Trying to love the kid on the couch (high school sophomore)

Parents Forum
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<p>I am new to CC but I read often. Great network and very enlightening!</p>

<p>I hope someone can help: S, just began grade 10, is a reasonably bright kid who is completely unmotivated. We sent him to a small private HS for grade 9 thinking the small class size and teacher attention would be beneficial. In theory it was, but the curriculum was somewhat rigorous, and 3 of his teachers were hired in a hurry right before the start of school-- 2 of them turned out to be disastrous. One left right after the school yr. Bottom line is he failed those 2 classes, repeated one in summer school (got an A, thank god), and the other he is repeating this yr at the large public HS in our town. His MO is to do the least amount of work possible to get by, no sports, no EC's (sports and clubs are "gay"-- this has nothing to do with being gay, it's just his (unfortunate) terminology for something that is geeky or uncool). He is disorganized (loose papers in his backpack), and does not write his assignments in his planner, and if something took 10 more minutes of work to get an A vs B, he wouldn't do it. None of these behaviors is new, it's just that by grade 10, I thought he would have matured. I'm beginning to think he never will.</p>

<p>So now he has to assimilate into this large school with the uber athletes twice his size, "nerds" who will get perfect SAT scores, and everything in between. Thirty+ kids to a class, and no individual attention (unless the student goes to the teacher after school or during lunch, which he has historically refused to do-- much easier to get an F than to admit you don't know something and make the extra effort). There are no other private schools in the area, and sending him back to the same one is not an option.</p>

<p>When we ask him to read for 30 min, he responds "why would I want to do that!?" He used to enjoy reading when he was younger, but now it's uncool. (Only "geeks" read books.)</p>

<p>Over the past 1.5 yrs, we've taken him to 3 different counselors, with no real impact. We're currently having him evaluated for learning disorders/styles, but he was fine all the way thru elem and most of middle school. Was actually reading at grade 12 level at the end of grade 7. Nothing is more important to him now than (1) skateboarding, (2) listening to music, (3) social life. Academics is not on the list.</p>

<p>My fear is that he will end up with mediocre grades, no ECs, and therefore no college will want him. Some of you might suggest that he's bored, which may be true, but it isn't because the material is beneath him- it's because he isn't inspired/motivated. I'm not sure he will ever be able to handle any AP classes.</p>

<p>To top it off, my husband and I are both PhDs, so we are wondering how we could have sired this kid!
Thanks for any advice!</p>

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<p>Gal- sure sounds frustrating.</p>

<p>Was your son part of the decision to go to the private school, and is he part of the decision now to move to the public high school? From what you’ve described, your son figured out a while ago that you guys are going to do what you think is best for him, and his job is to float below the surface… not intentionally sabotaging your best intentions, just not participating to any meaningful extent.</p>

<p>So I’d enlist his help now. You guys need a family meeting to figure out what this next year is going to look like, and get his input and buy-in on his own goals. Remind him that you really want to help him get where he wants to go… and that teenagers usually need a grown up’s help to get there (except for the occasional child raised by wolves.)</p>

<p>He may surprise you. He may be thinking of the military, or traveling the world once he graduates HS, or ??? You don’t seem to be describing pathological behavior from him, so I doubt he’s building a bomb in the garage although I might be wrong.</p>

<p>At any rate, my point is that if you moved him to the private school to tap into all that great academic potential… you lose, mom. If you thought being around all those inspiring overacheivers would spur him to greater glory, he’s proved you wrong. etc. So it’s time to get him to articulate what HE wants to do, where he wants to go, and come up with a plan to get him there.</p>

<p>You will need to remind him that actions have consequences, and everybody has to do things they don’t want to do… you go grocery shopping even if you hate it because otherwise he would starve. Etc. So in addition to listening to what he wants, it’s time to off-load some of the household responsibilities to him, since he’s most likely the member of the household with the most leisure time, correct???</p>

<p>So if there are younger siblings, extra chores, etc if he opts not to be involved in something worthwhile after school (job, volunteering, team, activity, etc.) you are going to need his help to keep the household on track with the following chores: (and hold him to it.)</p>

<p>You should be starting the discussion now about learner’s permit, driver’s license, and the ways that he can start to show you that he’s mature enough to be hauling a potentially lethal vehicle around town someday. You should be starting the discussion about family finances, and how over the next few years you will be transitioning responsibility for funding his social life from your pocket to his… i.e start thinking about next summer job, etc.</p>

