Unhealthy Relationships, Version Two

Parents Forum
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<p>Reasons why I see a problem:</p>

<p>*Grades are slipping.<br>
*He moves in during mid-years.<br>
*He calls all the time and he's NOT in middle school.<br>
*"And she's regressing emotionally since her involvement with him. She was actually more mature when she graduated from high school. Her grades are slipping, her focus is off, her ambition is diluted, and she's overly tired."
*"He calls her an average of five to twelve times a day. Every day. Of course, each call reports as a line item on the bill, hence the thickness of the bill. But what was equally astonishing was the total absence of anyone else in her life." That speaks to isolation - NOT redefining a relationship. It's too radical for redefinition.
*"He also went to all of her classes with her." That is crazy. My ex tried to do the same thing - tailed me everywhere. It ain't love - it's possession. </p>

<p>This is NOT typical young love behaviour. I'm two years older than the D in question - and it's not the foundation of any healthy relationship. You can have a "Rules" (ugh, ugh ugh) relationship or a modern relationship, and they can still be healthy - but, when her grades are slipping, she's in danger of losing her scholarship, he comes on too strong, too fast, he won't leave her alone, and she doesn't have a life outside of him - there is a problem. That's not a young relationship. If she wanted to get away from him, do you think she could say, "Fred, I've had enough. This isn't what I want in my life now - you're a nice guy, but it's the wrong time for me." and that would be it? If yes - healthy. If no - problem.</p>

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<p>"He calls just as we're beginning to string the lights, with tickets to a theme park in another city - it's a very special, sudden surprise - and they must leave within the hour. He's coming to get her.</p>

<p>When I reacted by saying wait, this is a family evening, I thought we were doing our decorating, preparing for Christmas, why cannot they go to the theme park the next night, she reacted by saying she was tired of all the "pressure" from people wanting her to do things - "I get it from Fred, I get it from you" - that told me that he is pressuring her constantly, when she is at school."</p>

<p>(Shivers) Geez, bring me back five years.... (shivers again)</p>

<p>Halloween. He tags along to a family birthday party. When we get back, my girlfriends are waiting for me. I explain to him that I'm heading out with them for the night. They are all in costume. We had a great picture of the girl gang from the previous year: all seven of us, dressed to the nines (everything from clowns to French maids), and smiling. All the girls left the boyfriends at home. I got dressed into a costume, came downstairs, and he promptly followed me everywhere. Insisted that he get in the picture with us. When we left (six of us), he all but forced me into his car, then made me ask my friends if he could tag along. Friends said yes (though I was hoping they would say no - so I could blame the "no boyfriends" policy and have the annual girl's night out), reluctantly. Five girls in one car, us two in his car. Ten minutes later, he basically left them and drove me home, saying that he didn't want to go out with them and that he didn't want me driving in a car without seatbelts (b/c there would be six to a car).</p>

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<p>Re "The Rules", just a point of clarification. I follow the principle, not letter and verse. For example, it's o.k. to express interest, however, it's NOT o.k. to obsessively call, chase and pursue gentlemen who are not interested, or who are in committed relationships. It's also NOT o.k. to be overly available, especially to the detriment of one's own goals and life.</p>

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<p>TheDad, interesting and good point. The Rules, if I recall correctly, teaches women that manipulation of men is the key to controlling their recations to women. IMHO, it's much easier and much more effective to have a basic sense of what's good for you and what isn't...and to let your instincts take you from there. Women with good instincts and a littl experience behind them don't have any need for "rules". The problem here is that LTS' D doesn't seem to have the instincts or experience to raise the red flags on her own. For some reason, this feels right to her. </p>

<p>The constant ringing of the phone during dinner shouldn't bring a "I have to answer it or he'll keep calling" reaction - rather, it should bring an annoyed response that he can't leave a message and assume that she's tied up for the moment. Prior to being married, I had lots of experience with the constant callers. I remember answering ghr phone and saying "OMG "name", quick, tell me that the emergency is because I KNOW you must be in the middle of life-threatening medical crisis to call me back to back like this!!!" The fact that LTS' D finds this behavior attractive speaks to the fact that she has some of the same flaws I'm concerned about in my son - though, he admits that he has a problem with his GF - LTS' D isn't admitting anything, so far.</p>

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<p>Ariesathena, we had a scenario over the summer where she came home one night very late, and, I initiated a very calm confrontation. I'm not an emotional or argumentative person by nature - when I confront, it's generally calm and measured; I never raise my voice. </p>

<p>Anyway, I confronted the issue - that she was spending all of her time with him, and, I repeated my litany - "it's o.k. to socialize with Fred, but I would also hope to see Marks and Steves and Jeffs and Marys and Susans in your life" etc. I also expressed my concern that the other areas of her life - the things she always valued and the goals she set for herself - were being neglected. </p>

<p>Somehow, the discussion deteriorated, she went to her room angry. Of course, he called. Of course, she related the "argument". He promptly rushed right over rescued her. I went upstairs to the sound of clothes being thown into suitcases. He was coming to get her, so she could be at peace and not bothered. It was two in the morning. </p>

<p>I wonder if you can imagine my absolute horror, my shock, at my child being "rescued" from the sanctity of our home in the middle of the night. Since I couldn't stand to sit there and watch, I picked up my car keys and quietly left and stayed gone until I could be sure he had come and they were gone. Before I left, I told her I loved her; that this was her home, and that she was always welcome here and dearly loved and greatly valued. I couldn't imagine that - what if he got into an accident, and our parting words were an argument? I simply didn't know what else to do.</p>

