The Greek Decision...

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<p>I think that is how the average person would interpret a chant, “no means yes.” The question is, are we entitled to make that presumption and punish people for it because we see those words as meaning something? A boy in my S’s grade school once wore a green T-shirt that said “Make 7
UP YOURS.”</p>

<p>I was offended. Did I have a right to expect him to be punished for displaying the words “UP YOURS” in an elementary school? (I didn’t). Is there any other meaning for UP YOURS in that context? Yes. Is there any other possible meaning for “no means yes” in the context of Yale’s environment? I think some might see it as the mantra of a sexual sado-masochist, so it is possible. Even if that interpretation is unreasonable, is it unreasonable to believe that Yale itself might have fostered this type of behavior or led students to believe that it is acceptable? I think it is possible, which is why I reserve judgement in this case.</p>

<p>I would be upset if I heard my S chant those words, but I would want more information about the context before I passed judgment.</p>

<p>Based on the original questions posted by the OP, the first page, say to post #15 or so, of responses answered the questions with a fair balance of the good, the bad and the ugly of fraternities.</p>

<p>What in the world happened between post 15 and here, where posters are discussing anal sex and a DKE scandal at Yale? And why do threads about Greek life always seem to end up here?</p>

<p>Sorry, eastcoascrazy, I did say that I thought this discussion was beyond the scope of this thread, but some did not want to let it go by.</p>

<p>I have a background in art and literary criticism, and am capable of seeing shades of grey. Sorry, there are no shades of grey in what they chanted.</p>

<p>Many many women on college campuses have been the victim of rape, date rape or otherwise (though as mini said so long ago, it’s all rape). This isn’t funny. It’s not a joke.</p>

<p>I don’t see how any of this is not relevant to the OPs original post.</p>

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<p>It’s alive still, but don’t know how productive. The only thing new is the Yale thing, and it’s beyond me how anyone can defend their behavior. That said, these Greek threads almost always progress the same way. It ends up basically with the same two or three posters taking over the thread, saying the same things over and over and over and over. Rarely does anyone change their thinking about it, and eventually everyone drops out except for the two who continue to go at it in circles.</p>

<p>Has the OP even been back in the last 10 pages or so?</p>

<p>ACCecil, every time I hit my back button to go back to the main page, my CC site has refreshed. Perhaps your browser has a problem, because mine works instantly and without having to manually refresh it.</p>

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<p>Oh, does the fact that I have a background in law make my interpretation better than yours? :)</p>

<p>I am not sparring my credentials against yours, or claiming an elite status. I am simply saying there is no subtlety in that chant, and no way to misinterpret it.</p>

<p>eastcoastcrazy: The question was how parents felt about fraternity membership, right? Some parents do not support membership. Some supporters said only (or usually) those that object don’t know anything about greek life. Also that fraternities attract those who enjoy a good time and pranks and don’t take life so very seriously. And that the Yale scandal was just words. If parents who support fraternity life also support the DKE’s behavior, that seems to me to go to the main question of the thread. Because there may be a huge difference of opinion in what type of activities we find acceptable for our sons.</p>

<p>Some are okay with this type behavior. I posted a link way back.</p>

<p>[College</a> fraternities: War being waged on college fraternities - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/08/opinion/la-oe-allen-fraternities-20110608]College”>Charlotte Allen: War waged on college fraternities)</p>

<p>redpoint responded in #344 with what was, to me at least, an interesting and on topic post to the very first question raised by the OP.</p>

<p>Wow, I leave for the night and it gets nasty again!</p>

<p>As to some of the posts from last night/this morning:
eastcoastcrazy, yes all greek threads devolved into this. Luckily this will not bring up the final Greek-bashing thread, which is why it is fair to discriminate against everyone’s precious snowflakes and why it is okay for children to turn down other children for membership (though that thread normally comes in September and January beofre or after recruitment). </p>

<p>It is true that the OP was talking about state schools, and we end up with privates, but that is the nature of CC. I find it a little odd, seeing the diversity of the class of 2011 and 2012 decisions that, as a group, CC focuses so much on Ivy League, but that is the nature of the beast. I will plead guilty for bringing up Harvard sororities. I have tried to bring in experiences from big 10, top public Pac 10 and small Midwestern universities. </p>

<p>I will not defend DKE, but I will say they were punished, so that satisfies my beliefs that all actions have consequences. </p>

<p>Thank you redpoint for taking something positive from my story.</p>

<p>As a Yale alumus, who also has a kid attending now, I would like to give my interpretation of the meaning of the DKE incident. Basically what happened is that pledges (and perhaps others) shouted “no means yes” and “yes means anal” outside the Women’s Center. In my opinion, this was done not primarily because the DKE brothers believed those statements, but rather because they thought those statements would be highly annoying to the Women’s Center. In other words it was a deliberately offensive communication. Was it threatening? I can’t say that some people don’t feel threatened by it, but I don’t think it was an active threat of violence. Is it protected speech? I think so. Should Yale have taken action? I think so, and they did (although their response was fairly weak). Do I think what the DKE guys did was acceptable? No. Do I think it’s representative of male students at Yale? No. The DKEs have always been an outlier in terms of their behavior. Their house isn’t on campus, so there isn’t much more Yale can do than prohibit them from carrying out activities on campus. I don’t support Yale prohibiting students from joining off-campus organizations.</p>

