It is a fact that there are many more Chinese with perfect pitch than general population, having perfect pitch does give a youngster a slight edge in learning music, which might partially explain why so many young Chinese kids are good at classical music?
This is the first time I’ve ever heard that “there are many more Chinese with perfect pitch than general population.” I can’t say anything regarding its veracity. My violinist son, a Korean-American, however, does have perfect pitch and it did help him with music. In the long run, though, I understand it makes no difference between a person with PP and without. While having PP did help my violinist son, it drove his older brother crazy and contributed to some sibling tension.
“It is a fact that there are many more Chinese with perfect pitch than general population,”
@makemesmart
this is the first time I have heard of this.
where is the scientific proof for your statement?
is this proof based on audiologist testing of Chinese vrs non Chinese students?
@menloparkmom
There are many links if you google it; here is one- https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/speaking-tonal-languages/
It is believed to be related to the tonal languages of which Chinese has five tones.
@makemesmart it has been our experience that Tiger parents (and not all TPs are Asian and not all Asian Americans are TPs) like individual sports. There’s more control over the outcome. You can hire a private coach and help your kid improve, it is harder to improve a whole team.
@TiggerDad yes, I agree with you that perfect pitch is not a guarantee of a music prodigy, there are so much more at play to be good at music, but it just might be one of the many factors that so many kids from Chinese families are doing classical music early on and many are pretty good at it too.
@VickiSoCal
Good point!
On a side note, my son is a swimmer and he often laments that swimmers “don’t get no respect” in his hs, lol. I, on the other hand, never would understand any parents who let their kids do football. Ha!
@mackinaw said :"Parkinson’s Law may apply to career development, not just to organizational advancement: “People rise in an organization until they reach their level of incompetence.”
That is the Peter Principle. Parkinson’s Law is that work expands to fill the time.
What is the law about clutter expanding to fill all available space?
@makemesmart I have read that perfect pitch is more common in kids who play an instrument before a very early age. I think it might have been 4. Think I read it in the book musicophilia or somewhere similar. Would explain if statistically true that more Asians have it-due to early music study. But I have never heard that before.
Right, you don’thave to “excel above the pack” for top colleges. (This is another one of those hierarchical notions that are prevalent.) Rather, music (usually) represents a long term commitment (and presumably, improvement over time.). And sharing it (orchestra, accompanying, etc,) is using it for more than your own pleasure, it’s using it to engage . You don’t necessarily need to be first chair.
Marching band is a huge time commitment.
Bluegrass…you bet.
But don’t forget, one thing that matters very much is humility.
As a Chinese American, I think Amy Chua’s book did a great disservice to Asian American parents. I was appalled by her way of raising her kids, and I believe she is a second generation Asian American. And this op-ed piece in NYT just reinforces the stereotype of Asian parents being tigers that border on child-abuse when pushing their kids in the hope of getting into an elite college.
I was just observing the other day waiting for my kids to finish their music lessons, at the number of Chinese kids who also take lessons there. That might not sound unusual except for the fact that my kids play electric guitar and drums and so do the Chinese kids. Piano and violin are still very popular with Chinese parents but many seem to be embracing non-classical instruments as well.
I don’t think it impacted my kids (white boys) too much, but if we had lived in NYC it might have. There are kids studying for the IQ tests that they give to get into certain kindergartens, and a lot of cramming to get into the top exam schools. http://newyorkschooltalk.org/2017/10/5-secrets-nyc-department-ed-doesnt-want-parents-know-gifted-talented-programs/ A few years ago there was a scandal regarding cheating on the Regents tests at Stuyvesant - this is a school where every kid could probably not just pass, but do well on a Regents exam in their sleep, but there is way too much pressure to not just do well, but to get a top score. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/education/stuyvesant-high-school-students-describe-rationale-for-cheating.html
Regarding music, my oldest started piano in 2nd grade - didn’t like that he could read music beyond what he could get his hands to do. He switched to clarinet in 4th grade when the school band started. Being able to read music already was a big plus. He quit in high school because 9th graders in band were required to do marching band. My younger son started violin when he was 6, inspired by oldest brother’s best friend who was an excellent violinist. He played all through high school - got interested in electric violin and playing rock music on it, but was never willing to practice enough to actually be part of a rock band. (And the high school had tons of them!)
I actually read an article recently that advocated not starting kids on piano or violin but rather guitar. I know one reason for the popularity for piano and violin is that they are instruments that kids can start at a very young age. Guitar takes some hand strength so is often not recommended until age 8 or so. Alternatively you could start kids on ukulele and then transition to guitar. In any case, the argument for not starting with piano or violin was the fact that most people who learn those instruments as kids abandon them at some point. Guitar on the other hand many people continue to play for enjoyment. It’s a better instrument for getting kids hooked and keeping them playing long term.
