Yo-yo Ma is infectious, so is Itzhak Perlman, both of whom in fact love to interact with the audience. I remember watching another video when the two along with healthy and beautiful Jacqueline du pre and young and dashing Daniel Barenboim were playing music together, you could feel the music flow through them…unfortunately, at “normal/indoor” classical concerts, silver-haired audience is the vast majority, and so many Synphony orchestras are struggling, musicians are struggling. There are a lot of Asian families learning classical instruments, but not many go to classical concerts.
@makemesmart, I agree that starting piano early helps with reading music, but the problem especially for children whose parents view classical/conservatory piano as the only path, is that the stringent requirements often sucks the fun and musical enjoyment out of it making it a chore. My son did not learn to read music until age 11 when he started clarinet at school. He is an excellent reader of music. Not starting earlier with piano but having learned 2 other instruments first has put him on an accelerated path to mastery. I still believe that had he started his music education with piano at an early age he most likely would have abandoned it as I, and so many others I know, have done. Not having to learn to read music is actually one of the attractions for guitar for young children. They can develop a level of mastery more quickly than on the piano and the guitar lends itself better to contemporary music. If a child becomes serious about music, they most likely will eventually add piano as a second instrument. Recent studies have shown that the window for 2nd language mastery is actually longer than previously thought, into the teen years.
As to the reformation of classical music, this was actually a topic of dinner discussion in our house the other day. I agree that unless the industry does something to attract new and younger audiences, the music and the orchestras will die out. When I take my son to the orchestra, he is one of the few young people there. None of his Asian friends who were forced into piano or violin lessons at a young age listen to classical music (and most of them don’t play anymore).
Admission officers don’t care if you took piano lessons for 12 years unless you are going to a conservatory. Any tiger parent who pushes the viola or piano is seriously out of touch with reality. To me and most of friends classical music is really really boring. We just had a college graduation party and the now adult kids were playing beer pong and playing “we are family” loudly. And yes some of them had just graduated from Harvard and the Claremont colleges.
The elites care about how well you do in classes not how well you do with the violin. Diversity is our nations strength. Having a one model fit all approach of tiger parenting is a complete waste of time and that is why it is dying. It does not appeal to diversity and is a stale approach to a world in need of creative ideas and change.
I hate that this has devolved into some bashing of classical music. Most professional orchestras have family series, perform outdoors in the summer, and are super approachable/accessible. Many of us do not find classical music “boring”. My daughter studies to Chopin regularly and is her go to music for relaxation. Would she play it at a party, not a chance. But she loves classical music, both playing and listening.
It’s also a sweeping generalization to say that kids who start piano early are more likely to quit. All kids end up dropping some EC or another around middle school when they start figuring out what really appeals to them (and not their parents).
That all said, I never “made” my daughter practice piano. It was a love and passion for her. When she ended up saying the theory classes were sucking the joy out of composing, we dropped it, no questions asked, but she happily continued lessons through high school. She is in weekly contact with her teacher (we moved) and working on repertoire pieces for the summer. Her main criteria in choosing a dorm was making sure there were practice rooms with pianos and that she could find room for her keyboard in her room.
As a non tiger parent (and non Asian), I feel like kids and parent who love music are getting a bad rap on this thread.
True! I’m not sure how that happened. For the record, my whole family loves classical music as well as many other genres.
Nope. I like music. I listen to spotify a lot. My kids like music a lot. It is just that 95 per cent plus of the people out there don’t play or listen to classical music. Classical music sales account for between 2 to 4 per cent of the total. On the other hand in excess of fifty million people listen to country.
A few years ago Joshua Bell played Bach in the DC Metro . Only a few people stopped and he made $32.17 over an hour. Compare that to Christina Aguilaras performance in the New York Subway.
We’re a music family, too. And fans of it DO have other music interests and interesting lives. Lol. I like EDM and a lot of rap, too. Have an open mind.
And adcoms don’t go looking for music, not necessarily, but it can be shown in the Activities section and is a commitent. As well, you can show how you use it. That’s reality. Man oh man, it sure beats a lot of other ECs CC advocates.
I hate how some folks easily slide into bashing certain immigrants. Anyone can be obnoxious.
our musical experiences:
We bought an upright piano for my first son because at 4 he could name the composer of classical snippets (in commercials) by ear just from hearing them at a grandparent’s house (we actually never played classical at home – we favored 1980’s pop). He started with suzuki at 5, and turned out to have perfect pitch. He could play a rough semblance of any piece that was presented to him just by hearing it once. Therefore he did learn to read music until he was about 9 or 10. The only way he could be taught sight-reading was to force him to play music that he had never once heard. So, for about a year he had one lesson a week where every piece was new, and he only was asked to try it once.
