Thread for BSMD Applicants 2019

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
3987

@NJDad00 There is no free ride. Even for BS/MD programs, there are certain requirements need to be met before matriculating for MD. But BS/MD program student may have some breathing space compared to regular route. There are so many variations in BS/MD programs and hence the breathing space quantity will differ. Some no MCAT, some lenient GPA, some not intense volunteering during UG, some binding, some no dual degree etc.,

Read the post from the recent Union/AMC student, who slipped on GPA and how he recovered and his insight. In general it gives a safety net at the cost of not so called Top20 medical schools. But if someone keen and wants to do only in Harvard or Stanford, no one stops you, go for the regular route and report us back in 4 years. GL.

3988

@grtd2010 – I totally agree with what you are saying! I was just trying to understand, if I in fact understood what @OldSchoolMD was saying, how BS/MD was advantageous as compared to traditional route if a student were to run into academic difficulty, given that all of these programs seem to have some pretty high standards that have to be met in order to advance to the MD part of the program.

I’m sure a big advantage of the BS/MD programs is that, assuming you do well academically, they eliminate the possibility of just randomly being denied admission to medical school because of bad interviews, bad choices of where to apply (either shooting too high or too low, and being denied admission due to yield protection), less than spectacular ECs, ORM, etc., as sometimes happens regular route.

However, I’m equally sure that BS/MD does not provide a safety net if a kid stumbles academically while in the program, whether due to losing focus, having a health or family issue, just being poorly prepared for the level and intensity of work involved, etc., so I was wondering why @OldSchoolMD was seeming to say that, or if I was misunderstanding what was being said.

By the way, for what it’s worth, I’m sure the success rate of these programs, on average, is far less than 100%, while probably greater than 40%, with the irony being, the easier they are to get into (which undoubtedly would bring great joy to many folks in this forum), the lower their success rate. Programs like Brown and NU probably have much higher success rates than the programs that are easier to get interviews at, and then to be admitted into. Then again, if the only program you get admitted into happens to be one with a lower success rate, the lower success rate is not a reason in itself not to attend, although it’s probably better to go in with your eyes wide open so there are no big surprises later.

3989

@NJDad00 I agree with everything GoldenRock has said. The Union/LIM program for example, requires a 3.5 GPA and no MCAT. That isn’t necessarily a breeze, but its a lot more breathing room than going the regular route. Even the schools where MCAT is required, the cutoff is generally lower then what you would need to garauntee you a spot applying from the regular pool.

Finally, and this is just personal opinion, I think part of the problem is that many of the kids who are considering these programs, tend to choose the most prestigious and most difficult undergraduate schools if they don’t get into BSMD or choose not to attend. In otherwords, kids are choosing between undergrad at Drexel or Temple with a BSMD program vs. Princeton, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, etc. I think Drexel and Temple and all the other BSMD schools are fine places, but generally the competition is going to be harder at the elite schools these kids gravitate too. That makes their undergraduate experience and chances at med school that much harder.

3990

Wow! So much activities and valuable information shared within past couple days!
As I see these discussions about matriculation and attrition, it reminds of my DS’s ex-GF from my county votech school who attended HPME interview this week. The small group of votech students are prone for copying to ace the tests and make her dad happy :frowning: She is one among few valedictorians from that school.
How would such kids manage a rigorous BSMD program like HPME or NJMS for that matter?? May be once they are in the program, they are IN for good and no weed out?? May be these ‘smart’ kids DO matriculate and hence no official report released!

3991

@gallentjill – and I agree with everything you are saying, except I’m not sure that what you describe as a problem is really a problem. The whole point of these programs is to draw highly motivated, high stat kids away from the Ivies by preying on their aversion to risk by dangling a conditional guarantee. It works for some kids and not for others. The irony is that these programs are so difficult to get into that pretty much anyone who is good enough to be admitted is also good enough to go the med school via the regular route.

