Thanks @GoldenRock ! Yes, OU did seem to be a good program based on what I read some time ago, that’s why I was surprised and asked you to comment. Also University of Arizona is another eye catching entry in their (usnews) Unranked list. One can find more such anomalies looking closely. The article you posted is informative.
Many factors affect the number of applications to a given institution.
During D’s admission cycle, we eliminated Baylor and WashU from our potential application short list, considering the sheer improbability of getting in with single digit intakes. We wanted to focus on where there are realistic chances. Also WashU appeared a daunting prospect with the heavy requirements from the program’s students. Good schools like UAB or OU also don’t get many applications either because people are not familiar that much or because of the programs’ perceived emphasis on in state and regional candidates (being a state school) though they (UAB) didn’t mention it explicitly anywhere on their website. I figured it out later going through their previously selected batches. Geographical location can be another major factor.
for the new jersey medical school (njms) and albany medical college (amc) bs/md programs, i noticed that there are multiple undergrad colleges that feed into them; for njms, there are 7, and for albany, there is siena, union, and rpi. so my question is can we apply to multiple (or all) of these bs md even if they feed into the same medical school
Yes you can apply through multiple feeder schools for the same program, though students usually limit to 2 or 3. If you follow the latest official results thread for the 2018 cycle, I believe we have had students applying and selected to both these programs through multiple feeder schools each and finally deciding to go with one of them. I believe the interviews with feeder schools can be multiple but with the program only once.
Lately someone mentioned here on the forum that Albany is changing the policies, so they may not allow it any longer. You may want to check further on that.
I was going through the comments section of the article posted by @GoldenRock earlier and found the comments of a long-seated medical school dean interesting. A brief extract of his comments below:
“At a recent Council of Deans meeting, 81 of the 82 Deans present voted in opposition to the ranking. However, if the US News ranking were to disappear, it is likely that some other entity would create a ranking – given that there is money to be made on publishing this ranking. The answer, as Kellerman and Rice note, is for the AAMC to strengthen the MSAR”
My understanding of the rankings is that they are specific to catagory. So NYU may be the current number 3 for “research,” But does that mean anything to the student who is not primarily research focused? For many, the primary care rankings may mean more.
I think any med school can fulfill your D’s desire to be an OB/GYN or EM, Downstate included. Primary Care include many categories, not limited to FM or IM, it also include OB/GYN, EM and others. OTOH, IM could further break down to some specialized subcategories that is out of the primary care.
How do we find the opening date of bs/md applications? Do we need to call the school directly? I have found all the deadlines but it doesn’t seem to say when we can start to apply.
For comparison, following are the rankings of the U.S. medical institutions that came up for comparison earlier, by other ratings outfits which seem to be more credible and close to reality.
Times Higher, By Research (one of the 4 broad criteria, with sub categories in each):
Stanford (U.S: 2, Overall in US: 2, World:7, World Overall:4)
NYU (U.S:23, Overall in US: 20, World:61, World Overall:39)
QS World, By High Index Citations:
Stanford ( US:8, Overall in US: 2, World:11, World Overall: 4)
NYU (US:21, Overall in US:16, World:33, World Overall:33)
Neither of these sites have Primary care categorization, but a consolidated ranking.
Besides, can’t but wonder what does Stanford do so badly in Primary care areas that it gets a us news ranking of 32 among US institutions, tied with 5 other. Very puzzling and questionable rankings!
I just got my ap scores back and i didn’t do as well as I thought on my bio and chem one (which is 2 out of the 3 i took this year). Does anyone know if you have to put the ap scores on the application when you apply? or is it just something to send later to your college after you’ve committed to one? Bc i know a lot of bsmd applicants have rlly great scores but like mines not so great and i don’t want that to hurt my chances of possibly even being considered.
I have the same question. I scored 3 on both AP Chem and AP Calc BC and 4 on AP Calc AB( sub score). Should i report my scores on common app/ bs-md specific apps? Please suggest.
Don’t they ask the AP scores on the Common App or Universal app anyways? What to say, it is like a double-edged sword. If you don’t mention the scores on the apps, they know from your school transcript that you took the AP courses but did not report the test scores (unless your school follows IB curriculum or something else where it won’t reflect or you self studied for the test, which is unlikely though in a science subject). That will let them conclude that either you didn’t do well on the tests or did not take them at all. If you report on the other hand, they will see what you got. If this is in your sophomore year that you took these tests in, perhaps you can give them another shot in junior year to improve the scores?
How much impact it can have on your candidacy depends on where you apply. Right or wrong, programs like NW and BU use these standardized scores to gauge the rigor of the student in the subjects, since the school grades on transcript can vary widely between easy going and tough grading schools/teachers. Hope you had good scores in the SAT subject tests which can to some extent mitigate the effect. Other programs may or may not attach that much importance to AP scores. An acquaintance of mine got a 3 in AP chem and still got interviewed at a decent BS/MD program, though wasn’t eventually selected.
Interesting and very useful insight from all of you. I have also been pondering this and will share my thoughts as a physician/parent who has worked in academia, private practice and pharma. My oldest daughter is in her senior year and I am having a wonderful time helping her selecting a college.
I am a specialist physician and have spent my life teaching in 4 different medical schools, teaching medical students/residents/fellows. Going through medical school and the training that follows is a cherishable experience and you grow up as a person and a doctor during this process. Every one of these interactions will mold you and your inner self into the complete package that you become and you have the privilige of touching the lives and being a part of thousands of people and helping them.
