I’m interested in applying Northwestern HPME.
Does anyone know when the application request opens? Also, when is the latest you can send the chemistry subject test?
Please @ me!
Asian Female
School: One of the top 5 STEM public high schools in USA
UW GPA: 3.78
Weighted GPA: 4.22
ACT: 36 (E:34 and all others 36)
SAT: 1540 (M:800, E:740)
Sat Math 2: 800
SAT Chem: 770
SAT Bio (M): 710
Science APs: Biology(4), Chemistry(5), Calculus BC(5), Computer Science (4)
Other science Subjects: Neurobiology, DNA
Extracurricular:
US Utility Patent holder along with other team members
40+ hours of doctor shadowing
200+ Hours of volunteering at Hospital
200+ Hours of research in a Hospital/Research center and expecting to submit a paper by Dec
Different clubs related to medical field
Expecting good recommendations from Chemistry and Neurobiology Teachers.
We are debating if to apply for BS/MD or take traditional path. As I see BS/MD admissions are really long drawn process with uncertain outcomes. Trying to see if we can save that energy in getting into good pre-med school.
If we want to try BS/MD, which schools we can try?
Dilemma is if we want to try for BS/MD, we loose an opportunity to try for ED for a good undergrad school.
Any suggestions or feedback will be appreciated
Despite coming from a top STEM school in the country, I feel a 3.78 gpa kind of holds you back in the BS/MD route.It is more likely that in such specialized schools that some one from the same class with higher credentials is going to apply to the same limited set of BS/MD programs that you do. And these programs don’t give you much leeway with respect to gpa just because you are coming from a top school (just as they don’t in traditional route for students from prestigious schools).
If you had a 5 in AP Bio and also a 800 in subject Chem, I would have recommended NW and BU, but without them it may not be worth the effort. You may still want to give it a shot to get a 800 or 790 in Chem subject test (90+ %ile) if it permits and may want to consider applying to these two. Also you are probably better off not submitting your Bio subject and SAT (regular) scores.
Now, the rest of the extra curriculars could offset the above, such as the patent or a published paper.
But it appears the paper can’t get published in time for applications, so that may not help much. See how much leverage you can draw from the patent.
You have to also realize another draw back with ED route, you will have to accept whatever financial award or aid they may (or not) give you. Even if you get a full ride else where later on you won’t be able to change your mind. So think about that factor even if you want to go through traditional route.
@rk2017 Thank you very much. That is a very good and honest feedback I ever got.
I do not know if it is worth the time and effort to improve Chem SAT with limited time now. So we will skip that.
What are the chances for Penn State or VCU BS/MD program or similar to that.
I agree with you completely on ED. Since my income if 150K+ I am not sure if my D can get any aid.
Question is which colleges can give full ride or any merit based aid with these kinds of stats/background? So far I heard of only UPitt on east coast. Any pointers will be appreciated.
Actually I’d argue the contrary.
I think your daughters stats are fine- even though they may be a tad low.
I got into multiple (fairly decent) programs, with a slightly better gpa, pretty close test scores and pretty similar EC’s. My point is, I think her profile should be pretty competitive for mid-low tier programs. What state are you from? Oftentimes, that can be the most important factor for certain programs.
Regardless, as long as your daughter applies selectively and efficiently, I think she should be able to get into at least one program.
Regarding FAFSA, it’s very unlikely your daughter will get any aid unless she has a older sibling in college already.
Just a list off the top of my head of Northeast schools that give full rides (most should be safeties for your daughter);
RU Honors College
Drexel
NJIT
Temple
UCONN
Northeastern
@GreenPoison - thank you. We are from Virginia, which I think is very competitive. Currently my D not have any of the colleges you mentioned in her list.
Dilemma my daughter has is to try to get into one of the mid-low tier programs or do undergrad in a top tier and do MD after that. I am sure top tier do not give any aid.
Yes, you can apply widely, but it does take lot of effort and no one can predict the outcome. For NJ based programs like NJIT, RU (with NJMS) based on what I have heard from multiple people, the bar is too high as far as gpa is concerned - they don’t care if you are coming from a top of the nation high school or from a very ordinary one. Unless the gpa is 3.9 or in that range it may not make it to first cut for their direct med programs. Same with Temple I believe.
I like Penn State because they look deeper and is more reputed too. VCU expects too many voluntary hours like 500+ hours of documented ECs or something. Drexel is now a 8 year program so not as appealing as it used to be till last year.
I guess UConn has a heavy in state preference and North eastern doesn’t have a direct med program (or any for that matter) - unless you are referring to the traditional route for this and other schools above.
If considering traditional route I think GWU offers decent scholarships, but their fee is high though. I have heard folks mentioning schools like Vanderbilt offering full rides, but not sure what their stats are. Don’t get carried by the prestige of the school alone in traditional route. You need to find out how easy or difficult maintaining a good gpa would be as well as balancing it with a lot of ECs.
I concur with everything that @rk2017 says in the above post.
