<p>Brava, Consolation. I, too, resent my hard-working son whose best quality is that he has a heart of gold - and whose idea of debauchery is “Pancake Day with the Tri-Delts!” - being classified as a cheat, bully, drunk, or date rapist.</p>
<p>I would not object to my son joining the dke house at Yale</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Actually, as much as I agree with your points above…neither of our opinions has bearing on the fact private universities have greater leeway in setting policies of this type than public universities or the US government at all levels for that matter. </p>
<p>Moreover, private universities like Bob Jones have greater leeway than most private universities as they publicly declared they won’t accept any government money for financial aid/research and are well-known for their unusually restrictive policies on students on and off-campus. Many judges would argue that the student could have attended other colleges which aren’t as restrictive in this area. </p>
<p>This has been shown by a recent case by a group students belonging to a socially conservative branch of Judaism where they lost because the judges said their religious rights weren’t violated because they didn’t have to attend Yale if they didn’t like the housing arrangements or presence of contraceptive dispensers as they had many reasonable alternatives…including several religious/socially conservative colleges which have arrangements suitable for their religious practices. </p>
<p>Heck, even some Federally run educational institutions are allowed to have severe restrictions on what students can do off-campus if it is meant to fulfill a functional training role…such as integrating military cadets into the rules and lifestyle present in the various branches of the US Armed Forces.</p>
<p>BTW, I find the DKE thing at Yale abhorrent, and so would my kid.</p>
<p>At the same time, I wish that we would hear less bleating about victimhood and being “hurt” and “offended” from young women on college campuses these days. They are the beneficiaries of decades of modern feminism. They need to get mad as hell and DO something about it if they are mistreated. If a frat house on a certain campus is a hotbed of sexist behavior, STOP GOING THERE. If the athletes on some team do not treat women with respect, DON’T RUN AFTER THEM. If you don’t want some sleazebag to be able to take advantage of you when you are drunk, STOP PREGAMING in your room before going out and MONITOR YOUR OWN drinking and behavior. And no, this is NOT “blaming the victim.” The perp is still the perp. It is taking responsibility for your own actions, exerting your power. I would love to see more young women asserting their strength and independence, and refusing to give the time of day to guys who don’t treat them like peers. I would love to see the media-stoked idea that the ability to voluntarily make yourself into a stereotyped slut equates to “girl power” die a rapid and well-deserved death.</p>
<p>That last paragraph has nothing to do with Greek life, obviously.</p>
<p>Consolation, nice one: "redpoint, I am going to confidently assert that your kids are cheats, bullies, drunks, and date rapists. While we’re at it, let’s throw in potential mass murderers. After all, we know that there have been terrible incidents in many HSs, and your kids are HS students, so it follows that they MUST be. Aren’t all HSs and HS students the same? Isn’t anyone who suggests otherwise simply a blind fool? Isn’t anyone who claims that their HS kid doesn’t systematically cheat on tests, participate in Facebook bullying or team hazing, or try to rape unconscious girls just delusional? "</p>
<p>Since when did I ever say any of these things about frats? Sure, I supported ACCecil, for a number of reasons, but don’t put words into my mouth.</p>
<p>I stand by my earlier posts.</p>
<p>214
"1. I’m not knocking the people who want social bonds. I’m questioning elements about Greek life. Questioning meaning, asking questions, trying to find out, seeking knowledge, probing. I usually vote for the same political party, but I question my party also. I am really learning from your responses MizzBee. I respect them and learn from them. Just because I question and want to push out counterarguements doesn’t mean I shrug them off. I don’t see any of this in black and white. (Except the hazing, and the alcohol poisoning, and incidences of misogyny, etc.)</p>
<ol>