<p>Lots of boys his age give up reading for pleasure which is very sad but not uncommon. We found that non-fiction is more interesting than fiction; magazines better than books; anything on line (Slate, New Republic, even Huffington) seems to be more engaging than paper and ink. (See how old I am?)</p>

<p>So get creative on the reading. It all counts- almanacs of baseball statistics, the history of the Boston Celtics, doesn’t matter, even if you want to cringe when you leave the library. Surely he has at least one interest that can be pursued-- sports, old cars, vintage soda bottles, 18th century ephemera? Try to get him to identify ONE topic he’s curious about and then work with that. If he’s reading at a 12th grade level, he may find the non-fiction in Esquire, the fiction in the New Yorker, the social criticism/coverage in Vanity Fair a lot more interesting than your local daily newspaper… so start there.</p>

<p>Are there other siblings and what can you tell us about that dynamic? Is he close to any other family members (Aunts, grandparent?) and what is their perspective???</p>

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<p>A few thoughts: </p>

<p>1) Boys really do “get it” later than girls a lot of times. He may just need more time to grow up. He is a teenager and it could benothing more to it than this. When he’s ready to work harder and sees graduation looming and starts wondering about his future he may step up to the plate. 2) His parents are academics, so this may be his way of rebelling since he’s at that age anyway. Doing well in school, to his way of thinking, would mean ending up like Mom and Dad, and teenagers, by definition, are at the point where they want to separate from Mom and Dad. 3) You say he’s been to counseling and is currently undergoing evaluation. Has he been checked for ADD at all? His disorganization and anomie might stem from that. In addition, smart kids with ADD often hit the wall in HS, when their natural gifts aren’t enough any more to let them just carry through. 4) Who are his friends? Hanging out with the slackers might be making him into one. Little you can do about that directly if thats the case (and I hope you’re not comparing him to some high-performing sibling or neighbor’s kid). But still, it might be a clue to his lethargy.5) The big one: drugs. Getting high or drinking can seriously ■■■■■■ his efforts to be or accomplish anything. Make sure that isn’t an issue. Unfortunately. sometime parents are the last to know. </p>

<p>My advice: listen to him and glom onto any serious non-academic thing he is into and get him to pursue it seriously. The non-academic thing is often a hook to keep kids engaged and he may find that something at his new school. With one of mine it was athletics, with another it was music. But anything will do. I feel your pain, as I am going through the same thing with mine, to varying degrees. I think they’ll turn out OK, and iI’m hoping yours will too.</p>

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<p>Have you had him evaluated to see if he might have some learning difference and/or attention deficit disorder? I don’t at all mean to sound insulting. I do not know your child, but you do. If you think that might be a possibility, you might want to get him evaluated asap.</p>

<p>Just had cross posted with bigappledaddy.</p>

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<p>Is he a “young” sophomore, just wondering because it might be his way of feeling insecure around the older kids. The first couple years of high school are brutal for the younger and just physically younger male kids. My third boy is just now entering high school and is 15 and everything is “gay”, but I can say that academic performace with boys is closely aligned to their friends. My oldest had non-academically inclined friends and slacked his way through high school surviving and doing well only because of his intelligence and our diligence and not his motivation or study habits. His friends clearly influenced his attitudes. Number 2 has friends that are high succeeding academically and is more driven to be like his friends. Again, his friends greatly influence his attitudes. The friends have a huge impact on the “attitude” and in my brief experience sophomore year is quite pivotal for setting the course for the remainder of high school in that regard and the friendships are cemented. I watched my oldest drop like a rock most of his elementary school friends who were smart, involved in school, etc. Get to know his friends! My only other advice for you is to subtlely try to steer him into some school activity. If he boards, and you are in ski country, snowboarding or skiing is a good diversion. If he likes music, perhaps there is a club or activity. Having interests outside of his particular group of friends helps with the attitude. Also, with my number one, his friends never, ever studied but we just put our foot down and told him he couldn’t hang out until the homework was finished and set a time for it (right after dinner) and he was in a rigorous curriculum unlike his friends. Once the homework was finished we let him go, but we never waivered on that edict which did help him at least keep a B+ average through high school. He is doing very well in college far from his old high school friends. My sympathy as we’ve been there done that and so have some of our friends.</p>

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<p>Is he 16 yet? I think he needs to get a job, whether or not you or he need the money. If it involves french fries or cleaning up a movie theatre, so much the better. A minimum wage job will show him what the working world of “no degree required” is like. He may hate it and it may inspire him at school, or he may think that type of work is just fine for him.</p>

