<p>Glad to know you will be praying for my soul. Not that I care. I won't be standing in front of Jesus. He doesn't exist. He isn't real. And I'm quite thankful that he doesn't exist, because the descriptions sure make him seem like a real jerk off.</p>
<p>Me thinks though does protest too much.</p>
<p>Woah. This has gone way out of control.</p>
<p>NikiiL: That 'pray for the soul' thing was quite audacious. An example of a Christian 'imposing' his/her religion on a non-believer. I'm not accusing, just hoping you see what non-believers refer to when they talk about imposition of religion.</p>
<p>Tboone and Nikii: The Bible does not condemn slavery at all. I could point you to numerous articles on the Internet that talk about this, if you wish. (It's a harsh truth for some, but it's the truth)</p>
<p>That being said, fromthesouth: you might consider blanking your last post. It is pathetic. I think the only reason you feel so strongly about this is because you see the possibility of Jesus existing, and you're trying to convince yourself otherwise. Just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>Whistle pig....I love you...and so does God...."beyond the basic belief that Jesus is who He said He was, that there is but one narrow path into His kingdom, and that He came to testify to THE truth ...and did so. And I believe it. Every word."</p>
<p>Amen, and amen....</p>
<p>Can't edit it now anyways. And I would edit a bit, but not the part about Jesus not existing. Any person that actually thought the thing through wouldn't believe that he existed. Oh yes, Scientology is crazy but Christianity makes PERFECT sense.</p>
<p>It does have it's share of critics. But if you're looking for reason in religion, you've missed the point.</p>
<p>fromthesouth ...allow a couple thoughts.</p>
<ol>
<li>When I noted your protest, what I was alluding to was your persistant resistence to someone you chronically, adamantly claim does not exist. But even your continued involvement on the forum would seem to belie something else. It would be like me hanging out on a forum, aguing or proclaiming I don't believe the "man in the moon" is really a man. Or Daffy Duck wasn't really daffy. Or ...you get my point.</li>
</ol>
<p>Or to suggest that people who love you obediently and sufficiently enough to pray for you are somehow beneath the intellect of those whom they're praying for or that one should be angry and protest that they are praying for you, well that's like saying "you'd better NOT wish me well or good luck or I'll kick your bootie." </p>
<p>It would suggest that you're behavior models the boy walking thru the graveyard @ midnite head down, assuring himself "I ain't afraid a no ghosts. Ain't no ghosts. Ain't no ghosts ... " It would seem to reveal indeed ...you're working like mad to assure yourself, "there ain't no Jesus. there ain't no Jesus..."</p>
<ol>
<li>And as my grandma always said, "misery LOVES company ..." and 2000 years of history shows you're anything but alone, starting with the crowd that insisted that Jesus be crucified EVEN though the judge had just declared ... "NOT GUILTY! This man has done nothing wrong anyone can find." But there they were ...the crowd calling "Crucify the dude. We don't care that he's innocent." </li>
</ol>
<p>Now, why was that???? What do YOU think?</p>
<p>Stay tuned. </p>
<p>"I think the Road Runner was really stupid." ;)</p>
<p>I don't understand your post Whistle Pig. Agreed, fromthesouth was vocal in his protests, but it was more like a wounded animal lashing out, then anything else. Why involve an atheist in your prayers?</p>
<p>yes, I understand his woundedness and lashing out, but one has to wonder why anyone might be "wounded" by the well-wishing of people he deems subpar to his intellect to begin with ... and why resist or rebuke something or someone that does not even exist. </p>
<p>Thus my previous observation and pursuant point ...why protest something one claims doesn't exist. Like trying to argue that Mickey Mouse is gay. Or the Tin Man didn't really need a heart. It makes no sense, and reveals something else, a much deeper sense that perhaps even the protester does not recognize, i.e. that their anger, resistance exposes something else about the resistor's deeper feeling and understanding. </p>
<p>And as for the prayers for aetheists, that is one of the 3 main charges expected of all Christians, i.e. to seek out and pray for the lost ...along with loving God, and loving neighbors. Coincidentally in this case the neighbor happens to be an aetheistic lost soul whom we're called to love and care for.</p>
<p>But even the reaction of so-called non-believers reveals something far more ...great fear and trepidation that if their presumed conviction is wrong, it's an eternal mistake. Conversely as another nicely noted, if he's right, all it leads to is emptiness for there is no real purpose to one's existence. It's eat, drink, and be merry ...do anything and everything one desires for tomorrow he be dead. </p>
<p>On the other hand if the Christian is wrong, nothing has been lost for they've been trying to live life in a godly fashion that serves others. And if we're right? Well, not only has life on earth been better for us and others, but it gets even better ...forever. There is no downside or risk to Believing. </p>
