I just started researching BS/MD programs and a lot of people seem to be mentioning “top-tier” and “second-tier” programs. Is there some sort of list someone could post on which programs are included in each term?
Also, could someone tell me the difference between “matriculation” and “attrition” rates? Thanks again for your help!!
@ana2000 Here is an example to know the distinction.
Some of the top tier programs says Applicants, Interviews, Acceptance/Offers, Matriculants, IntoMD (Attrition) 2000 100 40 25 22. Means
2000 students applied
100 invited for interviews
40 acceptance offers extended
25 students joined (matriculated) BS/MD program
22 After 3 or 4 years only 22 students matriculated in to MD program (attrition is 3 out of 25)
Top, middle, low, to give an idea and different people may differ whether a schools is top or middle or low. To get a feel
Top: NU, Brown, Rice/Baylor, CWRU, UofR, BU
Middle: RPI/AMC, Cincinnati, Hofstra, StonyBrook, xxx/NJMS
Low: NY based, OU,
If you browse these threads or google, you can get the list from different sites (but most of them not to up to date), so few programs would changed.
I feel kind of obligated to answer this since you seem to have picked the phrase “top-tier” from my earlier post. I actually used the quotes in a rather sarcastic manner, that’s why also added the final comment in parenthesis. Some folks in this forum started using terms like top, mid and low tiers starting few years ago I guess. My personal advice, don’t fall for that jargon. I believe what makes a good physician is not the school, but the individual’s value system, passion, hard work, fit to the profession and the institution, all these come ahead of the reputation of the school.
As you may know, not all med schools offer accelerated/direct/guaranteed programs. Only a subset of them do and attending any of them is good. You need to consider various factors though such as financial affordability, proximity to family (if that is a personal factor), likely fit to the institution, duration of the program, authenticity of the guaranteed claims (I have heard some of them don’t seem to be genuine guarantees as per some posts here) etc.
If I were to opine, which is again subjective based on who you ask - however based on my extensive reading and studying during the admission process of my D - of the schools offering these programs, the following med schools have made a name for themselves both nationally and internationally. So that may be one of the considerations if some one is very keen on reputation. Most of them are 8 years in duration though, so students with lot of AP credits and expecting some sort of recognition of their advanced preparation and hence reduction in their course work should consider that too as a factor and also the additional cost the 8th year brings along.
- = 7 year ** = may have restrictive admission policies with priority given to instate and regional students
The list in alphabetical order (again my personal opinion)
Alabama@Birmingham **
Baylor
Brown
Boston *
Case Western
North Western *
Pittsburgh
Rochester
WashU@St.Louis
Matriculation rate is a general term used across the board for, whether a program, college or a university, which tells the percentage of students offered admission and how many actually finally enrolled. For example say if 50 students are offered admission into a program or class and 30 actually end up joining (the other 20 deciding not to for their own reasons), then the matriculation rate = 30/50 = 60%
Attrition rate is, of the number of students who enrolled the count of who dropped out of the program for any reason such as the program being highly demanding or they changed their mind to pursue different career or didn’t like it as much as they expected or stress or financial burden, …
Taking same example above, of the 30 students who enrolled, say 2 people dropped out in a year or too, the attrition rate = 2/30 = 6.66%
Generally most of these programs have very low attrition rates like 5% or even lower. But I have also read posts that WashU and Pittsburgh programs are highly demanding in terms of the requirements students need to meet for them to continue on to the medical portion (otherwise their guarantee will be cancelled) and so it may be worth while double checking for those selected to these programs (since the whole idea of going this route is to have a stress free or reduced stress experience)
What is “NY based” Brooklyn College? Sophie Davis?
Yes.
Brooklyn College is with SUNY Downstate.
Sophie Davis is with the new CUNY School of Medicine. (very unique and avant-garde type of program)
SUNY Upstate is with a variety of undergraduate schools. (focus on rural and underprivileged students).
All the above are different, and are for NY residents only.
@greenpoison. I understand that they are for NY residents. (We are in NY and are very interested in Brooklyn). I was wondering why they would be classified as “lower tier.” Is it because the medical schools they feed into are less well respected? Is that really an issue with US medical schools?
It depends on what you wish to match into.
People classify low-tier BSMD programs in many different ways. Some do it by US News Rankings. Others due it by length or prestige of undergrad.
However, personally for me, the reason why all three of the above are considered low-tier is simply due to the fact that they are not particularly well known schools and/or because their program mission is pretty restrictive.
For example, the Sophie Davis program is meant to produce primary care physicians. Likewise, the SUNY Upstate program is designed to create primary care physicians for rural and underserved areas. On the other hand, I never heard about Brooklyn College before learning about their BSMD program.