<p>As has been said, he might not want to go to college. One neighbor kid did miserably at our local CC, quit, and is a waiter at a local restaurant. The restraurant keeps trying to get him to be a manager trainee but he says he just want to be a waiter. Another neighbor kid finally worked up enough nerve to tell his parents that he wanted to go to cosmetology school, not college.</p>

<p>Remember that life is long. Even if he blows every chance you give him at higher education, he may see the light. My sister got her BA at the age of 47 and her masters at 52.</p>

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<p>We all posted at the same time! On the reading, my second dropped reading like a rock which was sad for me as I generally have 3 or 4 books all going at the same time… but he loves music and asked for a subscription to Rolling Stone which he reads the minute it arrives from cover to cover. If he ever “asks” for a particular book, I’m at Barnes & Noble as fast as I can. Find something that your son likes to read, take the cue and let him take the initiative.</p>

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<p>Missypie’s job idea is right on the money. Nothing motivates a kid more than seeing what his future will be like if he doesn’t get off the sofa! Also, that will get him ‘out there’ into the world with other kids so his social aspects might pick up too.</p>

<p>Good luck!!!</p>

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<p>Wow, great and very helpful replies, thank you.
S did not have a choice last yr when we “told” him he would be attending private school. He was not happy with us, and I think he tried to teach us a lesson early on by not assimilating right away, but eventually he came around and wanted to stay there for grade 10 (mainly because by then he knew everyone). Unfortuantely given the catastrophic outcome with those 2 classes, we decided not to return him (again he had no choice in the matter). Yes we could have involved him in the choices, and maybe it was a mistake not to, but we didn’t feel he was anywhere mature enough to make the choice for the right reasons. (Staying at the private school, which is what he wanted, would have cost us another $20k and he would have had those terrible teachers again. None of that mattered to him!)
S2 is 2 yrs younger and so unlike S1. S2 is a superb athlete, straight A student, taller and more muscular than S1, and more outgoing. Has good friends too. S1 had great friends in middle school, but he seems to be gravitating to the more unsavory set now-- not necesarily druggies, but kids who have no ambition. He has kept friends (good kids) from the private school, but he won’t see much of them now, unfortunately.
We did have him tested twice for ADHD (separate occasions by separate clinicians), and he doesn’t have it.
Every evening I sit near him while he’s doing homework and make sure he gets it done. Seems like overkill for a sophomore, but it’s necessary. S2 is completely on autopilot, thankfully.
We’ve talked about a learner’s permit and told S1 he has to have at least a 3.0 to get it. He will be 16 in Dec, so a job next summer is definitely on the radar.
His school has an extreme sports club, and S1 loves to skate and snowboard, but isn’t enthused about joining the club. He also does not like competition, so that is a huge detriment (hey, life is competition!).
Sigh. We will keep plugging away. Thanks again for your ideas and experience.</p>

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<p>Just want to chime in her on the LD wagon. DD was not diagnosed with her LDs until 8th grade for one and 9th grade for the other. It’s not at all uncommon for smart kids with LDs to mask the LDs until late middle school or high school when the type of work gets tougher. They types of things you describe he does (doesn’t write things down in his planner, papers shoved in his backpack, etc.) are Executive Function areas. While that can be affected by ADHD, another culprit is NVLD (Non-Verbal Learning Disability.) That one gets passed over a lot by counselors because it’s not yet in the DSM.</p>

<p>The thing with LDs is that the kid has to own the problem. You can’t “make” them be organized, even if they have a diagnosis and are on meds. My DD was somewhat relieved when she was diagnosed because she had a reason for her poor performance and she could then work on “fixing” it. </p>

<p>Hope this helps!</p>

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<p>Boys need to hear the message about the importance of being mentally tough, independent and self-sufficient. </p>

<p>I would have him working as soon as possible and paying for every single discretionary expense possible.</p>

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<p>I forgot to add that my sister teaches at a community college - she loves reaching out to kids who are as unfocussed as she was.</p>

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<p>Agree with Missypie on the job. The smellier the better (although one of my own slackers said to me after I suggested working at the Gap " I don’t put my clothes away at home, why would I do it somewhere else?")</p>

<p>Note to self… get kid to clean up the piles of laundry on the floor.</p>

<p>Anyway, I digress.</p>

<p>I think what we’re all trying to suggest is not to focus as much on academics, grades, etc. as it appears you have been doing. The point is focus on life skills, being responsible, having other people know they can count on you, showing up on time, etc. I met a very successful guy in corporate America recently who told me that his greatest accomplishment was being named Employee of the Year at a Wendy’s store in Cincinnati when he was 17 years old. The guy has a resume 4 pages long of tremendous achievement… but said that when he goes home to see his folks, he drops by the restaurant to look at the little plaque which is still hanging in the hallway outside the men’s room. It was the most validating thing he’s ever done in his life- he now runs a business worth billions, manages tens of thousands of people, but this was the turning point in his life.</p>