My mother is an immigrant from a Hispanic country and strongly valued music education - classical music education. Her sister-in-law was a professional cellist. All 4 of us were required to take an instrument, my sister and I conservatory piano, my older brother first piano but was then allowed to switch to guitar, but classical guitar. My younger brother was made to do Suzuki violin. None of us were passionate about our instruments and quit them as soon as we were allowed. I hated piano lessons though I continued to play for some years for personal enjoyment and I quite enjoyed playing clarinet at school and performing in the school band. I also took a year of guitar at school. By my early 20’s though I had abandoned playing any instruments and none of my siblings played either.
I took a different approach with my kids. We started our older son who has turned out to be quite musical on the electric guitar at age 8. I chose guitar over piano in part due to my great dislike of piano lessons as a child. I felt he was much more likely to enjoy playing guitar at that age. My mother pressed for him to learn classical guitar which would have been the same as learning piano from my perspective - not fun for an 8 year old. We chose electric guitar over acoustic for 2 reasons. One we felt he would find it more fun to play and therefore more likely to stick with it, but secondly the string action (the distance of the strings above the fret board) is much closer on the electric guitar requiring less strength to press than on an acoustic and the body is thinner making it easier to hold for younger children. We bought him a 3/4 size to start. He took to the guitar right away, but it was when he was around 12 that his interest in music really took off beyond just doing lessons but becoming truly passionate about it. It was the same time that he started playing clarinet in school. He’s now been playing guitar for 8 years and plays in a rock band with 2 other teens. He is still playing clarinet for school and will continue in his senior year next year. He is not as passionate (or proficient) about it though he is giving some thought to perhaps continuing to play in music ensembles/orchestra when he goes to university. He plays acoustic guitar in the school’s guitar orchestra.
One thing taking music at school did that taking private guitar lessons never did for him was develop an interest in classical music and theory. His love of classical music has rubbed off on me as until recently I was never a fan. Now I listen all the time and the two of us attend performances of our local orchestra. It also is in part what led me back to piano lessons 35 years or so after I quit as a kid. I am enjoying them much more now, and that appreciation for classical music that I only recently cultivated is in large part the reason why. A year after I started piano, DS did as well, becoming his 3rd instrument. I had a year’s head start plus a foundation from childhood. He has an extended and recent foundation of 2 instruments, one of which requires him to read music and the other a knowledge of chords. It took him less than a year to catch up to me and has now passed me (he practices much more diligently than I do though). It’s that love of classical music which pushed him towards the piano. He also has expressed an interest in learning violin, but there are only so many instruments you can learn at a time! As a compromise we bought him a mandolin which is in essence a fretted violin, the strings being the same, and he is teaching himself to play, primarily violin music. Next year for school, he will be required to choose an additional band instrument not related to the one he plays now and he is contemplating either the oboe or french horn. I truly believed that if we had started him on piano at an early age and pushed as my mother did, he would not have the love and appreciation for music that he does now, nor the technical proficiency.
My younger son we started on drums when he was 8 as he seemed to have a strong sense of rhythm and didn’t have the attention span that would be required for more traditional instruments. He also was identified with having a learning disability impacted by his eye/hand co-ordination which we hoped drumming would help remediate. He stuck with it for 6 years and was quite good abandoning it just this year. It was never a love for him though. Instead now he is taking vocal lessons which he much more enjoys. He never took instrumental music in school, having no appeal for him, and I didn’t insist. He is very musical none the less but prefers composition of electronic music with the computer being his instrument of choice. He is far more creative in that respect than his older brother, who while a technically proficient and expressive music player, does not compose. He is now expressing an interest in learning guitar, but he does not want to take structured music lessons, preferring to self-teach. I’m fine with that.
While is true that both my kids have friends who are far more proficient in their instruments (mostly piano, a few violin), many are abandoning them having passed their final conservatory exams. Having only pursued them at their parents’ insistence. My children on the other hand, being given more leeway and gentle encouragement, have developed true musical passion.
@lookingforward - “Right, you don’t have to “excel above the pack” for top colleges. (This is another one of those hierarchical notions that are prevalent.) Rather, music (usually) represents a long term commitment (and presumably, improvement over time.). And sharing it (orchestra, accompanying, etc,) is using it for more than your own pleasure, it’s using it to engage . You don’t necessarily need to be first chair.”
But that’s not what Tiger parents believe or think. As far as Tiger parents are concerned, that’s heresy! And this leads to how subtly yet significantly and powerfully Tiger parenting can actually impact the whole college admissions system.
Tiger parenting (just look at the Battle Hymn by Chua or even around you among your Asian-American friends) is all about the exhibition of the mentality of “excel above the pack.” They look at the selectivity rates at HYPSM (their most coveted targets) – all single digits AND still on a downward trend with each new admission cycle! The gates through HYPSM are getting narrower. One thing Tiger parents are also keenly aware: “Asianness” is a disadvantage (rightly or wrongly) in securing a spot in these schools. What do these factors contribute to? Excel above the pack even more! That’s sure easier than changing one’s natural “personality” that Harvard says your kid sucks at! They’re also aware that the odds of changing their children’s personality for easier access to the HYPSM gates is practically nil, simply because they see that as just a convenient excuse for racial quota.
