To get competitive residency programs you need to maintain academic vigor, good research and volunteering in medical school and get good USMLE scores unless your goal is do primary care residency and open your own shop on main street, Springfield. So if kids only target to meet the minimum requirements of the BSMD program, they may be disadvantaged in medical school. I know lot of kids are doing great in BSMD programs but latest trend is taking gap year in medical school to become competitive for residency (both traditional and BSMD students). I heard 2 BSMD students taking a gap year recently to strengthen their applications for residency.
So catching bird once may not be enough for everyone, you need at least one or two more birds
I don’t know if it’s a norm or not but among friends of my children, Indian parents are notorious when it comes to forcing children into medical field in general and towards public BS-MD programs in particular. It’s a running joke in their school. Those kids have no prayer. Their parents select everything from courses, extracurriculars, do their projects, hook them up with Indian doctors for internships etc to make it happen.
Risk aversion was certainly part of the equation for my D. Personally, I don’t think that is a negative.
A second part is the ability to branch out a bit in UG by having some of the requirements relaxed – The summer she would have spent studying for the MCAT is a summer she can spend doing something more interesting. She will certainly still do research and community service during UG but more of it will be directed by what she cares about without having to tick every box. She will be able to go abroad for a semester. And there is a certain degree of stress relief in targeting a 3.5 average vs. 3.8. To be honest, I don’t think she will let her grades slip because of this. If anything, I think she will actually do better because of lower anxiety. You need to know your kid.
@srk2017 I understand what you are saying about the competitiveness of residencies, but I also want to point out that the match lists from all the BSMD schools seem to fine. They have similar outcomes to higher ranked schools. If someone is set on academic medicine or one of the most competitive residencies (radiation oncology?) that might be an issue. But for everything else, these schools produce plenty of matches with competitive residencies.
I also think its a bit of an exaggeration to say that coming from a regular primary care residency will doom you to opening your own shop in a small town on main street. In the NY suburb where we live, plenty of young doctors from less prestigious schools and from DO schools join large practice groups all the time.
Also, I have never heard of taking a gap year during medical school. Is this new? Does this happen after graduation? What are they doing during that year?
right around the corner, let me summarize what students who have admissions on hands
Missed anything?
[/QUOTE]
Add the following to the list of considerations, which I forgot. Would be applicable to some, if not all
Having to do Ironman triathlon instead of plain marathon. Potential burnout during med school and not being able to perform well after growing through the aforementioned grind just to get oneself into med school.
I have known very brilliant people getting into likes of Columbia med school and having have to settle for family medicine and such … (Not out of own choice)
@gallentjill - Looks like you misunderstood my statement about primary care. My point is if the goal is to become a primary care physician and start your own practice medical school or residency program name doesn’t matter.
as per residency match list from schools with BSMD programs, we don’t have breakdown between those who came thru BSMD vs traditional path.
during gap year in medical school, students do either research or get more experience in the speciality they are targeting for. they probably take after 3rd year of medical school. I heard one took gap year medical school.
@srk2017 I may have misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that you will be limited to starting your own practice and not able to join one of the larger groups. I have personally not seen this to be the case.
Why would the breakdown matter between BSMD and traditional? Are you thinking that the BSMD kids might be less prepared for med school because of less rigor in UG?
I have left money part, since it is very subjective and individual / family decision and doesn’t fit the tab of general considerations like the ones listed above.
I have come across all possible combinations with money as the main factor. People at one end of that spectrum may not agree, and even think stupid, the decisions of those at the other end. And vice versa.
Neither disagree or disrespect any ones post. Not saying my posts are right or others should agree.
There are 2 key discussion points stirring so much posts. As mentioned, we tend to look at some outliers (including myself in this very post below) which may not be applicable for the majority of the situation.
BD/MD route vs Regular route: More to do with individual student / family decision than any other factors. There is nothing wrong or right.
True, Asian culture (due to historical reasons and the path parents gone thru 30-50 years back) tend to influence more on students. For some it would have benefited and in few cases, it backfired and created family divide itself.
For example in @srk2017 case, what his S and family did is right. It is a personal decision, he thrives on challenges and ready to face and overcome if any obstacles happens. I am sure, he will exceed any bar. For all you know he may even get BU again and may not join and in that process, will be happy to know he saved $200k in UG fees.
