<p>I’ll start with Consolation. I didn’t insult your son. I don’t even know your son. I didn’t say all frat members cheat. I said that if frats have higher GPAs than the average student it is because they keep tests on file. I didn’t say all, some or most but you can do the math yourself. Enough frats condone cheating that it inflates their GPAs. That is my opinion. Do you deny that frats save and file tests and then use them to cheat? I can’t wait to hear your non-reply to that. </p>
<p>I also guess that frat people tend to choose easier majors that won’t get in the way of all the non-academic stuff. Jocks do the same thing. Redpoint already correctly corrected you on what I said about my son’s relationships … I expect him to respect women and not use beer to get chicks in bed. Sorry if that offends you. </p>
<p>I don’t want to raise Charlie Sheen. The world already has enough Charlie Sheen’s. I am shooting for a bit higher than that. My son doesn’t always like my wisdom, suggestions and advice because, like I said, he is 17. I can relate to the get laid as much and as often as possible mentality and I can see how it can affect one’s thinking but here again I am trying to get my son to be a little better than I was at his age. I can relate to the idea of viewing women as things to conquer and if you get carried away with that you will have a far harder time finding something real later. </p>
<p>Speaking of real, sure, I don’t deny that some frat relationships are real. That is cool when it happens. Street gangs act as “families” for some wayward kids as well. I am pretty sure I don’t want my son to join a street gang even though for some people in the gangs they value it in some ways. Great! Still, if you think critically and look at the big picture and all the dirty parts of being in street gang, you know, the crime and drugs and murder and all that, you might want to steer clear. </p>
<p>Thanks to the people who read my posts and didn’t twist my words into bizarre things like “I won’t sit here and let you viciously attack my son.” Whoa. Try the decaffe. I am not here to be politically correct. I don’t care who dislikes me or whatever. It’s a message board. I could care less what people here think of me.</p>
Well, lets see…D1 went out with a frat boy when she was a freshman, this guy had over 4.0 in engineering, and went on to Stanford after graduation. The second guy she went out with was a Hotelie, but he had very good GPA, working in finance now. The third frat guy she went out (and is still with) also graduated from the engineering school, didn’t have as high of GPA, but is working at a top tier consulting firm. Other guys she knew - Engineering, working at GS; Government, Columbia Law; Hotel, working at GS.</p>
<p>D1 was a sorority woman, she double majored in math/econ and minored in gender studies, graduated with over 3.7 GPA, working in finance. Her best friend was in one of the hardest schools at Cornell, with 4.0 GPA, is now at Stanford Law. A sorority sister was in engineering, working in Boston engineering firm. Another sorority sister, a premed, decided to work for few years at a major cancer hospital. </p>
<p>I could go on. SO STOP MAKING GENERALIZATION ABOUT PEOPLE YOU DON’T KNOW. Sheesh.</p>
<p>I would also like to make a point, at D1’s Uni they have 7 different schools (Engineering, A&S, CAL, Hotel, Architecture…), with 3000+ students per class. It would be REALLY hard to keep so many tests for that many different majors/courses for just 50+ brothers. A course like Prob & Stats could be offered at 3 different schools (A&S, Hotel or AEM), what’s the chance that a bro would be taking that exact same course?</p>
<p>Seriously, would it be appropriate to generalize that people who do not belong to Greek life are nerds and socially inept? To compare fraternity to street gang…that is REALLY stretching it. Sorry, no one needs to twist your words, you put it here, black and white.</p>
<p>Yes, kids who do not belong to Greek life are just lillie white, so many parents would like to believe that. Oh yeah, on Fri nights, my kid is just hanging out at the dorm lounge baking brownies and chocolate chip cookies, meanwhile all of those OTHER Greek kids are out there drinking and getting lucky.</p>
<p>Really depends on what’s IN those brownies Oldfort. ;)</p>
<p>Let’s face it, everyone has a need to belong. It’s not some big bad evil thing. Fraternities and sorrorities need some adult oversight, really. That’s what’s lacking, imho.</p>
<p>Nice jobs, btw. Bet they never sleep a wink now, either.</p>
<p>I’ll make an effort to get to know all the frat guys out there so I won’t have to generalize. Or I could just realize that generalizations are often more true than not. </p>
<p>It sounds like you know some really fine greeks. Good for you. It sounds like none of them go to large public U’s so you should be careful infering much from your skewed sample but I am sure you knew that. </p>
<p>I am going to stick my head in the sand now and pretend frats don’t cheat on tests. Do you want company down there and how do you keep the sand out of your ears?</p>
<p>Seriously, while I’ve known a few “good” Greeks…most of the ones I’ve met tended to either fit the worst of the fratboy stereotypes or at best were folks who were friendly…but from a cultural environment/mindset almost completely alien to what I or most kids like myself grew up with. </p>
<p>Within my extended family…had two cousins join Greek organizations. One was a male older cousin who really fulfilled the worst stereotypes of a fratboy obsessed with the party/beer double-major and coming close to flunking out multiple times from a lower-tiered Big-10 state university. Another was his younger sister who joined a sorority at another Big-10 and graduated as an honors student. Both came from upper-middle class mostly White/Asian suburban backgrounds…including attending the best prep schools in their state. </p>