For Tiger parents there are no other feasible option other than “excel above the pack.” So they grind away at turning their kids into prodigies in music and whatnot. What’s the evidence of excelling above the pack? Competition wins. What more concrete evidences are there? Even from a low level local youth symphony, the first chair is hotly sought after. If not, pressure the hell out of that poor girl who’s been sitting in the second chair as a music turner to the point of displaying physical symptoms of hostility toward the kid occupying the first chair. If that fails, move onto math competitions. No personality contest, though, where subjectivity is not on their side.
A mad dash (I should say, squeeze) to make it through the ever narrowing gates surely has to impact those all around them, as well. How many posters in this thread alone have expressed the positive impact the Tiger kids had on their own kids by association? Everyone wants the same slice of pie, after all. I’ve seen them all among Asian-Americans and non-Asian Americans alike. I’m sure the AdComs at these schools must have seen the qualification changes throughout the past few decades of looking at the kind of applicants. What they’re now seeing more of is the kind of applicants that are “specialists.” Some would call that “spiky” applicant. Of course, there are many who are “generalists,” as well, those all around above average good kids. But the overwhelming majority of applicants are pretty much gamers nowadays, I suspect. In fact, this CC serves as a useful forum to learn what this gaming is about. What or how to write one’s essay, which teacher offers better prospect of giving A as opposed to B+, should I take up violin or trumpet, classical or bluegrass, IB or AP, how many honor courses are enough, etc. etc. ad infinitum.
Not that I disagree with you. In fact, I do agree with you that you DON’T have to rise above the pack. It most definitely helps to be above than among the pack. Most of those around me that are currently and in the past have been at HYPSM are what I called generalists above. They were just above average, good all around applicants with no spiky aspect in anything. Relevant to this particular topic on Tiger parenting, this is not how Tiger parents themselves see it, though. Being a generalist, above average good applicant IS only a default when and if they fail to “excel above the pack.” That girl who became physically hostile to my then very young son became an excellent generalist, being unable to rise to the top in various competitions. She’s currently participating in the lower ensemble music group at one of HYPSM. My family still adores her, and we’re very happy that she’s continued to participate in music. We also learned that she changed her major recently, which I like to look at as an indicator that she’s finding herself and doing what’s good FOR her.
I have theorized that much of the mania for elite schools results from the reality of how financial aid works in this country. For low income families, the elite “meets full needs” schools are the best shot at a good education and a better life. I wonder what percentage of tiger parents fall in that category and how many are really just mired in a mentality that only the top is worthy?
I know one family I would classify as “tiger” although they are not Asian. The mom has stated that it is impermissible for her son to get a B+ in anything and that really an A- is similarly unacceptable. They clearly have the financial resources to give their son an education so I can only assume that their view is really just a fetish for prestige.
A “fetish for prestige” has existed time immemorial all across racial lines. From my own experience of living among mainly Asian-Americans, while certainly not all are Tiger parents, those who are characteristically place prestige above money when it comes to elite schools. Even way before the Ivy League and other elites went “need based” FA system, I do remember an Asian-American family who lived in a run down station wagon in order to send their daughter to Harvard. This sense of self-sacrifice among Asian parents is powerfully grounded in their cultural heritage, and it hasn’t disappeared nor is it going to. Among those around me that I’ve come to recognize as Tiger parents, sending their children to any of these elites, preferably HYP, they’d sell their arms and legs to do it. In fact, all my life, I don’t know of a SINGLE case (keep in mind I’m not omniscient) that a Tiger household has turned down a HYP admission and chose some other school because of financial reasons, including before the institutionalization of need based FA and after. Other Asian-Americans might know someone, but I’m willing to bet that they’d be hard pressed to find one or two examples.
Of course, the mania has only gotten worse with the knowledge that these elite schools are not only very generous with their FA but could even be cheaper than an in-state public.
@gwnorth
The beauty of piano learning at an early age is the kids will get very good at reading music, it is just like a second language, the earlier you learn, the easier it is. And once the child can read music fluently, picking up other music instruments (if that is desired, lol) becomes easier and smoother.
Classical music should reform, imho, people should be able to go to the concert in flip flops and jeans if they choose so, and interactions with musicians from the audience should be highly encouraged. We love watching Bernstein’s “Young People’s concerts” on dvds when the kids were young. Classical music can be so fun and full of stories, but today’s concerts/musicians are too “serious”/sometimes full of themselves. They are driving kids away.
Lol, see YoYo Ma or Itzhak Perlman for some fun. Attend outdoor concerrts where you can “come as you are.” Expand to other forms besides classic. Find pick up concerts. It’s all good.
TiggerDad, some nicely insightful comments, thanks.
How fin aid works for the lower SES, versus one’s publics, can vary. Can depend on what state.
I’m a big fan of high performing lower SES kids. But when you turn this away from FA or prestige, many can be most empowered at various colleges for varying reasons.