<p>So I wouldn’t be losing sleep on the academic front. I’d be very worried about a HS sophomore who has time for music, skateboarding, socializing, etc. if he’s not also in charge of making dinner two nights a week, walking a younger sibling home from girl scouts, a part time job (or raking leaves for elderly neighbors), and/or doing play therapy with an autistic child.</p>

<p>Get him busy. Get him being productive and responsible and getting kudos for things that are not intellectual. Get him out into the grown up world (and away from the friends at least for a few hours a day). Teach him to make coq au vin, or a perfect chocolate chip pancake, or a fantastic lemon pound cake. </p>

<p>People don’t learn the time management skills required to be adults through osmosis.</p>

<p>Does he watch TV? My kid (the original “love the kid on the couch” by the way) had his own ah-ha moment the day I printed out the bio’s of the writers and producers of the Simpsons and his other favorite shows. Can anyone spell Hasty Pudding?</p>

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<p>BfloGal: re: not having ADHD. That may not be true depending on what other testing he had done. DD also tested as not having ADHD; her visual attention was low average, so the tester said it was OK. Our pediatrician and I talked about this because one of the problems of LD testing when a child is also gifted is that the child is being compared to average norms. If a child has a gifted verbal ability but is low average in attention the gap in function level is huge. It took me a while to understand that. </p>

<p>Long dissertation could be inserted here :slight_smile: but we did a medication trial and the results were astounding. Her science grade alone came up 18 points within 6 weeks. I’m not saying meds are always the answer; they aren’t. </p>

<p>Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.</p>

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<p>“My fear is that he will end up with mediocre grades, no ECs, and therefore no college will want him”</p>

<p>Not likely. First, ECs don’t matter for most colleges in the country. It’s mainly the very top colleges in the country – places like HPY that use ECs to create a diverse, active student body by picking and choosing from the many students with outstanding stats who apply.</p>

<p>Second, there’s a college for virtually anyone in this country who wants to go to college.</p>

<p>Third: Boys in particular take longer to mature and to become focused than do girls. Virtually everyone I know who has sons has had similar problems with at least one of their sons. Most people I know are highly educated including college professors who highly value education. Sons, however, choose to go their own ways. The exception appears to be sons who are first generation Americans with Asian or African parents. </p>

<p>Saying this as an Ivy grad with a doctorate who formally taught college, and is married to a college professor. We have 2 sons who were raised in book-loving, education valuing families, and who virtually grew up on college campuses.</p>

<p>In high school, both were major slackers. Older S due to high scores, rigorous curriculum (his choice), and an extraordinary EC got into 2 top 25 colleges, and accepted a virtually full ride to a second tier public that he loved. There, he continued to do wonderfully in his EC, but didn’t bother to go to class or show up for tests because he felt college was a waste of time. At 25, he still hasn’t returned to college, but supports himself by doing office work. He reads extensively and is well informed and is writing a novel for fun, but still thinks college would be a waste of time. (This from a kid who was a 5th generation college student!).</p>

<p>He probably would have been on a different track if I hadn’t gone out of my way to structure his time in high school so he got in apps to colleges that interested him. That son would have benefited from a gap year in which he had had to work fulltime.</p>

<p>Learned my lesson, so didn’t help younger son apply to college. He missed all of the deadlines for colleges that interested him, and – as was the case with his older brother – his grades dropped a great deal senior year due to senioritis. He ended up finding himself an Americorps job, and living at home (his choice) while paying rent the year after high school. Then, he went to the college of his choice with merit aid and large loans since my H and I told him that we wouldn’t invest in his college education until S had a year of acceptable grades. </p>

<p>He’s now a junior, and a dean’s list student who is active in productive ECs, and having a wonderful life at the college he loves.</p>

<p>The only reason I’d suggest that you force your son to get involved in ECs is that such activities will help your son figure out what he wants to do as a career, and also will help your son develop social skills and hobbies that will be a source of fulfillment for a lifetime. Our house rule was that our sons had to be involved in one activity outside of the classroom. That could be a job, community service, sport or a community or school club. If our kids wouldn’t pick one, we’d pick one that we thought they’d like, and they’d have to stay in that activity until they found one that they preferred.</p>