At the same time, in my D case, she opted not to join same Vandy & Rice (of course did not get any aid) and took the lowest tier (per BS/MD focus) and she was happiest 3 years back and till today. Because it is her style. In general, she never showed any interest to compete / challenge herself nor enjoys stress. We supported whatever decisions she took it and was stress free and did what ever courses she wanted (still she took MCAT and went thru MD application process).
A friend's son who did his Ph.D (7 year integrated Pharmacy program) was so upset (because that was his parents decision) and went and joined Caribbean MD school last Jan because he wanted to be a Doc. Broken family on extreme influence of parents.
MD school ranking / Residency match:
At 18, when not even sure what it means medicine career and the pros and cons of that plays in life (not just professional, even on personal life) for next 50+ years, it is so hard to visualize/ expect students will / should have an idea about residency now and choose BS/MD program according to the MD school ranking.
It is going to evolve based on clinical years and the maturity they gain even though it is just another 3-5 years only.
Again it depends on the trade off and acceptance of choices a person going to make. For example, sure all the Top20, we assume will get you any residency. But a student may be realistic and accept to join MD school in T30-60 and try the best. At the worst case, may take a year off and strengthen (whether MD admission or residency match).
My friend son who did BS BioMedical Engineering UCSD, and did MD at UCSD (no gap years between BS & MD), took 1 year before starting residency. Because he was particular about a specialty and did not get in the first try. Or his GF and he did not get into same place for residency. They got married during the gap year, and finally he took ENT at Temple and his wife also doing residency there.
Another friend who went in BS/MD route (LeHigh and Drexel), did his first 3years Peds at Baylor and this year got his Cardiology at Baylor and plans all the way to Fellowship at Baylor.
Drexel got whatever residency he wants and UCSD took some time. Both are brilliant students and know what they have in hand and accepted whatever came.
No one can predict every outcome of what is going to happen in life, but need to develop experience to face the unexpected and charter new path to reach their ultimate destination. If there is a will, there is a way.
Best, whatever the decision, don’t regret (that will do more damage), move forward and enjoy the life. You can not get back time.
I agree that the relatively stress free environment of a direct med program is likely to boost a student’s excellence than to slack off. A lot of students tend to do well when not in stress. As mentioned earlier in D’s case she is far above the minimum gpa requirement of her program and even beating her fellow valedictorian classmates in almost everything. We had faintest idea this would happen when we agreed to her choice (against my own wish that she take up quantitative finance in undergrad)
Also, I can’t speak of every program, but the direct med program D is in ensures that the students are well prepared academically during the undergrad years so that they won’t face any lag effect when joined by traditional route students 3 years later. Some of the classes are specifically for the students of the program and taught by some of the tough profs on the campus (one being a Stanford Ph.D) who are liberal in giving Cs
Also the courses they take with the general premed population are not walks in the park either. Most of the pre med students in these classes are high caliber themselves and even more motivated. Some of them are for example, chemistry majors in the same chemistry class. I am not talking about Orgo, but even general chemistry. The prof was a hard nut (Ph.D from Columbia and post doc from Harvard Med school, with the highest grades in some of his tests in the 70s range as mentioned ealier).
Also in some schools it is possible to cross register in more rigorous courses in the neighborhood schools (for example Rutgers Newark / NJIT. Similarly Union / RPI? ,may have to find out)
@gallentjill - Average matriculation age for MD is on the rise (24 now) due to more people taking gap years and these will have more research and clinical experiences compared to BSMD students due to shortened UG that may impact med school performance and residency chances. Most med schools have P/F grading, USMLE scores and research and clinical LORs are critical. I am not saying it’s the case for everyone. Those are the factors that led my son to decline BSMD. Also, he doesn’t want to be one of the youngest in the medical school
I don’t know about others but when I’m looking for a doctor and there is one with Harvard UG and Johns Hopkins Medical school vs one from UNT and The Paul L. Foster School of Medicine, it’s not a difficult choice.
My experience with private practitioners, I think I shared this earlier here - firstly not sure if I ever came across or noticed a Harvard UG and JHU Med school guy and had to choose based on that. But few months ago I wanted to get an appointment with an ophthalmologist. I didn’t care much whether he/she was MD / DO and where they had undergrad and med school training. I picked up the phone and called few numbers listed on my insurance directory. One of the receptionists said they had a two month long waiting period if I wish to wait. So I went on with the next on the list and so on till I picked someone who gave an appointment the following week.