I hear what you are saying about the Ivies being full of equally talented kids, but most of them did not get accepted to BS/MD programs. It’s true that kids going regular route have pressure with no guarantee, but it’s also true that kids who relax too much in the BS/MD programs tend to be the ones who don’t succeed, so I really think in the end it’s six of one and a half dozen of the other.

The kids who stay focused in the BS/MD programs have the guarantee and become doctors. The kids who stay focused in the prestigious UG programs go to med school regular route and become doctors. I am pretty sure that the med school acceptance rate from the top UG programs is well above the national 40%, just like in the BS/MD programs, and I really don’t think it is “harder” for kids who are accepted to Drexel or Temple BS/MD programs but choose instead to go to Columbia or Penn UG to become doctors. It just depends ultimately on what kind of UG experience they want (a regular Ivy League UG experience is very different from the UG expereince in a BS/MD program at a place like Union or Drexel), and what their tolerance for uncertainty is until they get their med school acceptance in 4 years as opposed to a conditional acceptance now, that is tied to a specific med school that probably would not be a first choice otherwise.

In the end, it is worth keeping in mind that, with a few exceptions like Brown and Northwestern, these programs are designed solely to attract high stat kids to undergraduate and medical schools that they would not otherwise choose, by offering a guarantee that more highly ranked programs simply do not need to offer to attract the same caliber of student. The offer is very attractive to some, and less so to others. There is really no right and wrong answer here, kind of like their is no empirical evidence to prove that vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate. :slight_smile:

The guarantee is attractive enough that these programs are attracting record numbers of applicants every year, and yet it is not so compelling that Harvard and NYU, or any of the other “top” schools, feel the need to enter the fray in order to effectively compete for the best and the brightest, either for their undergraduate programs or for their medical schools!

3992

@NJDad00 well put
 as you said there is no right or wrong path
 good luck to everyone

3993

@sajju786 regarding your previous post about residency/fellowship being the one that matters - does the quality of the med school affect your residency match?

3994

All the stats about traditional medical school admission are already posted online- give or take, 80% of premeds drop out of the premed track before the end of their 4 years. Obviously, some of them drop due to family or personal reasons. However, I would say a majority of them just don’t end up making the academic cut- at some point, you just have to cut your losses and run.

Furthermore, out of these 20% of premeds who do manage to make it into med school, 80% of them have to take at least one gap year which wastes some of the prime moments of their youth.

So give or take, out of all the students who started as premed, only 20%*20% or 4% of them manage to finish in 4 years and get into a USMD School.

No offense, but that rate is atrocious- I don’t care how smart any Ivy League student or high school valedictorian is, but I wouldn’t count on even them to finish in that lucky 4%.

Compare that to BSMD programs- even the worst program that I know of only loses 40% of students during the undergraduate years~ that’s almost 15 times higher than that of the traditional route.

And that’s not even talking about the best programs- a lot of these top programs, especially at grade inflating schools like Brown or easy schools like Baylor, rarely lose or drop even a single kid.

3995

Many of us tend to make significant assumptions, extrapolations and generalizations which may not be right because the sample we use based on personal situation or from few known friends/families. There is no shoe fits all.
But each kid is so unique and precious and may have unique strengths and approaches and may take different routes.
So let us provide the guidance and support and let them be the drivers.

In summary if the student is absolutely clear about medicine career (not due to parents desire/pressure) there is nothing wrong in taking BS/MD route nor in taking the regular route by going to an ordinary university and/or state schools (and forgo the so called ‘experience’ of ranked schools). It is natural for a student at age 18, to know for sure, medicine is the choice is unrealistic even if they have done enough volunteering and/or shadowing and feeling I love biology!

Here are some myths.