<p>Anyway, don’t blame yourself for your son’s behavior. I have 2 male friends who are college professors who were slackers until they were in their mid 20s. They dropped out of various colleges, traveled with rock bands, and didn’t get serious about their academics until they finally matured – and finally noticed that people who took college and academics seriously were doing far better in terms of careers, etc. than they were.</p>

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<p>My very bright, pragmatic, quirky D was a good (not great) hs student who hated extracurriculars but loved music. She sounds a lot like your S – not necessarily academically but maybe socially and definitely in the “I hate extracurricular activies” attitude.</p>

<p>Is your son a typical skater kid? What kind of music does he like? There was a spell when my D was obsessed with alternative/punk-pop/emo music. She wouldn’t read for fun but she did read Rolling Stone/Spin/AP cover-to-cover. She knew everything about local bands in our area and wrote reviews of local (underground) shows for the school paper. In her junior year she (grudgingly) joined the school radio station - not as an on-air personality but in the promotions area. To her surprise, she really liked it (lots of like-minded music kids.) She helped organize and promote local band shows and even did some management of a local band. As part of a service project she set up a benefit concert where the proceeds went towards funding music programs at a low-income daycare center. </p>

<p>You get the picture. Her extracurricular “profile” was atypical but completely suited her real interests. I like to think that maybe her more unconventional activities caught the interest of some scholarship/admission people - she was the kid who used her “diversity” essay to talk about the crowds at Warped Tour. She’s currently a sophomore in a respected business school with a near-perfect GPA (who knew?), still pragmatic and quirky. I think the trick is to channel natural interest - no matter how “worthless” that interest may seem to us parents - into outlets that may seem unconventional at first. It worked for us!</p>

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<p>Or not even until college. Long story short: D (HS class of 09) is identified as gifted, but had similar problems with organization and attention. She was tested for ADHD in elementary school - came back negative. She managed to get decent grades, with minimal effort, in middle and high school. We assumed it was an attitude issue, not a LD, so we treated her accordingly, as many of the above posters recommend. Incentives, consequences, etc. to no avail. </p>

<p>After doing some research, we (including D) decided to have her tested again before starting college this fall. Lo and behold, a diagnosis of mild ADHD.</p>

<p>We’re on hold waiting to see how college goes, but I’ve already spoken to the LD specialist at her college who said it is not uncommon, as RobD says, for some kids (especially bright ones) to not be diagnosed with LDs until very late in their academic career.</p>

<p>Feel free to PM me - I think we are just a few steps ahead of you in working through this.</p>

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<p>Improvement on a medication trial does not confirm a diagnosis of ADHD.</p>

<p>By the way, as far as I can tell, my kid will be taking no AP’s .</p>

<p>Good luck to him, and remember it would be farcworse if he had no social skills/friends.</p>

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<p>Buy him a snow shovel, a rake, a lawnmower, and a gallon of gasoline. Don’t give him money for pizza, movies, or girlfriends. Maybe he’ll embrace school. Maybe he’ll start a local landscaping business and buy a big house in a few years.</p>

<p>Most importantly, don’t compare him to other students. You’re not doing him a service comparing him to the athletes or the perfect SAT students. That’s not your son (it’s not most of our children) and no matter what you do, that’s never going to be your son. Remember that improvement is an incremental process and that back-sliding is an expected part of rehabilitation.</p>

<p>Encourage him to find an elective course that interests him and encourage his achievement in that class as much as history. Who knows, he might be a great photographer or sculptor.</p>

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<p>I didn’t mention this earlier, but this summer S1 (at my insistence) had been doing some work on a local organic farm, mainly harvesting. He seemed to like it, and it’s also taught him something about foods and sustainable agriculture. One day he came home with an armful of fresh produce and cooked me a dinner of pan seared salmon with sauteed veggies over the top. It was amazing. He learned how to do this from the farmer. Unfortunately he didn’t eat any of it himself, to my great disappointment. (He is a terrible eater, but that’s a topic for another thread.) Unfortunately he got involved in the farm very late in the summer, and then school started. So unless he helps out the farmer at the local farmers market on Sat mornings, he won’t be doing any farm work for awhile.
As for TV and video games, the rule in our house is no TV at all during the week, and computer/video game time can be “bought” with reading time: you read for 30 minutes (has to be grade level appropriate), you get 30 min of game time.
Basically S1 is a skater dude who thinks anyone into academcs and sports is geeky. I am wondering if this is a defense mechanism for him deep down feeling somewhat inadequate on both those fronts.</p>