is a fit. Alternatively, it may turn out to be one of the best things he ends up doing. Regardless, we will now begin the process with our eyes a little more open than they would have been before.”</p>
<p>'nuff said . . .</p>
<p>Saintfan-the OP son is going to U of Kansas, which is not the same school as ACCecil. He is also particularly interested in a house known for extremely high academic standards. </p>
<p>this, like all other threads has veered off into many aspects o Greek life, including buying friends, rape, hazing, rich boys with beer goggles, cheating on tests, debauchery and arguments over whether these groups should even exist. It is just another day on CC.</p>
<p>Wow, saintfan, if ACecil had really said that^, no one would have been offended.</p>
<p>“Hopefully, he means Al Bundy of Married with Children fame. Otherwise, thats a bit harsh.”</p>
<p>LOL-yes, I meant Al Bundy.</p>
<p>ACCecil wrote "“Lovemy2kids, Did you read my posts #163-#165? I have a strong opinion but I don’t paint it as black and white. There are soem good things about frats. The formals are a good idea. They clearly have some positive social aspects.
It’s the rest of it I dislike.
I sat around dorm rooms bored a lot in college eating popcorn and talking with the same old dorm buddies and now and then we thought maybe we were missing something by not being in a frat. They are at least active on a Fri or Sat night so as I said I had negative feelings but originally was going to keep an open mind until I read this thread. It occured to me, after thinking about it, it is BS and just not worth whatever money it costs. So I went from being mildly open minded to no freakingway.
But I certainly didn’t see it as a black and white issue.”</p>
<p>ACCecil, that’s not how you presented your perceptions of Greek life. When you generalize and say that Greeks cheat, are drunks, and rent their friends then that is a black and white statement. Are there some fraternities that put partying before all else, of course, but they don’t speak for the rest of the organizations. You sound bitter and angry because you chose to be bored in college. Yes, we all choose to be happy, angry, or bored, and if that’s what we choose to do then we have nobody to blame but ourselves. </p>
<p>I have many friends who were Greek (remember, I chose to be independent) and they are some of the nicest, productive, successful people I know. The men I know (including my husband) who were in fraternities were not raging alcoholic rapists who took advantage of women and cheated their way through their undergrad. Many of them met their wives through their fraternities and went on to become amazing people, both socially and professionally. They are CEOs, lawyers, business men, and engineers. I find it insulting that those who never participated in Greek life, and clearly didn’t socialize with Greeks, think that they can make harsh accusations about a large organization of which they have no true experience with. </p>
<p>This thread is not productive and I’m going to choose to stop wasting my time reading posts from people who obviously have a grudge that they’ve held onto since college.</p>
<p>Just read this in today’s WSJ, and thought it was appropos to this thread:</p>
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<p>[What</a> They Don’t Tell You at Graduation - WSJ.com](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052702304811304577366332400453796-lMyQjAxMTAyMDIwNzEyNDcyWj.html?mod=wsj_share_email_bot]What”>http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052702304811304577366332400453796-lMyQjAxMTAyMDIwNzEyNDcyWj.html?mod=wsj_share_email_bot)</p>
<p>Love that column Bay - thanks for sharing!</p>
<p>Also Las Ma has a good point about correlation vs causation. Greeks have a higher average GPA in part because there is usually a minimum GPA required in order to pledge. The lowest portion of the cohort used to measure average GPA isn’t even eligible to be in the Greek pool. Greeks are also more likely to graduate in part because they feel more connected to their college - and kids who feel more connected to their college are more likely to seek out and join an organization like a frat/sorority, while kids who dislike their school are probably considering transferring or dropping out. So to some degree, the wonderful stats that Greeks quote come from self-selection - kids who would do poorly on those measures don’t go Greek to start with.</p>
<p>I am very aware of both the plusses and the dark side of Greek life. I remained independent in college, while my husband was in a frat. When our son told us he had no plans to go Greek, I was happy and somewhat relieved. When he changed his mind and pledged, I was ok with it but slightly apprehensive. It turned out to be great for him though. My daughter wanted to be in a sorority before she ever went to college so I was prepared and had warned her of the potential pitfalls.</p>
<p>Thanks for posting! Adding it to the graduation card…</p>
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<p>I know that many schools have this rule. At the school my son attends, however, he was allowed to pledge his first semester in his freshman year. In his case, high gpa in=high gpa while involved in Greek life did not apply. The school states clearly that those who particpate in Greek life have an average GPA that is higher than non-Greeks. There is a requirement to have a certain GPA to remain his fraternity. I am guessing that this plays a role.</p>