Two years into suzuki, he had exceeded the curriculum and we switched him to a program run by Russian Jewish immigrants. Certain students were placed on the prodigy/tiger track. In this track, students overtly competed against each other for small scholarships (for extra lessons), outside competitions were required, and, if a student made a mistake in a performance, he was publicly shamed. Without my knowledge, my son was placed on this track, owing to his talent at intake. All the other students on this track were Asian. Then we started to get pressure that he should practice “at least” 2 hours a day. I didn’t know where this was coming from – I just signed him up for high quality lessons, and had no desire for him to be a professional musician at age 8 or 9. For several years we bumbled along, with him practicing about 40 minutes a day. More and more he was compared negatively to his peers. We were told he wasn’t keeping up, and squandering his talent. They would have a peer come into his lesson to play in front of him to show off what would be possible. I understood that this was supposed to make us want to compete, but really it just made us stressed out. One day he just kept crying at a lesson because his teacher was so critical. They called the police on him because he wouldn’t stop crying-- loudly. He was about 11.
We switched him to another piano school, which was also a school which served some students with professional aspirations. We told them upfront that we wanted him on the music “just for fun” track, and they honored our request. It was a much better fit. He studied piano up through age 18, and never practiced. He also never did another competition. Now, as an adult, he plays piano for pleasure, but never practices, and almost never plays the same song twice. He recently went to a cast party with the members of an off-broadway musical after the show, and he impressed the cast by being able to play all their pieces on the piano (he had never heard the musical before that night).
I am so glad the whole tiger philosophy did not ruin music for him, but it was a close call. He still has anxiety when he remembers his experience with the Russian school.
This is not about bashing classical music. This is about the last of the tiger parents. Many tiger parents believe that taking piano lessons for 12 years and taking the SAT score 6 times makes you a far superior candidate to the candidate who lives on welfare and has no family money. These tiger parents are wrong . They need to think outside of the box a little if they want their child to go to a selective college. They shouldn’t get mad and scream and yell if the child with lower scores but a lot less money gets picked over their child. The child from the lower SES may have shown more initiative and creativity in working with what they had.
While we weren’t “tiger parents,” we were well informed about colleges and higher education. That was a given, since I was a college professor and between us my wife and I had 5 college degrees and a variety of certificates. We wanted our kids to get into the best colleges that fit their intellectual abilities and their tastes.
Our entire approach to college choice and admission was “toothless” and non-tiger. In addition to not obsessing about testing (he was a natural test-taker and got very high scores), our oldest kid wasn’t obsessive about where he would attend college. His key interest: “a college where it’s safe to be a thinker,” preferably located in a “major league city” (as in major league sports). He deferred to me to make the list. He didn’t want to make any visits to colleges prior to being admitted. So I composed a “palette” of colleges ranging from state publics to private lac’s, with a range of difficulty of admission. He attended the University of Chicago, after making the decision to attend on the morning after he made his very first visit to the college on “admitted students day.” UChicago at that time wasn’t as hard to get into as it is now. I considered him to be a shoo-in for admission there based on his academic record, EC’s (awards in debate, journalism), and test scores. It was up to him, however, to determine the “social” fit. Had he not liked Chicago, he had several good backup acceptances, including the state flagship (UMich HC – with “major conference sports”), my alma mater (Reed), and other small LAC’s (Carleton, Williams).
So we took an unconventional and largely stress-free approach to college selection that fit our son’s preferences. It worked out really well.
Music has been a significant part of my childhood in South Korea, mostly singing, but I’ve come to really appreciate the classical music once I emigrated to this country as a teenager. Live music has been a daily part of our family life once we had our children to the point where it’s just unthinkable to live our lives without music. I listen to music everyday, but what gives me the greatest joy is watching people making live music. The other day, I invited a few of my second son’s former high school friends over for some Korean Bulgogi grill. Right after dinner, I found them jamming, one on cajon, one on acoustic guitar, one on piano and my son on violin. My wife and I went upstairs to give them some privacy but to continue to enjoy listening to their impromptu music making from upstairs, but only a half hour later they all decide to leave to my deep disappointment. It turned out that they had left so early so as not to “disturb” us! A costly misunderstanding!!
While my older son had quit music in his senior year in high school to follow his true passion, tennis, he still makes music with his younger brother once in awhile. He had a talent in piano accompaniment and had accompanied his younger brother’s solo violin recitals and concerts in many venues, including the one in front of all the music teachers in our state during the state music teachers’ conference one year. But, alas, ultimately music was just not in him. When we recognized that reality as parents, we encouraged him to move onto his other passion. Sure, we as parents have regrets, but not him. It made him a happier person, and that’s what really mattered.