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<p>Why would anyone ever make the leap from “I support my child going Greek if he/ she so desires and I believe at his/her school, it can be a positive force” to “Therefore, anything any Greek organization does on any campus is praiseworthy”? It’s quite possible to hold, as I do, that Greek life for myself, my husband and now my son (coincidentally, in the same fraternity / school that H was in) can have many positives in terms of finding / building lifelong community, finding a smaller “tribe” in a larger school, and in helping kids on a campus where lots are socially awkward have structured space for socializing esp with the opposite sex. That doesn’t mean that I am in favor of drunken orgies, stuipd stuff like pledges eating worms and vomit, and disrespectful treatment of women.</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone ever made that equation, Pizza. I certainly didn’t, and I don’t think that’s what alh was saying in the quote you pulled out.</p>

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<p>You’re entitled to your opinion and I respect that. However, if and when Yale ever decides to, they’re well within their rights as an ostensibly private university to do so…however distasteful it may be to some. </p>

<p>It’s one reason why my LAC has been able to maintain their 130+ year policy banning fraternity/sororities or student membership in them on the grounds that they don’t want to encourage growth of non-transparent elitist organizations that the trustees of the time felt was antithetical to the type of college community they were trying to create. </p>

<p>The only exceptions are academic honor societies whose members are chosen solely on demonstrated academic merit. </p>

<p>Then again, most high school kids/parents who aspire to join Greek organizations tend to self-select themselves away from colleges like Oberlin.</p>

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I understand this and sympathize to some extent. I just worry about exactly where you draw the line. I sort of see this as the flip side of the kid who was suspended from Bob Jones University for watching “Glee” off campus. I just don’t think colleges should interfere with the activities of adults on their “own time” off campus in this way.</p>

<p>I will support my sons right to say anything he wants. That does not mean I will be proud of him for it.</p>

<p>My son was raised by a feminist mother. He likes intelligent women and treats them as peers. He is not interested in getting girls drunk to have sex with them. He isn’t majoring in a subject shared with any of his fraternity brothers, so they certainly aren’t in any position to help him with it, and in any case the focus in most of his classes is on lengthy papers, not on “tests” that could be stored and regurgitated. He is also not a racist: the majority of his close friends at college are not white. He is also not a homophobe: he was raised with gay godfathers, and does not tolerate such behaviors as using the word “gay” as a pejorative. For most of his college career he has received virtually a full ride in need-based FA, so he wasn’t the wealthy spoiled brat of legend. He certainly wasn’t “buying friends.” He had friends before joining a fraternity, and continues to have friends outside of the house. He is very intellectual and inclined to be introverted.</p>

<p>In fact, he shares NONE of the characteristics and motivations that ACCecil confidently asserts are shared by all fraternity members, plus several that have been thrown around by others on CC.</p>

<p>redpoint, I am going to confidently assert that your kids are cheats, bullies, drunks, and date rapists. While we’re at it, let’s throw in potential mass murderers. After all, we know that there have been terrible incidents in many HSs, and your kids are HS students, so it follows that they MUST be. Aren’t all HSs and HS students the same? Isn’t anyone who suggests otherwise simply a blind fool? Isn’t anyone who claims that their HS kid doesn’t systematically cheat on tests, participate in Facebook bullying or team hazing, or try to rape unconscious girls just delusional? </p>

<p>Stop and think about it for a moment.</p>

<p>You claim to be able to see shades of gray. See this: I, for one, am not a big fan of fraternities in general. I used to have the usual unmitigated negative view of them <strong>until I actually spent significant time in one and got to know many of the brothers very well.</strong> Then I realized that houses varied widely, and that some did not fit the stereotypes in any way. My S was strongly opposed to fraternities before going to college, and actually refused to apply to several top schools because of fraternity or fraternity-like presence on campus. Ironically, he ended up going to a school with a large Greek scene, albeit a very open one, and they do not rush until sophomore year, so students have time to get to know the various houses and go in with their eyes open, not as naive 18-yr-olds. (Everyone on campus is welcome at all houses for social events or just hanging out, except for formals. And no, his house does NOT have formals that involve overnight trips anywhere, much less weekends in hotels with coolers.) Students who would NEVER pledge elsewhere do so at this school. His fraternity has been good for him in certain ways, particularly in developing leadership skills and working within an organization. (Previously his inclination was very much towards being a lone wolf.) He has close relationships there. Nevertheless, in his opinion his school would be better off without fraternities–if they did something, such as developing residential colleges, that would provide students with some of the benefits. He now feels that, as a senior, he has outgrown his house to some degree. I think this is healthy. I would also not fail to credit his fraternity experience for some of his personal growth over this time. People often trot out the idea that kids could get the same thing from clubs. I can only say that I didn’t observe that to be the case for the vast majority of students at my college, which did not have Greek organizations, and I strongly doubt that he would have magically transformed into a club-joining, officership-seeking kind of person either.</p>

<p>This subject has been discussed numerous times on CC, and every time anyone who presents an experience contrary to the anti-fraternity party line is told that they are fools or liars. It gets old.</p>

<p>Well, I support my son’s right to free speech, but if he wanted to joint the DKEs, I’d be curious to see where he would obtain his tuition money.</p>

<p>Hunt, would that be DKE at Yale, or DKE anywhere? Because that is one fo the frustrating and wonderful things about Greek life. Fraternity ABC is the jock house at College A and the Dungeons and Dragons house at College B. The house with the highest GPA at one school is on double secret probation at another.</p>

<p>shades of gray - (I got the allusion/ nice)</p>

<p>[DKE</a> apologizes for pledge chants | Yale Daily News](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/oct/15/dke-apologizes-for-pledge-chants/]DKE”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/oct/15/dke-apologizes-for-pledge-chants/)</p>

<p>Below a DKE posts in the comment section:</p>

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<p>My opinion is that this is the correct response from a fraternity or sorority member to a chapter of their group that behaves unbecomingly.</p>