  1. Doing UG in top schools will result in great MCAT scores. The course contents are foundation and it is covered in any college courses. Students score well based on their MCAT preparation and practice.
  2. All the so called numbers (40% of top schools get in to Medical school) published by any school are traps. Read the fine prints. Is it every student who enrolled in pre-med office or after multiple filters? Also does it reflect a particular year, no, most of the time it is whenever they graduated in to MD (gap years).
  3. Having 520+ mcat and 3.9 gpa is a guarantee for a MD seat. (for the BS/MD students these 2 factors are the least to worry about it. Read one of my previous posts few weeks back). There are so many factors result in MD admission.
    (Even an adcomm of one school can NOT predict the outcome of another school)
  4. Doing UG at a school which had medical college increases the chance for MD admission.
  5. If you are good enough to get in to BS/MD, you are good enough to get in to MD in regular route.(variety of factors different when they move out from home)

Schools do not prepare a student for MD admission. Students prepare themselves for an admission. It needs a clear plan, focused execution and to some minimal extent luck or whatever you want to call (for example, identifying the list of schools to apply, is speculative guess though we think we understood how the admission process works in a school, by studied all the ‘big data’ and applied algorithms to filter out yield, IS/OS blah blah
 OR interview, who is going to interview and how the discussion topic evolves - you have no control ).

On different note, this is what most folks involved in admission or practicing physicians have to say.

  1. Medical education is reasonably standard in US unlike any other areas. (Doing a full time MBA or Law at Stanford versus UC East Bay do make a difference. Even if course content is same, the opportunities it results may differ. Because perception is reality!)
  2. For a good career start, the residency school may have a little weight than UG or MD school.
    (Not every C title executives of every company is from Ivy’s or top 25 schools). A successful career results in what you do for 30+ years after your initial 8-10 years of education.

What is more important is not the experience of Corolla or BMW to go from Point A to B, rather, did you reach, with out any crash (potential future customers to treat them!) or derailed and landed in point C (public is lucky you have decided not to become a Doc!)

Also there is no data (rather it is useless data even if it exists) on the success matriculation rate of BS/MD students. Most of the programs are few seats, just 5 to 15, with few exceptions. Most of the time either student opted out or forced out is not uncommon. Even if 1 student out of the 5 in a year did not matriculate it is 20% failed, which is skewed data. All BS/MD seats are < 5% of total seats for MD.

There are so many examples. In this cycle, there is a student with 526 and 3.96 and TX resident, has not an admission in TX (and got few schools including Chicago). Another CA student with 520 and 3.92 did not get a single interview in CA. There are 2 sisters, 1 from UPenn with old MCAT 39 and 3.9x GPA did not get MD admission and went for a job and never came back. Her sister went to MIT and got UCSF and Stanford. Why, for some there are obvious reasons but for some it is hard to know.

Regular route will have more competition. Not just applicant counts. But the variety it brings, especially non-trad students. Wonderful to see their tenacity and the hardship they have gone and attracts the admission. The gap year students what they bring on board.

At the end, still if a student is determined, success will result in regular route also. There is no one sure path for success.

3996

@JJ2019 Again, the quality of MD school for residency match is very minimal. (the theory is there is a possibility that your LOR of MD school may have studied / collaborated in some research in residency school). Still students need to do well in pre-clinical courses and top notch step scores and what specialty they are seeking are the keys. There is no need to have the same number of dermatologists as general practitioners!

3997

@NJDad00 -

“You say that certain situations could derail a student’s path by affecting GPA, seemingly to support a decision to go BS/MD instead of traditional route. But while BS/MD has the virtue of a guaranteed seat in med school, isn’t the program at least as intense as the regular route, and aren’t there GPA metrics that have to be met to proceed to the guaranteed med school seat? If so, how does BS/MD inoculate against situations that could adversely impact GPA???”