My younger son, on the other hand, has music in his blood, bones, sinews and his soul. The way to deal with the height of stresses during his high school junior and senior years was to go downstairs to the basement at midnight and make experimental music. Music really helped him get through his high school. But, as I posted earlier in this thread, after his last public solo concert, he bid adios to the classical violin solo music for good. He’s now headed more to David Garrett type of cross over music. I tried my best to encourage him to major in music in college, but after several earnest attempts, I now see it’s useless. I’m gratified by the fact that he loves music, just different genre, and will continue to make music that suits his own personality, taste and style of his own making. Hey, I’ll take ANY music than none at all.
I don’t care about music, particularly classical music. My younger, however, insisted on piano lessons and classical music. She is a very accomplished HS senior, but she really doesn’t want to play Lady Gaga for me.
On more than one occasion, I have threatened to stop paying for lessons (I would love to save the money and time). She immediately throws herself into practice again, willingly spending hours and hours on Chopin. I guess the challenge and beauty of great music is fun.
For me reading music is something that is part of being educated. You don’t have to play well, but I think understanding something about how music is structured and to pick out a tune on a piano, a recorder, guitar or a violin is a skill every adult ought to have. I let my kids switch instruments when they asked.
When my DD was growing up, I saw many families around us invested tremendous time and money on their children’s academic, music, and sport activities. I had known that my DD was not type of the kid that could be cultivated to become an excellent talent in a younger age due to her easily going, showy, fun loving temperament. I also believed that she was a bit slower learner (lack of focus but not the intelligent in her part), so I did not want to kill her interest by forcing her do to much repetition/practice and entered any competition. I also understood that my household was lacking the resource (time and money) to help her to compete with tiger parents’ talent children even if I wanted too.
But I (we since my wife do listen my logic of reason) still wanted my DD to have the experiences the other kids her age had, so she had the opportunities to learn piano and ice skating. We would find ways to spend as less as possible for DD to have these activities — spread out the lesson, join the county’s group program instead of private lessons… Besides, DD was not a practice person that she only practiced 1/2 hour of piano per week and not practicing ice skating at all (just went there to chat with friends). The results were predictable — her piano skills were progress slowly, her basic ice skating took her 3 years to complete when her two good friends only took a year. There were some period that she were frustrated about her own progress and wanted to quit, but we insisted her to stick with her activities until certain level. She figured out that her slow progress had mostly her own doing and become focus more later on when she turned teen. The ice skating taught her that she could love doing something for life even if she would never be good at it after certain level. The piano lessons, even though it was like a waste at that time, it helped her pick up playing guitar by herself, and able to write her own songs soon after, and after about 5 years not having piano lessons, DD registered piano class with college level instructor in her 1st semester. Apparently, DD always has her love on that instrument even if she hasn’t been good at it. These days, she could go to an open mic at our local restaurant and wow the patrons with her singing and guitar playing performance. She is close to become a professional musician someday soon.
@amNotarobot In my opinion that’s the way to do it for most kids. Be “low key” (not high pressure), but try to expose the children to many different opportunities so that they discover their interests and talents. Sometimes we wished that our kids had stayed with certain activities in which they had talent (for example our daughter with music). But the kids were not lazy, and they used their time to focus on activities that were interesting to them and also helped them to develop some specific skills (art, computing). It was those skills that led to their college focus and later to their careers.
@TiggerDad Thanks for sharing your experiences. I am also a 1.5 immigrant. Came here with my parents as a 9yo. I didn’t have a lot of pressure from parents. They were busy with their own jobs and I did reasonably well in school, while spending summers watching reruns of Gilligan’s Island.
Fast forward to the present, with kids of my own. While I am not in the tiger parent rat race, my kid, by virtue of his appearance, get lumped into the category because - wait for it -he does well in school, played piano (suggested by his Kindergarten teacher to improve motor skills) , and plays tennis. We don’t push competition. He loves to play piano for fun He wants to try out for HS tennis team, but we told him we’re fine with it if it doesn’t work out. So we just let him lead the way. He is now fascinated with making stop motion films.
As a college prof, I know the level of universities he can apply and get into and come out of with good prospects. Ummm - they’re not HYPSM. Smiling and nodding among the Indian -American community when discussing college has become an all important skill. I thank CC posters for keeping me sane!
