This forum was a bad idea

College Search & Selection
101

<p>fromthesouth: from time to time, I allow myself to examine the deepest regions of my soul. And when I do, I'm always surprised to find that the Holy Spirit was there all along. </p>

<p>vossron: given your latest post, it sounds like you've been a subscriber to the "flat earth myth"--namely, the idea that Christians (and other people) in the Middle Ages thought the Earth was flat. It turns out that they knew just as well as you of our planet's curvature.
Myth</a> of the Flat Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An earlier post of yours brought up the "7000-year-old Earth" theory. I'm not a Biblical literalist, so I think the universe is billions, not thousands of years old. Ask around, though, and you'll find plenty of Christians who advocate that the "days" of Genesis are actually metaphors for periods of indeterminate length. </p>

<p>As for the apparent strife among Christians: I think fromthesouth alluded to the answer. Perhaps your sisters and other believers enjoy a good argument, too. ;-) Personally, I've been looking into debates over the five solas (sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus, sola scriptura and soli Deo gloria) and the merits of each. As a non-calvinist, my general understanding of the free will / nature of prayer conflict is this: God answers prayers and intercedes in daily life to the point where we become aware of His presence, but not to the extent where free will becomes obsolete.</p>

<p>Are there arguments within Christianity? Absolutely! And as you said yourself, nothing I say here is generally true of all believers. (I'm not calling myself faultless on any point, mind you.) But perhaps that will help you remember that Christians do not simply follow what their pastor or the nice evangelist on channel 94 says; they are determined to find God's truth, even if it unsettles them. I know I've switched back and forth myself on the topic of soteriology, but the Lutheran position is where I'm closest to at the moment. </p>

<p>While we're all here, does anyone know where they're going to college?</p>

102

<p>I wasn't singling out any particular group or time, but, thanks, now I know that belief in the flat earth died out by the 14th century. Science won then, and is still in the process of winning. But the bible is unequivocal about a flat earth:</p>

<p>Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them</p>

<p>And checking wikipedia, I learned that there are still Christians who believe the earth is at the center of the universe, because literal reading of the bible says so; science is still trying to win this one. But I understand the danger; if you disbelieve one word of the bible, then the whole thing can come crashing down.</p>

<p>"God answers prayers and intercedes in daily life to the point where we become aware of His presence, but not to the extent where free will becomes obsolete."</p>

<p>I suspect that this is not explained in one particular bible verse, so is invented, interpreted, whatever. This is still a case of one Christian suggesting what god does.</p>

<p>I'm curious, so I'll see if cs lewis can explain how or why god tells one person to crash an airliner, and tells another to kill the crashers.</p>

<p>I still like the selective belief in science.</p>

<p>"they are determined to find God's truth, even if it unsettles them."</p>

<p>So is it okay to conclude that some words in the KJV (including passages not contained in pre-English versions) are wrong? I realize I'm asking just a few Christians here.</p>

103

<p>Nikii: I already believe in God. Not your God, my God. Claiming your God is right and mine is wrong would be rude and offensive, and I'd recommend you don't go into that area.</p>

<p>You remember that incident I wrote about on this thread? About the Christian kids thinking I'd go to hell? After 7 pages of debating I now understand their mindset, and it most closely resembles your's. Allow me to summarise it.
You are firm in your belief of God. You are not willing to acknowledge the validity of another type of God, or consequently another religion. Considering the truth of atheism would probably be blasphemy. You subscribe to the belief that God sends people to Hell, yet claim him to be loving and forgiving. You say he sends people to Hell for not believing in him. Know this then, I would rather go to Hell then believe in the sadistic, rather attention seeking image of God you are trying to portray. And I'm not even an atheist.</p>

<p>Vossron:
"God works in mysterious ways."
That seems an all purpose excuse. Very convenient. You could justify anything with that. Very, very convenient.</p>

104

<p>vossron: in the Bible, we see those who decide to follow God's will and those who follow their own will. We also see God answering prayers. At the very least, the Bible shows that both free will and prayer have relevance.
Did I not tell you that I wasn't a Biblical literalist? My faith is grounded in God, not a book that may (or may not) contain only God's inspired truth. And judging from many passages, yes, I see how parts of the Bible could have been written without divine inspiration. That doesn't give me nightmares at night.</p>