  • 'guaranteed seat' simply means if you meet their requirements (e.g. GPA, MCAT if applicable, interview if applicable, etc.). nothing is truly guaranteed. it is more conditional or provisional. HOWEVER, the bar is set lower (usually, but not always - see WUSTL) - the expected GPA/MCAT/EC/volunteer services/research are often if not always lower for BS-MD students than those who are applying via the traditional route. it is this 'safety net' or 'breathing room' that @GoldenRock mentions that i am referring to. usually applying via traditional route, one is expected to have a GPA>3.7 and MCAT >~90% to begin with even before considering all the other stuff (EC, volunteer, research, leadership positions, etc.). in most BS-MD programs, these GPA requirements are usually lower (not always - see WUSTL, UPitt), ~GPA >3.2-3.63; MCAT's are either not required, taken as a formality, or required but lower expectations (e.g. >80%); research/EC/volunteer activities are either not required, encouraged, or required but at lesser level than one who is applying to the medical school from the outside (traditional route). while getting derailed is certainly possible (i didn't mean to imply that it was guaranteed or no risk at all), getting a lower than expected grade, a lower than expected MCAT score, not being able to be as involved in EC/research/volunteer activities because of physical/psychological/emotional issues makes it more possible to recover with the lower bench marks in most BS-MD programs.
3998

@NJDad00 -

“how BS/MD was advantageous as compared to traditional route if a student were to run into academic difficulty, given that all of these programs seem to have some pretty high standards that have to be met in order to advance to the MD part of the program.”

  • yes, most BS/MD programs have pretty high standards expected from its students in order to matriculate into medical school. however, the standards expected from those applying from the outside (the traditional route) are almost always higher.

“However, I’m equally sure that BS/MD does not provide a safety net if a kid stumbles academically while in the program, whether due to losing focus, having a health or family issue, just being poorly prepared for the level and intensity of work involved, etc., so I was wondering why @OldSchoolMD was seeming to say that, or if I was misunderstanding what was being said.”

  • i hope my previous comments above clarifies this. the safety net while present and most think is significant/helpful is by NO means absolute.
  • "I'm sure the success rate of these programs, on average, is far less than 100%, while probably greater than 40%, with the irony being, the easier they are to get into (which undoubtedly would bring great joy to many folks in this forum), the lower their success rate."
  • i agree. it's not 100% and i do believe it's significantly >40% (often quoted as the national average). and this is the main attraction for such programs - increasing the likelihood of attaining a medical school seat while hoping to be not as stressed compared to if going the traditional route (lower target goals - see above). however, i also do believe that a lot of the top 50 colleges quote med school acceptance rates of their student to be 60-90%. however, as i'm sure we've all read here or heard elsewhere, these statistics are often not as simple as they appear.

“The irony is that these programs are so difficult to get into that pretty much anyone who is good enough to be admitted is also good enough to go the med school via the regular route.”

  • i agree 100% with you. if these students continue to do what they were doing in high school to the same extent and at the same level in college, they will almost certainly get accepted into a medical school. however, there is a concern that has been mentioned previously that these special students (and they are very special indeed) are at risk of burning out either during college, medical school, residency, and/of fellowship. so the opportunity to have a 'safety net' (not a guarantee) may allow one to have a more enjoyable/less stress undergraduate experience compared to the steriotypical pre-med student who is worried from everything from grade deflation, what classes to take, studying for the MCATs, fitting into one's already busy and stressful schedule EC/Volunteer/research to help get a resume of a medical school application, going through the AMCAS application, going on interviews, the expense with the applications/interviews, etc. again, yes, many of those still need to be done in most BS-MD programs, but the thresholds or goals of each are not as high. i'm not saying there is no stress, but rather less stress. this usually means they may get to enjoy their undergraduate experience more in the right setting (accelerated programs can nullify this benefits and is probably why i chose not to do the 6-year BS-MD program at RPI-AMC years ago).

" it’s also true that kids who relax too much in the BS/MD programs tend to be the ones who don’t succeed, so I really think in the end it’s six of one and a half dozen of the other."