<p>It is simply amazing how a straightforward question by the OP has turned the thread into an exchange of vitriol where rational discussion seems to be impossible.</p>
<p>Despite minis assertions to the contrary there is simply no controlled study, from the Harvard School of Public Health or elsewhere, that fraternities are the cause of the various ills that affect college life, whether date rape or alcohol abuse. It is true that a higher proportion of members of fraternities and sororities engage in binge drinking than their non-fraternity peers at the same college, but that proves nothing. Fraternities and sororities are first and foremost social clubs and so by definition they will attract a more social and outgoing membership. Drinking will always be more common in social settings, because alcohol has been the social lubricant of choice since the earliest civilizations. Teetotalers typically dont join frats. That shows a referral bias, not causation. Very much as other have pointed out, frats and sororities members also have average GPAs higher than their non-Greek peers. But that is hardly a proof that joining a frat makes you smarter. GPA is often a factor during rush, especially at sororities. Fraternal organizations have existed since ancient Greece and many of the modern fraternities with their rituals and secret handshakes have their roots in Freemansonry in the US and trade guilds in Europe. The first American ones were founded before the country itself. There are equivalents to college fraternities throughout the world, and to dismiss their positive role, from mentoring to philanthropy is just plain ignorance. While criticism from the outside is common, the fact remains that the Greek college experience is viewed nearly unanimously as positive by those who experienced it firsthand. For many their lifelong association with their fraternity brothers or sorority sisters trumps their college association. </p>
<p>Alcohol abuse is a cultural problem in US colleges, not a Greek problem. There is no evidence that eliminating fraternities reduces binge drinking. Schools without Greek life have just as much alcohol abuse and often more drug abuse. Suicide is very rare in a fraternity or sorority setting, because of the support structure. Even minis dear Smith College is no exception. My wife is a Smithie and I spent the better of two years commuting on weekends between Boston and Northampton. Never have I seen as many women puking in bathrooms, showers and bushes during and after socials! Spiking the punch with excessive amounts of vodka was the norm not the exception. To the dismay of my wife who is very active as an alumni, the problem has gotten worse with a systematic pattern of students priming with alcohol before heading out binge drinking at social events at local colleges, a phenomenon largely unheard of 30 years ago. </p>
<p>Even before our DD enrolled at MIT, the question quickly came up whether she would join a sorority. Since neither my wife nor I had any prior Greek experience, we eventually left the decision to our DD, not without warning her about the obvious risks of alcohol abuse. Four years later, it is obvious she made the right choice: the social environment provided by her sorority is what made her ordeal at MIT bearable. She made friends for life, not unlike my wife through the Smith House system. She became more confident, more assertive in social settings. The sorority environment actually provided her with a safe environment in regards to alcohol consumption that would not have been present had she been in a regular dorm. Unlike her non-Greek peers there was no need for fake IDs, bar hopping or parties in unfamiliar settings. The fraternity brothers were often very protective of my DD and her sorority sisters walking them back to their house for safety especially if one had had a little too much to drink. </p>
<p>The real issue for parents is not whether their children should join or not a fraternity or sorority, but how to prepare their children to deal responsibly with alcohol and avoid binge drinking. College students (and most others) drink primarily because alcohol acts as a social lubricant and anxiety suppressant. College life is felt as especially stressing by many students, hence the need for a chemical fix. For some it is pot, for many it is alcohol. An increasing number of college presidents believe that more than anything, the drinking age limit is a major cause of the current problem. Comparisons with other developed countries without such restrictions tend to prove that point. Closeted drinking is a major source of alcohol poisoning. A zero tolerance attitude feeds a fear of reporting serious alcohol related accidents. If you want to seriously help your kids, dont stick your head in the sand since they will be exposed to alcohol no matter what you do. My wife and I took the attitude early when our children were still teenagers that moderate alcohol consumption, especially wine, was a normal part of social life, particularly family meals. I would occasionally bring bottles of wine to our DD for her to share with her friends before a party. Given the choice, I would rather she gets rid of her anxieties on a glass of wine than a bottle of vodka.</p>