My own 2 cents about the BSMD program after several months of pondering…
I completely agree with you about ranking the schools into top tier, middle tier and lower tier. The quality of education, personal interaction, patient experience, research opportunities, focus of interest and priorities completely differ between these programs. There is a HUGE difference in the quality of education between medical schools ranked 1-20 versus medical schools ranked 80-100. Not much difference between a medical school ranked 1 versus 10 or 20. In addition the undergraduate experience you get for the first 3-4 years at some of the lower tier programs tends to be in less prestigious schools which may make it quite boring and unappealing for these high aptitude students. It is quite striking when I went through some of the postings for the year 2018 cycle that these children who matched into the lower tier programs also got into extremely competitive and outstanding undergraduate programs which they did not accept. This dream of pursuing medical school training at a lower tier program may really not be the right choice for a lot of these kids. These are kids who have the potential to be outstanding researchers, leaders in their field and have an opportunity to change the lives of people they have never met. This requires training at the best level both during their undergraduate years and then through medical school. When they short sell themselves, it might be regrettable later. As a middle aged physician, I have met several physicians who are burnt out with the practice of medicine and dont really enjoy it. Having a solid training, exploring all the options before you decide your field of specialization and eventual place of work definitely helps circumvent some of the burnouts. I honestly believe that making a decision to accept a lower tier combined BSMD program or a BSDO (osteopathic school) program in lieu of a top tier undergraduate school should be made after a lot of contemplation/trepidation and not lightly just because you want to be in medical school.
If we refer back to the 2018 thread, even among physicians like yourself, there have been different opinions on the relevance of medical school reputation and tiers. But I think a majority felt it as not all that important. I am not a physician and expressed my views earlier that, the qualities that makes one a good physician are one’s own value system, passion for the field, hard work and how well they can make use of the opportunities available to them (even at these ordinary medical schools if you will) ahead of the school one ends up studying in.
I have personally known few students having attended so-called normal medical schools but matching into top of the world residencies like Harvard, UPenn and Yale. Besides, don’t all these direct med programs more or less assess the students’ inherent qualities, fit for the profession and the above mentioned factors irrespective of their tier status? So why should the students at say a low-tier school (though I don’t like using that phrase) get burnt out later in career compared to some one else attending a fancier school. If it can happen, it will happen to anyone irrespective. Murphy’s Law.
I have shared earlier in this thread few days ago, the quote from a long seated dean of a top medical school where he mentioned how 81 of the 82 medical school deans at some conference voted against the ranking system (with particular reference to U.S.News), or indirectly the tier system being referred to here. They all felt that perception is being counter productive and as a disservice, especially since all the medical schools in the country have to undergo and measure up to strict quality control measures such as accreditation. A good number of these deans must be from the top medical schools of this country and world. Don’t you think they wouldn’t have voted so overwhelmingly one sided if they had observed in their vast experiences that school determines the physician quality or their contribution to the world?
Its all well and good to talk about the benefit of going to an elite college over a “lower tier” BSMD program, but with med school acceptance rates at such pitifully low numbers, I think that is a very difficult decision for the kid who has dreamed of being a doctor for years.
I should have also addressed the undegrad portion of these programs. As I mentioned earlier and to repeat myself, yes, the initial 3 years for these high achieving kids can prove detrimental in their medical school years if they aren’t careful. If they find themselves way ahead of the rest of the student body, it can lead them to a sense of complacency and slacking off. This will be bad when they have to compete with their med school class mates coming from the traditional route who worked their … off to get in.
But it also depends on the school and the program. Some of these programs have special course work only for these select group of students where they compete with each other exclusively. And some schools are tough, regardless of the program that the kids have to work hard irrespective of the selectivity of their own program. Just to give some example, in D’s program they had a dedicated course work in Physics only for the 25 or so kids in the program and taught by a Stanford graduated Prof who made them sweat. The other classes where they mingle with the general student body are not easy either, with top scores in some of the tests/courses being in the 70s range (C range in traditional sense)
Majority of medical school graduates will enter into private practice or be employed by a community hospital and I dont think there is a difference in quality of practice or personal satisfaction based on their medical school of graduation. If that is the only ambition and desire, then going to any program would be ok.
The concern that I raised is that these extremely smart high school kids may be short selling themselves by going to a low rated undergraduate programs/medical school and miss an opportunity to be academic giants, research thought leaders and physicians/surgeons destined to change the way we live as a society.
Main issues are as follows:
These are highly qualified kids who get into the combined BSMD programs (all their CV and stats looks much better than mine at their age). They will easily get accepted into an elite undergraduate program and have a high chance of getting into a medical school after graduation (85%+). The amount of intellectual curiosity, inspiring mentoring, research opportunity exposure that they gain in the 4 years of undergrad at a national research university can be extremely helpful in steering them to be leaders in their fields.
The medical training received at most Allopathic Medical Schools is not that distinct from each other. The research opportunities, opportunity to write high caliber medical articles and work with thought leaders though is starkly different based on your medical school of training. If applying to primary care residencies it does not make much difference where you graduated from. Medical school caliber does play a role when applying for highly competitive residency fields (radiation oncology, opthalmology, neurosurgery, orthopedics etc) which have extremely limited slots , and also important to get into highly competitive residency programs (mayo clinic, harvard, JHU etc. ). There are always exceptions to the rule, and physicians who have graduated from smaller programs with the right opportunity can get into these programs , but that is not the norm.