  • while this is certainly true, i would think that these same individuals would have behaved the same in a traditional undergraduate college curriculum as well. for a great majority of those accepted to a BS-MD program, most if not all of them got there because of their self motivation and desire to be the best at what they do. they are competitive by nature. when i was in college taking classes side by side with BS-MD students, even though all they needed was a 3.5 GPA, they often chased every last point on a test and it didn't matter if their GPA was already a 3.8, 3.9, or even 4.0. that's not easy to turn off. it's what got them to where they are and they'll often be just as motivated to be as successful as they can be, not just meeting the minimums targets. again, the advantage is that if there is a potential derailment (usually not directly academic in nature), the BS-MD programs allows for a greater margin of error as i described above.

“a regular Ivy League UG experience is very different from the UG expereince in a BS/MD program at a place like Union or Drexel”

  • i would say it depends on the undergraduate college in general. as mentioned previously, there are certain top undergraduate colleges where the undergraduate experience may not be as great as one would think, particularly for pre-med students, mainly due grade deflation and competition with a larger number of quality of students (since that's whose attending those schools).

“these programs are designed solely to attract high stat kids to undergraduate and medical schools that they would not otherwise choose, by offering a guarantee that more highly ranked programs simply do not need to offer to attract the same caliber of student
 The guarantee is attractive enough that these programs are attracting record numbers of applicants every year, and yet it is not so compelling that Harvard and NYU, or any of the other “top” schools, feel the need to enter the fray in order to effectively compete for the best and the brightest, either for their undergraduate programs or for their medical schools!”

  • i absolutely agree. it's a give and take. nothing comes for free. these colleges are offering these BS-MD programs for an opportunity to capture outstanding high quality students four years earlier because they know that these special students are unlikely to be available to them in 4 years. traditional top programs don't offer these BS-MD programs because they don't have to. for top programs (e.g. harvard, johns hopkins, yale, etc.), why would they take a risk on investing in a student out of high school instead of simply waiting four years and get one whose maturity is less questioned and whose body is work is more substantial? for them, there is little reason to. thus, we don't see many of those top schools offering such programs.

again, my apologies for the long comment. it’s something that’s been discussed a lot in my mind, with my wife, with colleagues, family, friends, and my DS. at the beginning of this application cycle ironically, my DS may have been leaning towards the traditional route. however, while this is still certainly a possibility, i believe after going through the interview process so far and meeting his fellow interviewees and noticing how impressive they are, he has opened his mind to this route. we’ll just have to wait and see (and yes, when all is said and done, we’ll post on the results thread).

3999

@GreenPoison - is it true that off those that make it into med school, 80% had taken at least one gap year? seems pretty high. why do you think this may be the case? i thought students with less than ideal GPA and/or MCAT scores was a common reasons why a student (or his/her school’s admission committee) may decide to take a gap year or two.

4000

@OldSchoolMD typically I’ve heard that students use the gap year to gather more experience with medicine, whether it’s traveling abroad to help at medical camps or scribing, but also to study for the MCAT

4001

@NJDad00, @OldSchoolMD,

I can’t talk for all BS/MD programs, but will about the one I am most familiar with. It is accelerated (7 year) and so rigorous. Also the undergrad school is known for tough grading (though I refrain from equating with some of the aforementioned schools in my earlier posts). It is not uncommon for the bright kids chosen to the program to get a C in the physics courses in the 1st year there (taught exclusively to this small group, relative grading and taught and graded by a Stanford alumnus). Same can be said about Chemistry too in 1st year and Orgo in 2nd, though taught along with other premed students (who by the way tend to be highly competitive and motivated, so not fair to assume the kids from this program will breeze through).

However students from this program tend to recover from any such set backs and 95% from the program make it to med school. They are not required to carry out research, ECs, all the stuff a traditional premed student is expected to go through (though D is planning on engaging in research despite not required).

4002

@NJDad00

This is it exactly. Everything is a trade off.There are kids who truly thrive best in a competitive environment filled with high stat kids like them who can push them. There are kids who have been dreaming about attending a top ranked undergrad program for years. Those kids might be much better served skipping the BSMD and going the traditional route. Not all high stat kids are like this. There are plenty of kids who want a different experience, who would be perfectly happy at Drexel, Temple, Union, etc. For them, its not a loss to accept a BSMD program. There is no correct answer, only personal preference.