<li>I do not act as if those in Greek life don’t question. Im sure they do. I’m also sure that in instances where something has gone bad, someone did not question enough. So the probing should continue. The coolers are still getting filled."</li>
</ol>
<p>And 125
"There is a difference between condemning (All frats are bad, terrible organizations!) and criticizing/questioning (Why would one join a frat? Why do frats sometimes do terrible things?). Why are some of you suggesting we shouldn’t be suspicious about SOME activities that go on in fraternities. Are we supposed to be in denial? "</p>
<p>****This is the crux of my belief. We must question organizations. Do you really have a problem with my criticism of the Yale incident? I never said any frat would have done that.</p>
<p>And then we get a personal assault by consolation, on me, or perhaps my kids. Nice one.</p>
<p>–and now I see Pizza has added in her congratulations to consolation. Lovely. It really seems odd to me that I can criticize incidents like The Yale one, the coolers and all they entail, and hazing, and end up being accused of accusing every boy in a fraternity of date rape. Really?</p>
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</p>
<p>Can you be serious? You actually are going to pretend that I am SERIOUSLY suggesting that your kids, or most HS students for that matter, are any of those things?</p>
<p>I am simply trying to get you to comprehend the ridiculousness of that person’s assertions, and WHY it ticks off those of us whose kids are being slandered. </p>
<p>I give up. I think that sound you just heard was my irony meter breaking. </p>
<p>You and ACCecil can go back to congratulating each other on your broad-mindedness now.</p>
<p>Edit: just wanted to point out that, predictably, you skipped right over acknowledging everything I said that refuted the slanderous generalizations of your pal, in favor of leaping to a patently ludicrous personal slight. I gather that if you had read Swift’s A Modest Proposal you would have taken it as a serious suggestion, too.</p>
<p>I also bring you back to 243:</p>
<p>"That line stuck out for me, too, Lakemom. One of the comments elaborated on this:</p>
<p>“I am currently the editor at a small college in Michigan, and about two months ago I published an editorial that expressed concern at the current pledging process at our school that lead to the disbandment of two pledge classes. I anticipated there would be controversy, but I could never have expected what actually occurred. Instead of recognizing the editorial as a call for discussion, the Greek societies on my campus labeled it a hate article and me as a Greek hater. Your description of their mentality of “They are either with us or against us” seems right on the ball.”</p>
<p>And this is what I have seen on these boards. This woman had a valid opinion and wanted an open discussion, and instead got slammed."</p>
<p>----And this is why consolation and now pizza are doing to me.</p>
<p>“Can you be serious? You actually are going to pretend that I am SERIOUSLY suggesting that your kids, or most HS students for that matter, are any of those things?”</p>
<p>Of course I know you weren’t being literal. But you were condemning me nonetheless, without reading what I was actually saying. </p>
<p>And now you are ridiculing me once again, even though of course I knew you were exaggerating.</p>
<p>Who has been nasty? I haven’t made a single personal assault.</p>
<p>I can assure you, redpoint, that I have read every single word you have written in this thread.</p>
<p>Your repeated attempts to cast me as a knee-jerk defender of Greek organizations is belied by just about every post I have ever made on the topic, here or in other threads.</p>
<p>But keep it up. It enables you to continue to ignore most of what I say and pretend that I have no reason to be ticked off when jerks slander my kid.</p>
<p>Girls these days call themselves sluts all the time. Given as much, is “We love our Yale sluts” still offensive?</p>
<p>It is interesting that when people criticize aspects of the Greek system some of you take that as personal criticism of your own child. That’s not intended. I mean, my kid volunteers at the zoo. If you don’t like zoos, and think they are cruel to animals, I don’t think you are criticizing my kid.</p>
<p>I would be extremely disturbed if I heard my daughters or their friends call themselves sluts.</p>
<p>I think it is, Bay, but I also find it distasteful that a girl would call herself that. I really dislike the use of derogatory terms in general, whether self-directed or not. (Including many popular slang terms for body parts…)</p>