<p>While I admitted part of my aversion for not going Greek was due to the male cousin, there were also strong culture clash. Almost all of the ones I’ve seen seemed to be mainly a club for upper/upper-middle-class conformist suburbanites whose antics seemed to be those I’d thought most would have outgrown by junior high at the absolute latest. </p>
<p>This wasn’t dispelled when I continued to see…and sometimes be troubled by such antics as a young working professional in the Boston area. Having trash strewn across one’s doorway/sidewalk, a friend’s building/street graffiti-ed with fraternity logos, and having to get cops involved because a drunken frat group tried to threaten random passersby doesn’t exactly create a good impression. And yes, the cops confirmed they were members of fraternities quite familiar to them for prior antics.</p>
<p>Am curious about what makes “leadership skills” imparted through these organizations more special/desired than those which could be had by joining other clubs or activities such as ROTC, political activist groups, etc or by working some part-time jobs?</p>
<p>Since I am tired of this thread, I will answer one last questions to cobrat. Leadership in a sorority is not always different, but there are real stakes involved. House managers that screw up result in people going hungry or lights turning off. Rush chairs are are responsible for organizing huge recruitmen parties, wrangling members, coordinating with larger organizations, etc. Now that is not to say that you can’t get leadership from other groups, but I have yet to meet a sorority woman in all my years of involvement (25 years) that also didn’t also contribute to their schools in another way- participating in clubs, part-time jobs, even ROTC and many were able to be leaders in those groups as well. A typical house will have 10 real leadership responsibilities, some of them that can be handled by second years, and countless committees. Robert’s Rules of Order become your intimate friends. </p>
<p>One reason why I, in particular, get a little denfensive about these generalizations is because when insulting things are being said about “those people” they are talking about me. I have worked in one way or another for my organization since I pledged in 89. am an ardent feminist, was a women’s studies major, contribute to political causes, etc. and my sorority didn’t go against these values, but rather strengthened them, surrounded by smart, strong women. I went to college on financial aid and worked throughout college. What makes me bang my head against the wall is that I am not unique-not the token poor kid at a large and competitive Big 10 school. Most of the parents that talk about their Greek kids, or themselves that turned out okay are not anomalies. We can agree or disagree, but why does the tone of these threads have to always turn so nasty? Comparing Greek life to gangs, or, in an earlier thread, comparing those in sororities to those that fought against civil rights just make me lose respect for the other posters. It has been a tough couple of years going through this process, and I feel it is unecessary to be so hateful to fellow travellers on this journey. If we get too nasty, how will we be able to take advice on diferent topics? At this point I wouldn’t take directions from a few posters. </p>
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Is there a correlation between cheating and high GPA? By saying that fraternities’ GPAs are higher than average because they cheat, you seem to be implying as much. Does that mean the Phi Beta Kappas cheat the most because they have the highest GPAs?</p>
<p>I have read that the majority of all college students cheat.</p>
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<p>Is there a correlation between “easier majors” and higher GPAs? Are the top academic achievers all “fluff” majors? I thought that idea was debunked on some thread here on CC, but I may be mistaken.</p>
<p>I’m still thinking about MizzBees post earlier:
“We are raising our children to want the structure that Greek life provides. We (society if it makes you feel better) have programmed kids to feel comfortable with organized activities. They juggle community service, school, leadership acitivites, looking for accolades and validation. They meet their friends through said activities and find common bonds. They have it drilled into their heads that leadership experience and networking is a major part of college. Greek life gives them access to organized social events, a chance to meet people in an organized setting that will also be social, the chance to compete in things for accolades with intramural, Greek week, etc. Mandoatory study tables take away the stigma of working hard for grades, and there are numerous leadership positions in Greek life.”</p>
<p>And let me say a sincere thanks, because it is truly heartfelt, and it illustrates ideas that are wholly different from my own. I’m not saying bad, I’m not. I’m saying they are 90 degrees away from how I feel I have lived my life and am raising my family. The idea of looking for validation and accolades through an organization makes me cringe (me–I’m not saying its bad for you). I want my kids to seek out their individual paths and not be tied down to the judgement of a group.</p>
<p>The most important art in history are works that questions the norms, that make you see things a different way. Works like this are often seen as scandalous, but it’s those that create progress and change, and are remembered. There is much value in finding ones own path without worrying about group judgement.</p>
<p>I want my kids to study because they personally are interested in learning (I’m not saying your Greek kids aren’t). It’s alien to me that their friends would put a stigma on them for working hard for grades–I encourage them to be geeks. I don’t want the idea of networking or leadership “drilled into their heads.” I’m not saying those are bad, but they are much lower down on the totem pole for me. I think authority and groups must be questioned. And if they are solid this will only make them better. Why not question practices in Greek life? Some are obviously polluted and need to be changed. Won’t this make them better in the long run?</p>