When I looked back, the doctor with a 2 month waiting period was an DO from some instate school followed by Ophthalmology residency in a similarly not so fancy place. The doctor where I got appointment the following week was an MD from NYU I think. His partner likewise is also from NYU and undergrad from UPenn and also had another MD in Internal medicine.
A friend of mine who suffered a hair line fracture on his foot and had the best insurance plan, chose to go to his regular DO doctor and not to an orthopedic surgeon. Then he did as directed to and referred by the first doctor.
So I guess what people care about is the human touch, trust and confidence they have on a person, built over a long period of time with care and professionalism, more than the trust on degrees he/she accumulated over his career (going by the latest scandals, God knows by what means )
In 2018 only 10 students got into Medical school. out of 200 (approx) BSMD Students.
only 10 students. that’s it.
Loyola university, Creighton university,regular premed program takes more students.
This is the best part about the BSMD application process: whether or not pursue a BSMD program over a “dream” school. Over the years I have witnessed much success and failure of our patients and offspring, who are intending to become a doc. The biggest cause of downfall was ego and greed. Unless you are a stellar student, who scored mostly 5 on science APs, it is not wise to go to a school where you will be an average student although it might be your “dream” school since it is extremely difficult to maintain 3.75 average in that college unless you are in top 20 percent of the student body. One of my patients was thrilled to get into her “dream” school, but that dream was quickly dashed when she couldn’t overcome 3.2 GPA even though she studied till 2 AM every night at her a little ivy school library. But that result was predictable based on her preparation. She was not adequately prepared to compete with stellar students. She was one of top students from a neighbor high school, where they produce 1 national merit semi-finalist per year. On the other hand, a young lady turned down Brooklyn BSMD to enter MIT, where she flourished doing research and continue to play piano. She was one of eight Fulbright recipients from MIT, and she is already scheduled to enter Harvard medical school. She was one of top students from a highly regarded magnet high school, where they produce about 125 national merit-semifinalist per year.
To give a real world perspective on direct vs. traditional route of going to a medical school, I am listing real students mostly from our office:
Harvard…2 yrs gap…mid tier MD ((((this student was envious of BSMD students…she was not selected into a
BSMD program))))
Harvard…1 yr. gap…mid tier MD…psych
Harvard…Caribbean med school
Columbia…top 10
Columbia… 2 yrs. gap
UPenn…dropped out of pre-med tract (dropped from now on)
Brown…2 yrs. gap… DO…OB/GYN
Brown…1 yr. gap…mid tier MD…IM
Brown…2 yrs. gap (hard post B)…dropped
MIT…2 yrs. gap… mid tier MD
MIT (turned down Brooklyn BSMD)… Fulbright scholar studying in Germany…Harvard Med(Scheduled) … she is an
excellent student from one of top magnet high school with elite level of piano skills, even playing with Boston
Pops Orchestra.
Northwestern… 2 yrs. gap…mid tier MD
Wash U…dropped
Cornell…4 yrs. gap…currently a research technician
Stanford…DO
Emory… low tier MD
CMU…2 yrs. gap…DO
JHU…2 yrs. gap…DO
RPI…top 25
NYU…mid tier MD
NYU…1 yr. gap…DO
NYU…Caribbean med school…IM…pulmonology…
U Mich…2 yrs. gap…mid tier MD
BC…low tier MD
BC…dropped
Stony…1 yr. gap…mid tier MD with partial merit scholarship (MCAT 99%)
Wesley…2 yrs. gap (easy post B)…mid tier MD …surgery .
Williams…top 10…anesthesiology
U of Rochester…DO
Swarthmore…2 yrs gap…??
Hunter College…2 yrs. gap… mid tier MD
St. John’s U…DO
Brandeis…3 yrs. gap…??(dropped??)
Virginia Tech…DO…neurology
Brooklyn/Downstate…neurosurgery
Union/Albany…IM…cardiology
Sophie Davis…Caribbean med school…IM
Sophie Davis… anesthesiology
UIC GPPA…Oxford(MS)…anesthesiology (Northwestern)
RPI/Albany
VCU BSMD
Brown PLME
Pleas save this for the future reference:
I highly recommend one to consider this program if you do NOT get into a US medical school:
Ochsner Clinical School - Medicine Program - University of Queensland. https://medicine-program.uq.edu.au/ochsner-clinical-school
This program combines first 2 yrs. at Brisbane Australia and last 2 yrs. at Baton Rouge Louisiana.
)