<p>blue_box: I don't think NikkiL is being rude or offensive here. We feel that God Himself has told us about His nature through a number of ways (Jesus' teachings, inspired portions of the Bible, the Holy Spirit, etc), and that those teachings are worth sharing. One such teaching is that only one God exists, though us humans might perceive Him in different ways. </p>

<p>As for the concept of hell: you seem fixated on the idea that God tosses people into the flames, but our choices--namely, our decision to accept His unconditional grace or not--determine our final resting place. I know you won't be satisfied with that answer, so I've included a link to a sermon by Timothy Keller, a well known preacher and apologetic. I think the title is "Hell: Isn't the God of Christianity an angry judge?"
<a href="http://download.redeemer.com/sermons/Hell_Isnt_the_God_of_Christianity.mp3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://download.redeemer.com/sermons/Hell_Isnt_the_God_of_Christianity.mp3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you like what you hear, I'd strongly recommend checking out Keller's similar sermons.</p>

<p>Vossron: you might get something out of Keller's sermon on "God and injustice": <a href="http://download.redeemer.com/sermons/Suffering_If_God_is_good.mp3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://download.redeemer.com/sermons/Suffering_If_God_is_good.mp3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The message I'm trying to emphasize is: never be content with your own understanding of religion. Read. Listen. You might even pick up the most-published book in history and look through the New Testament. (Or even the Old Testament!) There's little that I can offer you in terms of explanation and knowledge, but for every question you have, there is an answer. Go out and find it. (Or simply listen when God wants to reveal it to you.)</p>

<p>On a final note: if you're interested in the "battle" between faith and science, I would recommend picking up a book by John Polkinghorne. I admit that "Faith of a Physicist" went way over my head, but he's written a number of titles on the subject. Francis Collins' "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief" appears to be one of the most popular books in the genre.</p>

105

<p>One more thing: I don't understand your fixation with the concept of "hell." In the NASB version of the Bible, that word appears only 13 times. The Kingdom of God, on the other hand, has 198 occurrences. (Heaven appears 490 times, but not all of those refer to the Heaven associated with eternal life.) Salvation appears 185 times, but "damnation" does not show up even once.</p>

106

<p>Narrow-mindedness can be construed as rudeness... </p>

<p>"God is tugging at those heart strings, calling you to return to Him. You may not admit it now, but that doesn't change the fact"</p>

<p>"... that mention the fate of those who do not believe in Christ as Lord and Savior."</p>

<p>"Ultimately, it is either an eternity with Jesus or an eternity in hell."</p>

<p>Oh and NikiiL, I just saw this quote while browsing through the pages:</p>

<p>" (Some societies are not as harsh as others...but there are areas of the world where the simple ownership of a Bible that never leaves your home can land you in prison for the rest of your life or set you in front of a firing squad.) "</p>

<p>Do you know the origin of Islamic fundamentalism? Or why they're specifically against Christians and not people from another religion, like Buddhists?</p>

107

<p>I don't understand why the numerical count matters. Isn't once enough?</p>

108

<p>There is only one God, blue...we cannot pick and choose which god we chose to follow. We cannot pick and choose which Biblical facts we hold to and which ones we disregard. If you've ever read the Bible, you know that God doesn't desire that anyone should perish in Hell, but He refuses to force us to believe in Him. Therefore, it really isn't God who sends non-believers to Hell, it is the non-believer who choses Hell as their final "resting" ground. God is in fact loving and forgiving, but He cannot allow sin to exist in His presence. He loves mankind so much that He sent Christ down to earth, in the form of a human man, to live amongst us, to suffer our day-to-day pains, and, most importantly, to take our sins upon Himself and provide us with an "achieveable" means of becoming saved. When Christ was crucified, He took our sins with Him to the grave. When we ask for forgiveness of our sins, He forgives them, without ever mentioning them to us again. When we face Him, we won't have to recount the numerous sins we have each committed prior to our salvation...they are completely gone. Tell me, the last time you wronged someone...and we have all wronged someone at some time in our lives...were they just as forgiving? Did they totally and completely forget what you had done? Probably not...man isn't as loving or forgiving. We like to say we are, but I know first hand that truly forgiving someone who has wronged me is extremely difficult, and I still struggle to completely forget the wrong committed against me.</p>

