<p>Hunt,
I both support my adult children’s decisions and I do not find anything objectionable about jocks (especially Yale jocks) or college students who drink. I also do not necessarily accept stereotypes and generalizations at face value.</p>
<p>If the national doesn’t take public steps to condemn behavior, don’t assume that steps were not taken inside the house. The pledge educator may have been relieved of duties, the house could have been fined internally, etc. More importantly, a chapter that is known for bad behavior will generally not attract the ever important new members to fill the coffers in years to come. Houses that struggle then need to clean up their act and attract moe desireable pledges. I have seen that on campuses that become more selective. When new members decide to join the house that has a higher GPA or that is not on social probation, or the house that is described by women as the pig house, the roofy house or the cocaine house, those groups either disband, get called to the carpet by nationals or make an effort to clean up their act. National close houses all the time for bad behavior, low membership, conduct unbecoming, etc.</p>
<p>One thing I find interesting in Consolation’s comments about “Not victim blaming” and such and PG’s “bravas” about it is how there isn’t a consideration of the following:</p>
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<li><p>Possibility that women attending the parties at notorious frat houses are not necessarily the same women who join feminist organizations or go to the Women’s center in Yale’s case.</p></li>
<li><p>Women who were victimized by members of such frats necessarily attended their parties…or sometimes even knew their fraternity status.</p></li>
<li><p>Women who watch Jersey Shore or shows of that ilk are necessarily all in the same subset as those who are harassed, victimized, or assaulted by members of such fraternities…or those who join feminist organizations/use the women’s center. </p></li>
<li><p>In few other serious crimes would we be questioning or condemning the mistakes/actions of victims to such a degree. For instance, being robbed/murdered for living in a dangerous neighborhood…most reasonable thinking folks I know of would consider the possibility the victim may not be able to afford a better place or needs to be there for job/career reasons. Being mugged/murdered for walking around at 3 am in a dangerous neighborhood…while a few people I’ve known did that…most reasonable people tend to view such folks as unbridled jackasses who are not focusing on the root cause of the problem…the presence of the mugger and lack of good policing. They’d also consider the possibility the person may be coming home from working the afternoon-midnight shift as such folks do exist.</p></li>
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<p>OK, I am out of this for a while. I think CC needs a thread about sexual responsibility, harassment, rape, etc. but NOT ONLY IN THE GREEK LIFE THREAD!!!</p>
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<p>“I got raped because I had to walk in a bad neighborhood because I can’t afford to live anywhere else” is a little different from “I got raped because I HAD to attend the XYZ fraternity party.” NOT blaming the victim, to be clear … but your analogy doesn’t quite hold here.</p>
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<p>Same problematic issue…focusing on the victim’s actions takes attention away from where it should be focused… the one committing the crime. </p>
<p>It’s not too far removed IMHO from some folks blaming victims of K-12 bullying for “being too weird”, too introverted, or any other form of victim-blaming BS I’ve read about in the news or comments in news articles which takes the focus away from where it rightly belongs…on the perpetrator/instigator for the wrongful/criminal act.</p>
<p>Like cobrat I was a bit bemused by the idea of these women’s studies students pursuing the dekes, but who knows? right?</p>
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<p>confused… are we blaming the woman who “Had to attend the XYZ fraternity party”? or not? Are young woman supposed to understand that certain fraternity parties may include rape? And act appropriately on that knowledge?</p>
<p>Did I just not SAY I wasn’t blaming the victim? Am I in any way excusing bad behavior? Of course not. Good grief. I’m done with this thread - bye.</p>
<p>If I leave my car unlocked in a dark alley with the keys in the ignition and the motor running, I still blame the guy who steals it. But…</p>
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<p>Yes.</p>
<p>Some African American’s also call each other the N word. However, a group of caucaisons brandishing “We Love our Yale N…'s” would be considered highly problematic, for the same reason.</p>
<p>Sorry, but you seem oddly tone deaf when it comes to obvious cultural norms.</p>
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<p>How about this: I both condemn hazing AND I think that a lot of the time–not all of the time, obviously–the victim could and should walk away from it. My H depledged a fraternity at a private college in the midwest back in the 70s because of such behavior. He just said no, I’m not having anything to do with this stuff and walked away. My BIL told me about a guy at his directional U who refused to go along with some attempted hazing at his “business fraternity” in the same time period. The members had a meeting and accepted him anyway, saying he was right to refuse.</p>
<p>Personally, I do not understand the impulse that leads people to haze others OR to tolerate hazing. I have never done either. I would not want to be a part of a group that tried to force me to do gross, dangerous, or humiliating things.</p>
<p>I also know that in at least a few cases, those that stood against hazing were not kicked out of fraternity, etc. Sometimes people need to be told that they have taken it too far. </p>
<p>See, I wasn’t going to post here, but I did anyway. GRRRRR! I do find it interesting that the constructive thread related to Greek life is going to die a quick death, but this one will never die.</p>
<p>I have been reading this thread and honestly learning from both sides. I am not a greek fan but I do see where it would benefit certain students. </p>
<p>I am a bit nauseaus after reading the recent comments on rape. Horrible. It doesn’t help the cause.</p>
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<p>Having to depledge because you are about to be hazed is not the most pleasant things to have to do, either. As a result, the college experience can be disjointed and you are alienated from your friends in most cases. Walking away because of potential abuse is not the same as not pledging at all. Yes, it is better than being hazed, but don’t act as if there are no consequences. If someone thinks they might be hazed, they are better off not pledging at all.</p>
<p>^^^That also depends, as is usually the case with this kind of conversation.</p>
<p>D1 pledged a sorority and was initiated. She chose not to resume membership in her sophomore year. Not because she was hazed, or because she didn’t like the girls. She just was developing other interests and began to resent the many mandated meetings and other activities. It just wasn’t for her.</p>
<p>She remained friends with her big sister and several of her pledge sisters. She continued to develop the friendships with her first year suitemates and made new friends in the new activities with which she filled her time. It was all good, nothing negative at all about any of it. She never regretted pledging even though it wasn’t something she wanted to stay involved in.</p>
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<p>That situation is less awkward then telling your social group you are quitting because they are abusing/hazing you.</p>
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<p>No, I’m trying to be sensitive to changes in cultural norms, which is why I phrased it as a question. Word usage and acceptability changes all the time. “You suck” was one of the worst epithets you could hurl when I was a kid, because it referred to fellatio. Now 7-year-olds say it to each other and their parents don’t even flinch (but I still do).</p>
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<p>My daughter had the exact, to a T, experience.</p>
<p>^^^^^^Wow! Maybe that happens more than I realized.</p>
<p>A few in my pledge class couldn’t afford the dues and I never shunned them. My sisters didn’t go against me when I tranferred to a school across the country (without Greek life).</p>
<p>( I was also able to stay involved in my sorority even though I didn’t graduate with my class. That is the advantage of a large national organization)</p>