<p>redpoint, when someone says that ALL FRATERNITY MEMBERS share certain characteristics, and deride anyone who says differently, they ARE slandering OUR KIDS. Sheesh. If someone posted that ALL people who work at zoos are sadists who secretly want to torture animals, they WOULD be criticizing your kid the zoo volunteer, and you would likely be mad.</p>
<p>Get ready.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Once again, brava.</p>
<p>Quote from Bay:
“Girls these days call themselves sluts all the time. Given as much, is “We love our Yale sluts” still offensive?”</p>
<hr>
<p>If that’s not a blanket generalization, I’m not sure what is. Maybe they do this in some circles, but I wouldn’t call it generally accepted or acceptable behavior. It certainly doesn’t give any group free reign to call girls sluts willy nilly because some, apparently, don’t mind it.</p>
<p>Redpoint, I take ACCecil’s posts personally, not necessarily yours. In that same vein, I can see why consolation gets upset as well. In other threads I have seen anger over posts onCC about how all Catholics are perceived as being part of the pedophile problem, about how all 1%ers, URMs, Asian high-achieving students, etc get portrayed on here. </p>
<p>In these threads it is often convenient to condemn Greek life in general, only to have someone a few posts later state that sororities and fraternities are entirely different animals, only to have blanket condemnation come a few posts later. It is a bit tiring. I tell myself that I won’t join in the discussion, but find myself back every time. </p>
<p>I have often thought of giving hints as to how to dissect a Greek life on campus, but know that for all the good a few posts would do to help a confused parent or PNM, the thread would devolve again. There can be no greek thread on here that doesn’t bring up hazing, drinking, not-so veiled references to elitism, etc. No thread would be complete without at least one parent talking about how superior their school is for abolishing fraternities, or how special their own little snowflake is for being too much of an individual to join the evil Greek life. We respond in kind with stories of our own precious snowflakes loving Greek life. Somehow because we see the benefit of said Greek life, that means we must obviously approve of bad behavior. If we condemn said bad behavior, then surely we can see that the Greek haters are right and we are delusional. </p>
<p>Have I missed anything?</p>
<p>
Can I ask why you feel this way? Both 30 years ago and today, DKE at Yale was notorious for being full of a bunch of obnoxious, hard-drinking jocks. I think most people at Yale strongly disapprove of DKE’s latest outrage–and it’s only the latest. Are you saying that you wouldn’t object to your son making his own decisions about joining an organization, no matter how repulsive it is, or are you saying that DKE has some redeeming characteristics?</p>
<p>
MizzBee, I think it’s this part that causes the problem–too often, defenders of Greek life don’t really condemn bad behavior–rather, we get such things as arguments that kids should just walk away from hazing, etc. It’s really a lot like professions that supposedly self-police, but often don’t really do so. The DKE incident at Yale is a prime example–the national organization did not take any significant steps to repair its reputation. So I guess that kind of answers the question above about whether I would want my son to join DKE anywhere–if their national organization tolerates bad behavior, that reflects on all the chapters.</p>
<p>RE: sluts. You may be disturbed by it, but watch an episode of Jersey Shore or Real World and you will be amazed at how many young women see themselves. I miss the Riot Grrls feminists of the old days. I miss the sexy feminists of the 80s and early 90s. I even miss Pink singing about empowerment. Instead all I see are Kardashians, Ke$ha and Lohans. What messages are we sending when we have 8 shows about housewives (who don’t appear to clean their own houses or raise their own children)?</p>
<p>[SlutWalk</a> NYC](<a href=“http://slutwalknyc.com/]SlutWalk”>http://slutwalknyc.com/)</p>
<p>[SlutWalks</a> Sweep The Nation](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>SlutWalks Sweep The Nation | HuffPost Impact)</p>
<p>[To</a> reclaim or reject “slut”? - Feminism - Salon.com](<a href=“http://www.salon.com/2012/03/11/to_reclaim_or_reject_slut/]To”>http://www.salon.com/2012/03/11/to_reclaim_or_reject_slut/)</p>
<p>…
</p>
<p>yes!</p>