<p>When it comes to God's mysterious ways, it is only mysterious because we are incapable of thinking just like God. We cannot see the bigger picture, we do not know the future and how something today truly affects something we will face in 10 years. God does. He takes our deepest hurts, deepest trials, and builds on them, creates something good out of it. It may be the ability to help someone who is also going through a similiar situation, it may be the salvation of those around us. Science doesn't have all the answers. Science cannot explain why some people are immediately healed of deadly illnesses, or why some people survive situations that should have killed them. Science cannot explain many humanistic traits that cause the ugliest of evils. Science cannot even explain why an otherwise loving woman would suddenly kill her own children. Why should we place our trust in man's science? Now, that doesn't mean that I totally dismiss science...it has its place in society, but it definately doesn't have all of the answers and never will.</p>

<p>God didn't tell the 9/11 terrorists to hijack the airplanes and crash them into buildings...God didn't tell America to seek revenge against terrorism. Man made their own decisions, apart from God's guidance. To try to place those 9/11 terrorists into the same classification as Christians is absurd, they don't even subscribe to Christianity, but Islam...which is clearly different than any Christian tenant of faith. Had those people been listening to God, 9/11 would not have occurred. Had American politicians been listening to God, the subsequent revenge strikes would not have occurred...God clearly warns us that revenge is HIS, not ours.</p>

<p>You can twist God into anything that suits your fancy, but it doesn't make it right, it doesn't change who God really is. Denying the existance of Hell, in any form, doesn't change the fact that those who do not believe in Christ as Lord and Savior will be sent to Hell. There is only one true God and He does not tolerate sin or the creation of our own version of god.</p>

109

<p>"Or why they're specifically against Christians and not people from another religion, like Buddhists?"</p>

<p>It's certainly easy to understand: The Christian god told Christians to go to the Middle East to slaughter the Muslims during the crusades. Bush himself said he took his orders to destroy Iraq from his god.</p>

110

<p>Blue,</p>

<p>The numerical count matters because it shows where the emphasis is. Someting being mentioned only once within Scripture shows that the idea or concept isn't an emphasis. Something being repeated over and over clearly shows an importance. The fact that damnation and hell are minimally mentioned in any facet or term but the idea of salvation, Heaven, etc are mentioned over and over show God's love and grace, not His anger or judgment.</p>

<p>I do know the fundamentals of Islam, their reasoning. I do know that humans proclaiming Christianity went on murderous rampages forcing people to accept Christianity or die...but that doesn't mean they were correct...heck, it doesn't make them Christian. God does not tell us to kill those who do not choose to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. We are not supposed to spread His Word by deadly force. Those who follow that practice truly do not have Christ as their foundation. Salvation is an individual decision that cannot be forced upon anyone.</p>

<p>Do you understand the fundamentals as to why Islam doesn't target Buddism, Hinduism, etc but target Christians and Jews? Because Islam is threatened by both Christianity and Judiaism. Christianity holds the key to eternal salvation.</p>

<p>And my ideas are not narrow-minded. Christianity envelops numerous religious tenants, numerous denominational beliefs and differences. Christianity encompasses people within Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Anglicians, non-denominationalists, Assembly of God, Church of God, and many, many more denominations. Narrow-mindedness would be to proclaim that only Baptists or Pentecostals or some other denomination are the only ones with an understanding of Truth. I don't subscribe to this type of mentality. Some within each Christian denomination are true followers of Christ, some are not (belonging to a church doesn't make one a Christian automatically, so there are some who procalim themselves as Christian who truly are not). To be quite honest, no denomination has exclusive access to God or His Truth. No denomination is the only denomination that is correct. No denomination has His Word 100% accurate. We are a flawed society that enjoys creating our own version of god and we will all be surprised to discover how little of our denominational arguments really matter to God.</p>

111

<p>Okay Nikii, I've got a few questions. And no ambiguous answers.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I'm not Christian. Now let's say that in my religious scriptures it states that those who do not believe in my religion will be cursed, damned, whatever-ed. Would you believe it? Would you change religions on the off chance that what my scriptures say is true? I doubt you would.</p>