Wow, Gillgan’s Island!! I used to watch that everyday and its TV theme tune still rings through my brain so vividly! In fact, in one of my favorite discussion forums that I’ve been on for more than a decade, I listed “My Location” as Gilligan’s Island! Used to watch that and The Flintstones! :))
The thing that makes me so sad about this Tiger parenting thing is the vicarious projection of parental greed upon their own children. I remember dating this Korean girl in San Diego, but her dad objected to our dating for whatever the reason that I still don’t know to this day. So, one day, I went over to her parents’ house and asked him formally for his permission to date his daughter. The girl I was trying to date was ecstatic that I had the galls to face her Tiger dad so directly. Not so her father. My bold move apparently had backfired. He went into his caveman mentality and told me, with his arms crossed, “she’s MY daughter, and I can do WHATEVER I want with her, and she’s NOT going to date you!”
I’m not going to detail about anything that had happened upon my hearing that except all the neighbors on that street came out wondering what all the commotion was about. Glad no one called the police. The point is that I have this visceral negative reaction to any parents trying to mold their children into the extension of themselves or to live vicariously off of them. You know what? My mother was a second-grade elementary school drop out because education was a luxury back in her days and she had to contribute to the family livelihood. My father’s highest education was high school and then got conscripted into a forced Japanese army. I was blessed that the only thing that my uneducated parents knew was to simply survive. They never forced anything on me, except to hire a string of tutors when I wasn’t doing well in school. By then, they had the means to hire not only tutors but house maids, as well. All tutors gave up, one by one. Once we came to the U.S., my parents never interfered with anything I was doing. I was like a wild weed growing through the cement cracks. There are things I regret, such as the educational foundation that I utterly lacked. But I never blamed my parents. They were just busy surviving the devastating Korean War and its aftermath. They allowed me to enjoy my freedom. I flunked just about every class since kindergarten in South Korea to high school in this country. Still to this day, I don’t know how I even managed to graduate and went onto a local community college.
Everyone survives. Let’s not pretend like so many Tiger parents that, should their children not attend HYPSM, that their children will die of starvation. To me, it’s almost comical, the level of greed that borders on being pathetic. Life is wonderful. Kids will find their way as long as we don’t step on them all over with our own wishes and dreams and greed as parents.
Wow, Gillgan’s Island!! I used to watch that everyday and its TV theme tune still rings through my brain so vividly! In fact, in one of my favorite discussion forums that I’ve been on for more than a decade, I listed “My Location” as Gilligan’s Island! Used to watch that and The Flintstones! :))
The thing that makes me so sad about this Tiger parenting thing is the vicarious projection of parental greed upon their own children. I remember dating this Korean girl in San Diego, but her dad objected to our dating for whatever the reason that I still don’t know to this day. So, one day, I went over to her parents’ house and asked him formally for his permission to date his daughter. The girl I was trying to date was ecstatic that I had the galls to face her Tiger dad so directly. Not so her father. My bold move apparently had backfired. He went into his caveman mentality and told me, with his arms crossed, “she’s MY daughter, and I can do WHATEVER I want with her, and she’s NOT going to date you!”
I’m not going to detail about anything that had happened upon my hearing that except all the neighbors on that street came out wondering what all the commotion was about. Glad no one called the police. The point is that I have this visceral negative reaction to any parents trying to mold their children into the extension of themselves or to live vicariously off of them. You know what? My mother was a second-grade elementary school drop out because education was a luxury back in her days and she had to contribute to the family livelihood. My father’s highest education was high school and then got conscripted into a forced Japanese army. I was blessed that the only thing that my uneducated parents knew was to simply survive. They never forced anything on me, except to hire a string of tutors when I wasn’t doing well in school. By then, they had the means to hire not only tutors but house maids, as well. All tutors gave up, one by one. Once we came to the U.S., my parents never interfered with anything I was doing. I was like a wild weed growing through the cement cracks. There are things I regret, such as the educational foundation that I utterly lacked. But I never blamed my parents. They were just busy surviving the devastating Korean War and its aftermath. They allowed me to enjoy my freedom. I flunked just about every class since kindergarten in South Korea to high school in this country. Still to this day, I don’t know how I even managed to graduate and went onto a local community college.
Everyone survives. Let’s not pretend like so many Tiger parents that, should their children not attend HYPSM, that their children will die of starvation. To me, it’s almost comical, the level of greed that borders on being pathetic. Life is wonderful. Kids will find their way as long as we don’t step on them all over with our own wishes and dreams and greed as parents.
Sorry for the double post. Don’t know what happened.
@TiggerDad Thats OK. I got to like it twice.