I would especially like to point out something rk mentions at the bottom of the post, which is that if your daughter is 100% confirmed on medicine, do not go to a top school and rack up student loans. Besides a select few schools (Vandy, USC, WashU etc.), most t-20 universities don’t offer any merit scholarships.
Coming from a not-so-advantageous state (though certainly nowhere near the bottom), I would advise your daughter to apply to as many program as possible if she decides to go this route.
We want to be around NVA area and do not want to go too far.
This is what we are thinking
BS/MD programs - We just want to attempt few and see how it goes.
Penn State
St Bona/GW
RPI
VCU
Premed colleges (Private). No ED. Based upon aid (if any) want to make final call.
Harvard (her dream school and just want to apply).
Emory
Case
Duke
Vanderbilt
GeorgeTown
Premed Colleges (State)
UMich
UVA (in-state)
W&M (in-state)
UPitt
UNC
GTech
UMD or UMBC
Any more suggestions?
- Good profile (all around) and don’t assume your GPA is a liability. Hence you should apply to both BS/MD and Regular UG programs/schools of your choice.
- Your assumption " really long drawn process with uncertain outcomes" is not correct. If you feel about BS/MD, then I am not sure how are you going to describe the regular MD process (which I am observing silently as my D is in that cycle). It starts from May 1 and ends only on June 30 (13 looooooooog months) for many.
- If you are reasonably certain medicine is your career choice (and have done to understand), then better to avoid ED.
- May differ " BS/MD mid-low tier programs or do undergrad in a top tier ". Apply to top, mid and low tiers for both BS/MD and regular UG. Then later decide depending on factors which are critical to your situation (cost, location, school etc).
- If $150+k, you are not going to get need based. Only you can hope for Merit aid. If finance is a critical factor, then apply to selective top schools which give merit aid (All 8 IVY school and most of top schools are need based only) like Chicago, Vandy, Rice in top 20 and apply to schools which give National Merit Scholarship NMS (mostly they are mid to low tiers) like UAB, OU, NJIT (you can research and get the current list).
- Suggestions:
BS/MD: RPI/AMC, Rice/Baylor, Pitts, Northwestern, UofRochester, CWRU, Stonybrook, TCNJ-NJIT/NJMS, OU
UG: Chicago, Vandy, USC, + NMS Schools (if finance is critical)
Excellent high school with good stats.
I think your daughter could do well both in direct BS/MD and traditional routes as long as she has a clear goal, which is to get into a medical school. If your daughter is willing to take one, two or even three year gap years and also willing to have a D.O. after her name, she could apply to top tier colleges, otherwise she should choose a college that is just beneath her level.
Since many of our patients attended “one of the top 5 STEM public high schools in USA” just like your daughter, I have many patients who underwent “pre-med” experience at top tier colleges. Students who have attended Harvard, JHU, Cornell, WashU, Northwestern, UChicago, UPenn, Duke did not fare better than those who attended U of Rochester, U MIchigan and NYU. Unlike in high school science courses, they only allocate ONLY 10 to 20% As in colleges. And most students make the mistake in their logic that they can get that A if they try their best, but they fail to realize that most of serious pre-meds think just like them. Therefore, unless you are confident that you will be in top 10% in a particular school, one should not attend that school. Even today one of my bright Ivy undergraduate informed me that she is going to take one or two year gap years. With that in mind, I recommend following programs:
Direct BS/MD: RPI , VCU, GW, Rochester, Case, Penn State and Pitt
Regular programs: All of undergraduate programs listed above plus UNC, Brandeis, Vilanova, U of Maryland,
Most of above programs should give a merit scholarship to your daughter. For example, $30K/yr. from Case and $20K/yr. from RPI.
Good luck!
Good observations by everyone! I am sure they will provide good guidance for students and parents down the time line with similar questions. Just wanted to add couple of points based on my own observations and as noted by students from the Official 2018 results thread.
- RPI/AMC, especially the latter seems to be high school gpa fanatic (based on the 2018 results thread comment by some one). Doesn't hurt to apply but better not keep high expectations. RPI undergrad is tough and grade deflated.
- Pitt direct med program seems to believe that a student should take every possible course at the highest possible level offered in the high school (such as AP history instead of honors) irrespective of the student's interests and score the highest possible grade in each of them. Some one also commented on the results thread, that no point in applying with anything less than a 36 on ACT or a 1600 on SAT.
- I don't see much reason in applying to Rice/Baylor or Baylor/Baylor (which may be only for TX residents) no matter how good one's credentials may be, with 6 slots in each with most of them going to TX residents anyways.
- I would recommend BU more than the above two programs (in 3), provided the geographical location is not an issue. Despite my aforementioned advice against it in an earlier post, it is probably more realistic to get in there with an intake of 25-30 into the program (out of a 2000+ applicants pool last year), and the BU admissions committee looking deeper than mere gpas and test scores. Also for NMS finalists it seems they were giving away 20k/year undergrad scholarship. But bear in mind BU is a tough grading school for traditional route, though it may not be an issue as long as the student can manage to be in the top 15-20% in every class, he or she can still maintain a close to 4.0 gpa.