<ol>
<li>A follow up on the first question. In my assumed religion I'm worshipping God. You too are worshipping God. Yet clearly our Gods have two separate intents, guidelines, instructions. They are, for all intents and purposes, two separate Gods. Would the same God treat two of his disciples differently? No. That would be contrary to his teachings. So how could you claim that God is same for everyone? Are you denying the existence of other religions?</li>
</ol></li>
<li><p>Does it make sense that God would send anyone to Hell, just because they didn't believe in Him? Wouldn't that be very arrogant? You're in the US where life is comfortable, but that's not how it is around the world. Here in India where poverty and disease is rampant, do you expect the poor to believe in God and his wonders? To believe in a God who hasn't done a thing for them? They earn less than half a dollar a day, they have one square meal every 2 days, they have to walk ten miles to get water. Is that what God intended for them? I don't know if you've ever slept hungry... And I certainly doubt whether you've ever got a disease, and known there's no cure. And yet they pray to God. You know why? It's because they're scared of going lower. Is that really what God wants?</p></li>
<li><p>You have not read the Koran. I can see that. Islam is similar to Christianity in many ways. Both preach the same principles, the same way of life. The only difference is that the Bible encourages you to spread the word. Do your history textbooks tell you about the Christian missionaries who stormed through Asia on conversion drives, converting people to Christianity? Maybe they skipped that part of history. Islam preaches self defence. On the same token, Hinduism too preaches self defence. If you insist that it's either Jesus or nothing, then I don't expect you to understand the views of the 9 11 terrorists. But ask anyone else and you'll know they acted out of self defence. Their attack wasn't the first attack of war. It was retaliation. Do you still blame them? </p></li>
<li><p>Science doesn't have all the answers YET. You could have said the same thing 500 years ago, but the unanswered questions would have been more. Science is slowly answering questions we believed unanswerable. It's slow, but it's getting there. I believe in God too, but I also believe in the miracles of science.</p></li>
</ol>

112

<p>The denominations you mentioned are Christian denominations. I do not consider that open mindedness. And my previous post was a reply to post 108. I was typing it when you posted 110.</p>

113

<p>Blue_Box and Vossron: It would be wrong for me to change my perception of Islam after the 9/11 attacks, just as it would be incorrect to judge ANY religion by its followers. (I might have said this before, but I don't want anyone to judge Christianity based on what I do.). The terrorists obviously had nothing to do with the fundamental tenants of Islam, and anyone whose opinion of the world's second largest religion dropped because of that event is committing a horrible mistake. I hope that neither of you would judge my God based on my inadequacies or failures--or those of other Christians, like the crusaders. </p>

<p>Blue_Box: It seems arrogant to me to explain that the poor are religious "because they're scared of going lower." After all, as someone surrounded by material riches, I have more reason to be scared than those in India and Africa. </p>

<p>Vossron: I think both you and I know that God would not have wanted the slaughter of Iraqi citizens nor the slaughter of Jews or Muslims. You appear to trust the statements of Christians more than you trust their God--again, a large mistake. </p>

<p>"I don't understand why the numerical count matters. Isn't once enough?"
The word usage counts in the Bible that I referred to on the previous page shows us that God cares a lot more about Heaven than He cares about hell. </p>

<p>Finally--I'm going to post that link to Tim Keller's sermon on hell because it really is worth listening to.
"Hell: Isn't the God of Christianity an angry judge?"
<a href="http://download.redeemer.com/sermons/Hell_Isnt_the_God_of_Christianity.mp3%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://download.redeemer.com/sermons/Hell_Isnt_the_God_of_Christianity.mp3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You may enjoy Keller's entire sermon series, titled: "The Trouble with Christianity: Why It's so Hard to Believe it."
They can be found at Between</a> Two Worlds: Keller Sermons .</p>

114

<p>Could you explain your statement about being more scared than those in India and Africa? Is it because of your material possessions?</p>

115

<p>"You appear to trust the statements of Christians more than you trust their God--again, a large mistake."</p>

<p>We have only the statements of Christians (including their bible) to know what they think about their god and what they believe he wants and does, and they don't agree, making it gibberish to outsiders. The various gods "speak" only to their believers, who are the only ones "listening."</p>