<p>As for point #2 above, don't you have to believe that a great many of the crowd crying for JC's crucifiction were aetheists, who absolutely hated this man proclaiming to be God and having done not one single thing wrong. He was the ultimate Good Guy, the great buster of all curves, who all the students loved to hate. Why? Because we were so shamed in His presence. That's why aetheists love to hate Jesus and those who've decided to follow Him. </p>
<p>And all the while feeling pretty confident, perhaps smug, pretty "smart", and surely hopeful that this Curvebuster of all time was finally getting "His" so to speak. And for sure they were hoping against hope that they weren't wrong, i.e. that like fromthesouth, they'd never have to stand before this man they were in the business of cheering on to his crucifiction. </p>
<p>Even JC's disciples had the same feelings. Let me suggest 2 illustrations. 1 is in Matthew in which Jesus and the boys are out for a night of fishing. JC's chilling in the back of the boat, catching Z's, when one helluva storm comes up and the lads are very afraid. They wake JC, begging him to do something to avoid calamity and death. So he did. And what does it say then? Did they party and slap his back, saying "COOL!" No, they became VERY AFRAID then. As well they should. They did not get this man at all.</p>
<p>Illustration #2...The lads are futiley fishing when JC comes down to the boat. "Hey what's happenin' guys?" "Ah fishin' is awful!"</p>
<p>"No sweat, put your nets over here and you'll git 'er dun" They did ...and THEY DID. The boats almost sunk from the massive load of fish. And what did Simon Peter say, the precise person on whom Jesus would build his church? "Get AWAY from me!" He knew this was something he could not understand and that he was simply totally unworthy of being in his presence. </p>
<p>Any clearer or should I try another approach to explaining the feelings exhibited here phenomenon?</p>
<p>Ah. Now I begin to see what's going on in your mind. And as much as I disagree with fromthesouth's posts, I can look at it from his perspective too, and it makes perfect sense.</p>
<p>First things first, in my previous post, I meant than, not then. Typo.</p>
<p>Now. Back to business.
Before Christ walked the Earth, people weren't atheists. Hinduism, Islam and (insert Jewish religion here, is it called Jewish?) were already in existence. And very widely practised. One of the main reasons why people converted to Christianity in the first place was that they could see Christ as a real person, in front of them, and that was something they could relate to. But that doesn't put Christianity any higher than any other religion, or alternately, no religion at all. </p>
<p>You could pray for an atheist, but you shouldn't tell him or her that, because that borders on imposition of religion. It's probably hard for you to understand that because you've been taught since you were a child that those who don't follow Christ are lost, but that's a very narrow minded way of looking at things. Do not for even a moment think that atheists have no moral principles, that they don't care for life on Earth, that they mess up the world for everyone else. And, consequently, those who follow Christ could be termed very lost indeed. Suggesting that Christians don't sin is a fallacy. And, in my opinion, the crime rate ratio among Christians is much higher than the rate among atheists. (I have no statistical data for this, but I bet it's true) Also, note I said ratio. That means I'm taking population into account.</p>
<p>You mentioned that without God, people would just be merry and eat and drink. That would mean you've assumed life has a purpose. I don't know where you got that from (maybe from the Bible, I don't know) but the truth is life doesn't have a purpose. Life per se has not changed from how it was before Christ was born. People are born, and they die. That's how it was before. Babies didn't come from space riding on meteors. It is only your perception of life that has changed. You are attempting to attach reason or practicality to something that is hard to understand. Indeed, that's what every religion attempts to do. In fact, some things can be so chaotic and scary (like maybe there's no God to protect you from stuff happening) that religious people refuse to deny the existence of God. And it is the atheist's understanding of the chaotic that irks believers.</p>
<p>Denying Christ existed is stupid. There is scientific evidence that he lived, and if nothing else, atheists believe in science. However attaching the God label on him is the controversial part. Those stories you narrated might be true. Alternately they might be fictional accounts intended to impress on the reader the power of Christ, discouraging the reader from conducting sinful activities. (here sinful is from the perspective of the Christian. As I mentioned, to an atheist it's moral principles)</p>
<p>Anyway. I've lectured for too long. I'll finish off by summarizing everything I wrote above.