TBH ‘tiers’ don’t matter a bit with US MD schools if you wish to pursue something relatively uncompetitive. However, if you wish to pursue something like Derm or Neurosurg, then tiering does matter.
Thanks @greenpoison! Of course, its far too soon to know for sure, but my daughter is really interested in OB/GYN or Emergancy medicine. Definately not derm. Would Downstate be fine for that? It would also be much better financially than any of the private schools.
As mentioned earlier, and my personal 2 cents, just like the Ivies these whole tier business in BS/MD is overrated and overblown, (coming from me even though D attends one of the so-called top-tiered ones).
If you haven’t already, you may want to refer to my earlier post (one of the last few) on the Official Thread for 2018 where I shared a link from usnews (the agency which I don’t like personally) mentioning how students from Osteopathic med schools matched into residencies of their choice. Agreed majority of them may be primary care focused, but nevertheless they had amazing match rates into residencies including some highly coveted fields. So it’s too early for you to start thinking if your child will be disadvantaged if she goes to one of these NY schools. She will do just fine, you are better off focusing thoughts and energies on getting into one of them first. Also Sophie Davis is not primary care focused any longer and comes under the good brand umbrella of CUNY. Good luck!
Also want to add that I believe some of the coveted areas can’t be obtained directly without finishing internal medicine first, which comes under the umbrella of Primary Care. Examples Cardiology and Gastroenterology fellowships. Same may hold true for Neuro and Cardiac surgeries, the general surgery or something similar along with experience would serve as entry points to those fields. So no point thinking too far ahead.
@rk2017 ACP (the professional organization for Internists) would NOT be very happy with your characterization that they fall under Primary Care umbrella. Primary care is a separate field although internists do provide Primary Care services. Your PCP may be an Internist.
I don’t think so, just a matter of jargon and usage interchangeably. This is from the Match day news of Robert Wood Johnson which I had shared earlier and doing again now.
“Forty-two percent of the medical students matched into primary care programs, including family medicine, internal medicine, pediatrics, and obstetrics and gynecology; 20 percent will be surgeons.”
@rk2017 It is probably fine for a layman to think so but not to professionals working in these distinct fields.
I am sure they have lot more pressing issues on their hands than to keep worrying what others may or may not think about them and the semantics 
GWU is 12/1169 this year, it’s one of the most competitive, up there even with HPME/PLME I would say.
Also, can I post WAMC on this forum or is that discouraged? @texaspg @RedMan108
Should be an interesting year. Albany Med is now requiring CASPer for all their BS/MD programs!
I missed reading your post closely from couple of weeks ago, where you mentioned OU as an example of “low-tier” program. I think your DD attends/attended the program and so you may have first hand information regarding the same. May I ask you the reason for categorizing the program as low-tier? Have you noticed any deficiencies in the program from your experience? Or is it based on the us news rankings?
As you may have known and repeating myself, I am a critic of US news ratings, especially their medical school ratings and rankings. And this whole idea of tier business. Though I myself am not in medical profession, just out of my general awareness I could notice some glaring anomalies in their rankings, some of which I will list:
- This year NYU is ranked 3rd on their research rankings, tied with Stanford. When I saw this, I was like wow! Not to downplay NYU's med school, it is a good one, but I doubt if even the students there believe such exalted opinion of their school by this agency. Very conveniently they hide previous years' ratings preventing tracking of their rating patterns.
- Good medical schools ranked way below than what they ought to be. Examples, Tufts, Michigan State and Louisville (Kentucky).
- Decent medical schools "Unranked" such as Albany, Tulane and UT Austin's Dell med schools. People may argue that these schools do not provide data to the agency preventing it from rating them. But that did not prevent Times Higher to rate UT Austin as one of the top 100 in the world this year. Whereas as many TX based schools ranked by this agency in a far better light ahead of UTA.
I am sure there are more such discrepancies. That’s why I had advised in the past that people bent on rankings to consult multiple sources instead of basing their judgments and decisions on one sole agency’s site.
@rk2017 Yes, my reference is based on US news ranking for both UG and Medical School. Agree with you any ranking is not perfect. The way I look at is for guardrail and use it in blocks, like 40 or 50. Not much going to differ within the block than looking at absolute ranking. If you are choosing a school ranked in the top 40 versus some thing ranked 160-200 may make some difference. It is up to the individual.
Both Albany, UT Galveston, Tulane are pretty good school though it is not ranked.
Interestingly people perception differs. That is why I am surprised some schools gets 2000+ applications where as OU gets around 200+ applications only. My D is very happy with OU. She got almost free ride and nothing she regrets.
Interestingly there is an article and some one posted in pre-medical forum.