<p>Mankind is in the process of switching from religion to science to explain the universe. It will still take some generations before the various fantasies are mostly abandoned.</p>

116

<p>Vossron: science and religion are not in direct conflict, nor need one choose one over the other. My interests in God lie in His plan for salvation; His love for the universe; His will for my own life. If He created life on earth by chemical processes and evolution, so be it. It doesn't conflict with my faith.</p>

<p>God speaks to everyone, not just Christians. The problem is that people ascribe those statements incorrectly. </p>

<p>Blue_Box: Yes, I am more scared. Because if I come to love the laptop sitting in front of me more than the God who saved me, or if I enjoy my warm bed more than the comfort of the Holy Spirit, I am doing a terrible disservice to the Lord. And you know what Jesus said about the rich's chances of going to Heaven.</p>

117

<p>Yes, I know what Jesus said. I read about it in the evolution vs creationism thread. But is there any logical justification for that? Why is it better to be poor than rich? Assuming, of course, that both are equally religious.</p>

118

<p>
[quote]
Okay Nikii, I've got a few questions. And no ambiguous answers.</p>

<ol>
<li>I'm not Christian. Now let's say that in my religious scriptures it states that those who do not believe in my religion will be cursed, damned, whatever-ed. Would you believe it? Would you change religions on the off chance that what my scriptures say is true? I doubt you would.

[/quote]
</li>
</ol>

<p>It would depend on the information available. The mere presence of scripture wouldn't be sufficient to make me change my mind.</p>

<p>
[quote]
2. A follow up on the first question. In my assumed religion I'm worshipping God. You too are worshipping God. Yet clearly our Gods have two separate intents, guidelines, instructions. They are, for all intents and purposes, two separate Gods. Would the same God treat two of his disciples differently? No. That would be contrary to his teachings. So how could you claim that God is same for everyone? Are you denying the existence of other religions?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Depending upon who you ask, God already has more than one intent, set of guidelines and set of instructions. In fact, it does create multiple gods, but doesn't override the reality that there is really only one real God, whose intent, guidelines and instructions are completly differnet than many think. And this one true God does in fact treat people different. You must believe in the one true God, not ones made up fantasy of what they want god to be. If you don't, then you face His judgment. Believing in a god that doesn't punish non-believers is in fact creating a new god. God is a jealous God...He will not share His powers or His creation. I do not deny that other religions have been created. But many of these other religions are so far from Christianity that I would go so far as to state that I know they are not THE religion. Many are truly cults or designed to elevate the individuals into a god-like status. We cannot become god and we cannot create our own feel-good version of god.</p>

<p>
[quote]
3. Does it make sense that God would send anyone to Hell, just because they didn't believe in Him? Wouldn't that be very arrogant? You're in the US where life is comfortable, but that's not how it is around the world. Here in India where poverty and disease is rampant, do you expect the poor to believe in God and his wonders? To believe in a God who hasn't done a thing for them? They earn less than half a dollar a day, they have one square meal every 2 days, they have to walk ten miles to get water. Is that what God intended for them? I don't know if you've ever slept hungry... And I certainly doubt whether you've ever got a disease, and known there's no cure. And yet they pray to God. You know why? It's because they're scared of going lower. Is that really what God wants?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>God is God...He can be as arrogant as He so desires. He made His creation and whether we agree with Him or not, His rules remain constant. Given my deep belief in God and His teachings, it does make perfect sense that God would send non-believers to Hell...He cannot stand sin and cannot allow sin to be in His presence. It isn't cruel, though. He has provided us with perfect redemption, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We don't have to be sentenced to an eternity in Hell...we can reside with God for eternity, the choice is ours.</p>

<p>It is easier for the poor to believe in Christ than it is for those who are not poor. The wealthy or financially comfortable tend to believe in themselves more than anything else. The poor are hungry for God's Word and they are eagerly drinking from His cup of grace. God wants us to learn to rely entirely on Him for EVERYTHING....health, happiness, love, grace....EVERYTHING. I have had illnesses healed instantaneously. I have seen deadly illnesses healed just as instantly. I have seen the lame walk, the mute speak and the deaf hear again. I have seen situations where people should have been killed instantly survive, cancer and tumors disappear completely.</p>