Atheists don't carry out conversion drives, don't attempt to impose religion, etc. It would be fair to leave them alone too. They don't have the same concept of life as you, and you've got to accept that. Only then would there be understanding, and maybe threads like this one won't have to be created at all.</p>
<p>blue,</p>
<p>While some atheists are content to not impose their lack of religion on those around them, many atheists do impose their lack of religious beliefs on others. Look around the US....where Christianity is being pushed into the closets by atheists. Don't you dare mention God or Jesus in a positive light in public schools. Don't offer up a general prayer at a high school football game in a region that is highly religious, it will bring about a lawsuit by the ACLU. Don't try to pray over your lunch at a public school, you will be chastised by administration.</p>
<p>A couple of years ago, when I was extremely active in youth ministry, a group of my church kidlings all attended the same elementary school with my oldest daughter. One Wednesday night, during our youth meeting, several of the girls recanted an event that had occurred that day during lunch. 5 of the kids all ate lunch together at the same table and had tried praying over their lunch as a group. They were scoulded by school administrators, told that they were not allowed to pray on school property and if they were ever caught praying again, they would be suspended for 7 days. I tried assuring the girls that they must have misunderstood or maybe they were praying too loudly but the girls were very upset about it, so I agreed to meet them for lunch the next day. When I sat with the girls, they asked me to pray over the meal, so in my lowest library voice, I began a generic prayer. The girls and I were bowing our heads and holding hands around the table. My daughter who was the furthest from me was leaning in just so she could hear what I was saying. About half way into the prayer, someone from adminsitration interupted and demanded I leave the premises immediately as I had violated school regulations by praying. When I went to the office to talk to the principal (instead of making of scene inside the lunchroom), I was informed that praying on campus violated state and federal regulations because I was imposing my religious beliefs on others. I asked if the students were permitted to bow their heads and say a silent prayer before their meal, and was told no, it was still considered to be imposing one's religion on others. Even when presented documentation from the Supreme Court, I was told that the kids still could not pray over their meal and would face suspension if they were caught, and the school board wouldn't even hear my case. </p>
<p>Now, understand....I live in the Bible Belt, in a town with over 300 Christian churches inside the city limits. Most of the population is either Christian, Jewish or atheist...and no one in the school prescribed to any other type of religious belief (such as Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, etc). The Supreme Court has ruled that student led prayer is acceptable in pubic schools and that individuals are permitted to pray (or read their Bibles during free-time)...but it is still stiffled. There was a Jewish boy who attended the school, and I personally witnessed him praying over his meal, and no one said anything to him about it. When I confronted the principal with this, she informed me that only the Christian faith was excluded from public schools, so he was permitted to pray if he wanted.</p>
<p>So, to your "leave the atheists alone" request....I pose this request, maybe atheists can leave Christians alone for a while and let us worship the God of our choice. Why must Christianity be the only religion that must be tolerant of other beliefs or lack of beliefs?? Why must Christians always be the ones to be considerate of those who don't agree with our beliefs? Why are we the ones who must watch what we say and who is around when we discuss our beliefs?</p>
<p>A few thoughts ...</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Aetheists are highly religious. Allegedly, it's just not in belief and worship of their Creator. In fact it is worshipping against Him. There is no middle ground, no sort of "no man's land" or area where there is no engagement like that between North and South Korea. They are closed to Christ and as Christ then said of all who fail to believe in Him are against Him. They are lost souls.</p></li>
<li><p>However, it is the lost souls that Christians are then commanded, not recommended or suggested or encouraged to seek out to share the Gospel with. </p></li>