<p>Shouldn’t what your adult children do in college be about what they want, not what you want? Discussing the dangers and pitfalls of fraternity life is one thing, but advocating against it because it makes <em>you</em> cringe makes me cringe for them.</p>
<p>Redpoint, it is great that you think you are purposefully raising your kids to go against the grain.My own DS is an atheist in an very Christian town and an artist in a sports town. He was raised in the land of non-conformity as a child and has not bowed to peer pressure to change in high school. But he was not raised with the same childhood that many of us had, but, rather like 80% of the kids we talk about on CC. He was not sent out of the house wit vague instructions to play, as it was not safe to do so in South Berkeley, nor couldhe just chill at a friends house because they were off doing kiddy yoga, gymnastics or soccer at age 7. This generation of kids were raised with so many activities structured that the family needs a day planner to know where we all are. There is no lounging around, but eveything rom play practice to science olympiads. Every female that he has ever been close to has been involved in one of his ECs. The organization may be stifling creativity, but you can’t blame social people for wanting that same structure in turning points in their lives. And from looking at threads by many of the parents protesting loudly on this board, your own children suffered the same fate. It is one of the things tat brings us together on other theads. We are the parents of high achieving, or sometimes just really busy kids.
And to say that you want your kids not to be tied down to the judgement of a group-aren’t we all judged every day by different groups? I am judged at work for performance, by my peers for my actions and judged by my family of my support. (OK, maybe I am being too philosophical about this).
Granted, not all people are naturally social, and may need other things to stimulate them, but it is disingenuous to knock those that want these very real social bonds. You also act as if those in the Greek community never question things or try to improve them. Check the national boards, read their minutes. You will see where that pledge money is going, into developing new programs to combat hazing, new alcohol education training, etc. I question tmy group’s practices regularly, sitting on boards and advising standards. When punishments are handed down, I am often the one dealing with it. I choose to work within my organization, rather than sneer on the sidelines.</p>
<p>Marian - I am in no way saying that only Greek people are doing well or have enjoyed their 4 years in college. My response was more toward Accecil posts about fraternity brothers tend take easy courses, cheat on tests, and are no better than gang members. Many non-Greek students at Cornell have done very well after graduation and enjoyed their college experience. It is this overall generalization about people which bothers me.</p>
<p>“it is disingenuous to knock those that want these very real social bonds. You also act as if those in the Greek community never question things or try to improve them.”</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I’m not knocking the people who want social bonds. I’m questioning elements about Greek life. Questioning meaning, asking questions, trying to find out, seeking knowledge, probing. I usually vote for the same political party, but I question my party also. I am really learning from your responses MizzBee. I respect them and learn from them. Just because I question and want to push out counterarguements doesn’t mean I shrug them off. I don’t see any of this in black and white. (Except the hazing, and the alcohol poisoning, and incidences of misogyny, etc.)</p></li>
<li><p>I do not act as if those in Greek life don’t question. Im sure they do. I’m also sure that in instances where something has gone bad, someone did not question enough. So the probing should continue. The coolers are still getting filled.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Bay:
“Shouldn’t what your adult children do in college be about what they want, not what you want? Discussing the dangers and pitfalls of fraternity life is one thing, but advocating against it because it makes <em>you</em> cringe makes me cringe for them.”</p>
<p>My kids are in high school and middle school. If they choose to join a sorority I will be perfectly happy for them, but they are not the type who will be filling coolers for boys. If they enjoy the more wholesome aspects of Greek life, great. I’d be more worried about fraternities if I had sons, and I will warn my girls about frat parties to the degree that I can. My kids can think for themselves just fine.</p>
<p>Red point,
I had the feeling you are the parent of younger kids. Thanks for confirming that. One thing I’ve learned as the parent of adult children is that you need to educate them but let them find their own niche in life. It’s hard to do at first, but you get used to it.</p>
<p>Redpoint, I don’t think we are far off. I hate hazing as well, and am actually glad that a lot has changed since I was a collegiate. I guess because I see improvements it is frustrating to hear that things appear to be so much worse. I do really get angry with houses that seriously break with the national rules because I feel like those members don’t respect what they have been given, which is all the positives that are mentioned in previously in Greek life.</p>
<p>That’s probably what most of the parents of girls who are now filling coolers said about their daughters when they were in middle school and high school. That’s part of the reason why this is so disturbing and scary.</p>
<p>I agree, but you also need to keep it in perspective. By Spring, virtually all of the Seniors and most of the Juniors are 21 years old, and often the men are older (already 21) than their dates. So packing beers in a painted cooler for the weekend is benign for this group.</p>