<p>I am blessed to have been born in a country where I am free and secure, but I do know what it is like to be poor and wonder how I was going to feed my children. I have wondered how I was going to keep the roof over my head. But it was during those times that my faith became intense, as I placed my trust in my Savior. Somehow, by the grace of God, my family has never become homeless or had to go days without food. He has always provided for us, because we do not rely on ourselves to make it through each day. Each day I can provide for my family is a blessing provided directly by God.</p>

<p>Just as I rely on God when times get tough, those in India, and around the world, rely on Him, not because they are afraid of getting any lower, but because they have seen the Truth and realize that the treasures on content will never exist on this earth. Maybe you should talk to some of those Christian poor and see why they still believe despite their dispare....how they can hold onto Jesus when they have no material posessions. Their answers might surprise you.</p>

<p>In countries where belief in Christianity is reason enough to be put to death, it isn't fear that draws the poor to Christ. It isn't the fear of being reduced to a lower level that keep their faith in God intact.</p>

<p>
[quote]
4. You have not read the Koran. I can see that. Islam is similar to Christianity in many ways. Both preach the same principles, the same way of life. The only difference is that the Bible encourages you to spread the word. Do your history textbooks tell you about the Christian missionaries who stormed through Asia on conversion drives, converting people to Christianity? Maybe they skipped that part of history. Islam preaches self defence. On the same token, Hinduism too preaches self defence. If you insist that it's either Jesus or nothing, then I don't expect you to understand the views of the 9 11 terrorists. But ask anyone else and you'll know they acted out of self defence. Their attack wasn't the first attack of war. It was retaliation. Do you still blame them?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There are some major differences between Christianity and Islam. First and foremost, Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, Lord and Savior. Muslims believe Jesus was only a prophet, like Muhammad. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified for the sins of man, they do not believe that atonement for sins exist. Muslims believe that man is born sin-less and through hard work, they can remain sinless. Christians know that Jesus was crucified for our sins and that atonement for our sins is only available because of His sacrifice. Christians believe that we are born sinful and no amount of hard work can erase our sins (There are some sects of Christianity that believe that hard work can keep you saved).</p>

<p>The 9/11 terrorists did not act in self-defense...what they did was calculated, cold-blooded murder. There is no defense for the senseless killing of unarmed men, women and children....no matter who is committing the offense. I do not blame all Muslims for the actions of the 9/11 terrorists, but I do not hold the 9/11 terrorists blameless. People like that of any religion are dangerous.</p>

<p>My history books do tell of the inquistions, where fools who thought they were acting on behalf of God, brutally murdered those who refused to convert to Christianity. They may have carried the banner of Christianity but they were not in touch with God's will and unless they repented of their sinful cruelty, they will have to answer to God for thier actions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
5. Science doesn't have all the answers YET. You could have said the same thing 500 years ago, but the unanswered questions would have been more. Science is slowly answering questions we believed unanswerable. It's slow, but it's getting there. I believe in God too, but I also believe in the miracles of science.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Science cannot even make up its mind about the health content of eggs. And yes, science is answering questions we believed unanswerable....but who is sure that the answers they are providing are correct?? In 10 years, as more data become available, they will change their minds, yet again. The only miracle of science I have seen is the documentation proving that Jesus was a real man who was crucified.</p>

119

<p>I sort of predicted this:</p>

<p>
[quote]
But many of these other religions are so far from Christianity that I would go so far as to state that I know they are not THE religion.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
it does make perfect sense that God would send non-believers to Hell...He cannot stand sin and cannot allow sin to be in His presence.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now I really hope you understand what I mean by narrow-mindedness. I could try that and say point-blank that I'm right and Christianity is wrong. I could then point to a hundred inexplicable fallacies in Christianity to prove you wrong but I'm not going to do that. In fact, I'm pretty surprised that I'm directly opposing you. It seems the only way to negate your radical views. 9/11 was calculated, cold-blooded murder. Yet it was done in self-defense. It was retaliation for centuries of attempted oppression by Christians. It was, in their minds, an act of war, and an act of terror.
The Crusaders might not be 'true' Christians, however you define them, but they called themselves Christians and they invaded places in the name of Christ.
I found this while surfing the net. It might interest you.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you have ever read Christian literature, watched or listened to Christian media or debated with a Christian regarding the bad things perpetrated in the name of God it should be very familiar to you. Christians have a horrible tendency to list all the worst examples of every other religion/ideology/group as proof positive that these guys are obviously wrong (not to mention evil) and Christianity is then obviously true – since Christians do none of these things. However, should someone bring up things like, the “Holy” Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem witch trails, the Christian persecution of Jews etc (it’s a very long list really) the immediate answer is “Well those don’t apply, because those people weren’t true Christians!”</p>