<li><p>We should not despair, be surprised, or avoid the attacks of non-Believers. To the contrary, if they are attacking, we should take great comfort. Why? Because they recognize us, and more important they recognize their own severe misalignment with He who leads us. Painful as it might be, we should celebrate and hope that God views us like these earthly beings who are so very very uncomfortable with the whole idea of needing and knowing a Savior. Most prefer to view themselves as perfectly themselves, unable to be remade. Christians indeed view ourselves as the sinners full of ourselves that we are, but are so thankful that it need not be "all that we can be." We're sort of like God's Marines. And always always looking for a few good men and women willing to take the beach for Him. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>And like the Marines, we've got the greatest uniforms that we get to wear forever.</p>
<p>So you see, Christianity demands that Christians cannot "leave the aetheists alone" for by His rules, it ain't over until the judgement day, which comes for all, whether we like it or not.</p>
<p>I agree, Whistle. I do, however, get very aggitated when non-believers proclaim that they are leaving Christians alone. For once, I would LOVE to come across a non-believer who is honest and admits what they are trying to accomplish. Being hated doesn't bother me :)</p>
<p>So you freely admit that imposition of religion is what Christianity advocates? That it's either Jesus or nothing?</p>
<p>Ultimately, it is either an eternity with Jesus or an eternity in hell. As Christians our ultimate responsibility is to spread His Word throughout the world, so that no one will have an excuse when they stand before Jesus. Ultimately, it is each individual's decision whether to follow Jesus or not, but no one will be able to say that they had no knowledge of the Truth. We aren't to force our beliefs on people...it isn't believe in Jesus or be killed. In fact, that mentality is completely OPPOSITE of God's commandments. We are not to stand in judgment of others, where their faith is concerned...that is between them and God, as only He knows the true condition of their soul.</p>
<p>But just because some don't want to hear His Truth, it doesn't mean we have to shut up and hide in the shadows. If you don't want to believe in the Truth, fine, but who are you (non-believers) to decide that no one shold be able to hear the Truth proclaimed?</p>
<p>blue_box: I think they asked the same question (do you have to believe in Jesus to be saved?) to Jesus. </p>
<p>Thomas said* to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" Jesus said* to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 14:5-6 (NASB translation)</p>
<p>Another piece of scripture to think on:
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18 (NASB)</p>
<p>Is this to say that nobody who does not believe in Jesus would be saved? Only God knows the answer to the question. But look into the protestant doctrine of "sola fide" (faith alone), and you'll see why most Christians stress the importance of personal faith and belief in our Savior.</p>
<p>From my inference, it does look like Christianity advocates faith in Jesus as the only way to heaven. Another thing to remember, I495, is that Christianity is the only religion that terms God their saviour. I believe it's the only religion that states humanity needs saving. That we're all sinners, etc.
NikkiiL: If you're going to do everything you can to get God word's out, then how can I fault non-believer's AT ALL for trying to suppress it?</p>
<p>"Ultimately, it is either an eternity with Jesus or an eternity in hell."</p>
<p>What's the bible passage that says eternity in hell?</p>
<p>Vossron: actually an interesting question, as there's a divide over whether the concept involves permanent death (in which one loses consciousness and is simply destroyed, but spared everlasting torment) or infinite punishment. </p>
<p>Either way, I would pick Heaven. :-)</p>
<p>Well, despite ones leaning towards either a permanent death that results in no torment or an eternity of torture, being separated from ones Creator and Savior is hell. And there are MANY MANY passages in the Bible that support an everlasting separation from God if one chooses to remain unsaved:</p>
<p>Psalms 115:17; 2 Peter 2:4; Revelation 14:9-11; Luke 12:4-5; Matthew 13:41-42; Matthew 23:14</p>
<p>These are but a few that mention the fate of those who do not believe in Christ as Lord and Savior.</p>