- Emory is a great school for traditional route, provided the student can withstand the rigor and survive the basic weed out courses in the first couple of years. Heard not so good stuff about GaTech (in fact of the 10 students who got in there from D's high school batch, none went there. Perhaps in case of 3 or 4 of them, may have been due to preferring more prestigious schools or better scholarships elsewhere, but in general people tend to have negative vibes about it in pre med route). UMich seems to be a reasonable school to bet on (though scholarships are doubtful for out of state).
- Georgetown used to ask for 3 subject SAT tests but not sure if that is still the requirement. If so, then your D needs to retake Molecular Bio SAT test. Also not sure of chances of getting scholarships there, it is a darn expensive school.
@rk2017 @upstream @GoldenRock thank you all for your feedback and suggestions.
@DSOF20192023 Since you plan to apply to Case and UPitt, as well apply to their BS/MD programs also.
If they don’t select for BS/MD, still you may get admitted for the UG. UPitt gives almost free tuition. Case also gives $20-27k merit aid. Evaluate Rice also. Since it has BS/MD (which is very hard to get), but their UG is an excellent choice for pre-med and they also give merit aid (only for very few students).
@DSOF20192023 and others interested in knowing financial awards(merit based) info of different institutions,
You can check the common data set of each institution you are interested in and then look up the latest common data set. For example I searched on the web “Georgetown common data set” and got a few results back and picked this one:
You can either view this info directly in the web browser itself in pdf or excel formats or may have to download (which I had to for Georgetown). I found out from section H2A item n) that Georgetown offers NO Non-need based award (merit) at all.
I similarly checked BU and was led to the same section where item n) says 185 out of 3498 of the incoming class of 2017 were awarded merit awards of 24k each. That is 5.3% of the incoming class, rather low but better than 0% of Georgetown: 2) https://www.bu.edu/oir/files/2018/03/cds-2018-H.pdf
When it comes to state schools it gets not so straight forward, because there is no split shown between in state and out of state students. The award given to an instate student can completely cover his or her entire tuition (instate) whereas for out of state it may be only a tiny percentage. Also there is no differentiation shown between the awards based on state residency status.
For example, UPitt gave awards for 338 out of 3951 incoming class (~8.6%) with the average award of 12k each.
3) https://pre.ir.pitt.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Pittsburgh-Campus-CDS_2017-2018-2.pdf
So I would suspect the number of students getting a “full ride” from out of state (meaning awards of at least the full tuition and may be more) is not likely to be more than 1-2% of the total incoming class.
Aware that both students and parents are super busy with the admission process. But whenever you get some time, if not now, even in the next year or two, check out this book. Grit, the power of passion and perseverance by Angela Duckworh.
Though the book is relevant and very useful for any one, thought it is more special for this group since it is hard for 17-18 year old to make a commitment for a long and challenging profession like medicine.
Hi guys,
I’m going to be a rising junior (not in 8th grade) and would like some advice how how to become more competitive.
Stats:
Research:
Bioinformatics/Cancer Biology: 320 hours (8 weeks)
Hematology/Oncology: 320 hours (8 weeks)
Will be conducting BME research over junior year and into summer -maybe paper/poster?
Volunteering:
Local hospital - expected to reach 750 hours by graduation (started in 8th grade)
Shadowing: 80 hours expected -is this weak?
Ophthalmologist: clinical and surgical
Hematologist: clinical
Orthopedist: clinical and surgical
Internal Medicine: clinical
School stuff:
GPA: 4.0 UW, no ranking
SATs: Chem and Math 2: 800, will take Mol Bio this year after AP class
will graduate with 10 APs (Physics 1, Econ Macro and Micro, AP BC Calc, AP Pysch, AP Stats, AP Chem, AP Bio, APUSH, AP Spanish)
Also taking multivariable calc from CTY this year
Regarding to comment made by @rk2017, I’m opting to take Honors history instead of AP Euro bc of my intense EC load -will that disadvantage me for Pitt?
Extracurricular:
MUN -president of HS club, also director of operations for middle school club
Band -principal for school, districts, state, and assistant principal for nationals
PTO Board of Directors non-voting member
USNCO qualification -will try to make top 150 this year
A main question I have is whether I should focus more on my research this year or studying for Chem Olympiad; I don’t know if I can handle both at the same time too well.
Any advice or suggestions are greatly appreciated!
Since it seems you already have done APUSH (?), what is the need to do honors european history now? One course in history should suffice. Why can’t you opt for the AP in that subject the following or senior year? Similarly what is the urgency of taking Multi variable calc this year? you don’t have any other math courses left in your school for this year?
Regarding shadowing, 80 hours is not weak, moreover you will be accumulating some more in the next couple of years.
You may want to refer to the article written by some placement professional and/or coach that I shared here in the last week or so. Try to focus on what interests you the most and enjoy it and not necessarily what you think may impress others.
Is it true that NJ schools prefer in-state and there is no point in applying if you are not in-state? Any thoughts?
Not going to lie, there’s a decent amount of truth in that statement, especially for some of the feeders.