4003

@GoldenRock

Myth:
“1. Doing UG in top schools will result in great MCAT scores. The course contents are foundation and it is covered in any college courses. Students score well based on their MCAT preparation and practice.”

I am particularly concerned about this aspect when choosing BS/MD or UG school itself to get prepared for MCAT and future tests.

My D goes to a very rigorous high school with top 5% of all middle school kids from different counties. Even though material is same like other high schools, they are pushed harder with deeper content, work and tests. This results in lower GPAs but almost everyone in this school makes 4/5 in AP tests, 700+ in SAT subject tests, 1500+ in SAT., 33+ in ACT.

My dilemma is that could happen same with rigorous colleges too. Students may suffer slightly with GPAs but get higher MCATs and also prepared for future tests that determine their residency etc. Unlike UG college admissions which do not consider test scores similar to MCAT for med schools, it may matter to be a in a UG school that prepares students well for MCAT?

4004

@DSOF20192023 Honestly, that is a hotly debated topic on these boards. There are many threads on whether or not it pays to go to a top elite undergrad if you are looking for premed. People come down on both sides. With regard to MCAT prep though, what I have heard most is that it doesn’t matter because college classes don’t really prepare you for the MCAT anyway. You do that yourself through prep classes and self study. I will also say that many far less prestigious schools have excellent reputations for getting their kids into Med school. Again, it comes down to personal preference. Would your child do better in a highly competitive environment where everyone is as smart or smarter or would they do best as a big fish in a smaller pond. Neither is “correct” but you have to know your child.

4005

@DSOF20192023 Agree, some students thrive in a competitive environment and some dislike that situation. So if your D excels under pressure, go for it.

But in general my point going to a top 25 schools will not facilitate super MCAT scores. It all depends on the preparation and the practice the student undertakes. I admit I am not a science geek nor looked at what is being taught in pre-med classes or MCAT test content.

But made the statement based on 2 reasons.

  1. Many knowledgeable persons in CC Pre-Med threads have repeatedly posted MCAT needs its own preparation more than what is taught in the pre-med courses. Getting used to grueling 7 hours test needs practice and patience (beyond science knowledge)
  2. Just my observation of my own D (of course stat=1 should not be used for conclusion). She is doing her UG in a lowly 110th ranked public school. She never likes hyper environment or any competition or any paid prep service etc. She took 5 practice exams during spring break and took MCAT and did very well.

So it depends on the individual and the preparation more than what the school can do. It is risky to excel in one (MCAT) and get in to a hole in another (GPA). MD Admission need a balanced profile in every critical aspects and MCAT & GPA are 2 of the 10+ factors.

4006

As @GoldenRock stated

This is one of reason that student want to have strong foundation in UG and still passionate about healthcare.We come across so many kids in BS/MD programs who has one physician parent and are well prepared for BS/MD admission (don’t mean to downplay kids potential at all).

I have been advised on multiple occasions against planning, but it is a hard pill for me to swallow. I can’t comprehend how one can succeed w/o planning with so many variables and categories requires to perform. For traditional route, my take as a parent is to have a 4 year academic planning for UG, I called it skeleton, fill in various EC activities, i called it meat. Part of this exercise, one may realize schedule conflict among various activities and academic load (e.g. most students warned about Orgo Chem, then you may want a lighter load of ECs while taking Orgo). So planning is in a sense of creating more balancing act, not hardcore planning, not forcing kids to do activities as parents choice. Ofc, as route is so uncertain and bumpy, interest may developed/changed along the way, be prepare for adjustment in planning and position yourself as best possible way for medical school admission. As of writing this, some of the conflicts we are facing are, physician shadow is only available in certain time frame, while volunteering is pretty much anytime of year. Hopefully doing planning one can avoid a need for Gap year.