<p>It’s brilliant really. With this kind of reasoning, Christianity is bulletproof. We get to claim everything good done by people calling themselves Christian but the moment a Christian does anything wrong, we don’t have to claim responsibility for that since obviously he wasn’t a true This way Christianity gets to be perfect (in the eyes of Christians anyway, I doubt anyone else is fooled) and no one gets to prove different. After all, you need to define something before you can prove it wrong and when it comes to this one the definition can be slippery. Basically the definition of a "true Christian" is whatever it needs to be in order to dismiss the argument against us (the same thing happens with the ever elusive Biblical kind). Maybe I should rephrase, it’s brilliant but it’s also cowardly.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is just the introduction. Please read the whole article out here:
A</a> life in juxtaposition: No True Christian</p>

120

<p>"Christians have a horrible tendency to list all the worst examples of every other religion/ideology/group as proof positive that these guys are obviously wrong (not to mention evil) and Christianity is then obviously true – since Christians do none of these things."</p>

<p>Did we not have this discussion earlier? i'll quote my response below:
"It would be wrong for me to change my perception of Islam after the 9/11 attacks, just as it would be incorrect to judge ANY religion by its followers. (I might have said this before, but I don't want anyone to judge Christianity based on what I do.). The terrorists obviously had nothing to do with the fundamental tenants of Islam, and anyone whose opinion of the world's second largest religion dropped because of that event is committing a horrible mistake. I hope that neither of you would judge my God based on my inadequacies or failures--or those of other Christians, like the crusaders."</p>

<p>I don't pick my religion based on what people do in the name of the deity they worship; as I said, if I were to reject Islam based ONLY on what Muslims did, how could I ever expect you to find Christ? Rather, religion for me is a matter of finding the way to God. And the way is Christ, nothing else. In Protestantism, we call that "solus Christus." </p>

<p>In short, every religion has its "good" and "bad" people. The difference with Christianity is that we consider all of us bad people, acknowledge the need for Christ's sacrifice and trust in the Holy Spirit that can make us good. </p>

<p>Judge Christianity by its followers, and you'd have a bullet-ridden religion. Judge Christianity by God and His saving grace, and you have new life. </p>

<p>One more point: there's a difference between justification and sanctification in Christianity. You are a Christian when you repent for your sins and profess faith and belief in the fact that God, in His love, had Jesus die in your place; at this point, you are justified (considered sinless by God in light of your sins) and receive the Holy Spirit.)</p>

<p>Now, at this point, you're not sinless (just as i'm not sinless); however, you have forgiveness from your sins (through Jesus) and God's working within you to produce righteousness (through the Holy Spirit). These are the two ways in which God steers you away from sin and makes you just as righteous as He perceived you to be from the beginning of your faith. The mark of a Christian, then, is not sinlessness, but forgiveness from God a gradual turning away from sin through the work of the Holy Spirit. </p>

<p>Thus, if a new Christian robs a bank, I can't judge them based on their act, knowing that I've committed sins myself. However, if the same "Christian" commits the same act forty years later and professed faith in Jesus all that time, I have to wonder if the Holy Spirit--which produces signs of a changed life--was truly within them. </p>

<p>In short: I don't want to judge religions based on the actions of their members, as God knows better than me about the depravity of humans, but rather by the truth (or lack thereof) of their message. Secondly, sanctification (sinless and righteousness) need not occur before one is justified (forgiven and saved), meaning a Christian's sins do not disprove their allegiance to Christ (lest they continue in the same, or worse yet sins for their whole life.) </p>

<p>Oh, and I don't get to "claim" any good act that any Christian, including myself, does. soli Deo gloria.</p>