<p>She came home some days after, and we talked. I told her again of my concerns. She admitted all of them - and said she is not even slightly serious about him - he's simply "fun". Furthermore, she says she has told him she is not serious about him in any way. She was home on break, and was very tired. Apparently he doesn't hear this, or he doesn't care. </p>

<p>I told her that gentlemen who are truly caring and supportive do not encourage young ladies to argue with their parents; certainly, they do not pull young ladies from their homes at two in the morning!</p>

<p>She agrees with everything I say on an intellectual level, but the understanding doesn't penetrate and translate to actionable intelligence. He seems to amplify every parental discussion into something far worse than it is. Is this perhaps because his relationship with his own parents is so unrewarding?</p>

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<p>Sorry folks, I just have a different take here. I see something I've seen many times, a single Mom who is very close to a daughter having a hard time seeing her fly the coop. Mom doesn't want things to change, she is not ready for her daughter to be independent (surprised that Fred has achieved social par with her) and wants to be in control of a 21 year old. Late, I've long taken a back seat to all of my kid's romantic interests. </p>

<p>This is a D1 athlete and premed, she has to be pretty tough. I think her biggest problem is Mom's expectations, not necessarily Fred. Don't get me wrong, Fred could be a creep, I just don't see evidence. She comes home for Christmas and he takes her from the bosom of her family. I know if it were my kids they would have wanted to go and while I wish I had more time with them, I understand that Mom can't compete with a hot boyfriend! He followed you to the airport. Are we sure she didn't want him to? Did Mom insist on making the airport run rather than letting boyfried see her off? </p>

<p>Is daughter torn because Mom counts on her companionship and lets Mom down gently by saying, oh, I have to answer, he needs me? Did she want the apartment across from the gym, too? Good chance would be my guess. Again letting Mom down gently perhaps by saying I'd love to be with you but it's just easier....Things change and we can't keep thing the way we liked them best.</p>

<p>As for my phone habit with boyfriend, simply, I'm in love. We like to hear each others voices. We need to share in the moment. He'll make a 20 second call with a bad joke. We'll contemplete dinner options, we just love to stay connected. Young love, old love, it will die down but it's fun!</p>

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<p>Momsdream - yes, I can see incoming call numbers on our itemized cell phone bill. Before this fall, I never even ever glanced at the phone bill except to pay it. The thickness of the bills that began to arrive in September made me look - you know how your phone bill is usually just a few pages? Well, the first one that arrived in September was huge - I tore it open in a panick, expecting to see a balance due for hundreds of dollars. It wasn't - it was the normal amount, so I drilled into it, and there a simply huge numbers of calls from his number. On some days they are hourly. I'm not exaggerating when I say there are seven eight, 10, 12 a day - every single day. Most of the time, it's a one-minute call - obviously he's calling when she's in class etc. Sometimes they're at 5:30 in the morning and sometimes after 11 at night and so on.</p>

<p>Susequent phone bills have been the same. </p>

<p>I did ask her about it - and I told her it was very strange behavior. She said he calls so much because "I blow him off a lot" - in fact, she said, if she were him she wouldn't date her, because she "blows him off so much".</p>

<p>I have told her variations of "this is excessive" and "you do not have to answer" etc. to no avail.</p>

<p>How are you dealing with the issue of your son's young lady?</p>

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<p>There are some things peppered in LTS' comments that point to some of what Kirmum is saying. </p>

<p>"I told her that gentlemen who are truly caring and supportive do not encourage young ladies to argue with their parents; certainly, they do not pull young ladies from their homes at two in the morning!"</p>

<p>They do if the young ladie asks to be pulled. i.e. "I'm angry at my mom, come get me!"
I can see that easier than I can see him forcing her out.</p>

<p>I do think there are serious issues with Fred. Some of what LTS' has said points to that. But, some one what she has said also doesn't fit.....and sounds like it speaks to Kirmum's point. </p>

<p>Frankly, I think both issues are at hand.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I think you need an on-the-ground third party opinion here. Could be your priest or the school psychologist or a mutual friend, some one who knows both parties. It is impossible to judge whether you are under or over reacting. Both are potentially harmful.

[/quote]
Imho, this is the most important suggestion so far, and a critically important one. </p>

<p>The intensity of Fred and D's relationship seems dangerous to lateto, but could be quite normal for the first intense period of young love. Xmas gifts from Fred to lateto seem "forced" on her by lateto and tons of calls between Fred and D make mom feel stalked. D choosing time w Fred over family activities is really hurting and worrying lateto, but it is not unusual at this age and with the length of their relationship for Ds to start including BFs in family holiday activities. D knows, tho, that this wouldn't be welcome w Fred and so is already being "pulled" in opposing directions.</p>

<p>Lateto, you really want to do the best thing or you wouldn't be posting here. I applaud you. But I sense this has been bottled up inside you for a long time. And while I will be the first to applaud the amazing wisdom available here on cc, I don't think it's a subsitute in a case like this for qualified help in your space,not cyberspace.</p>

<p>It's too easy for people here to project, feed your fears that Fred is psychotic/abusive/a stalker. Or alternatively downplay what could be a bad situation. There's too much at stake, I think, for you to peruse and choose advice from what we have to say.</p>

<p>Please keep us posted as we want to empathize and help. But I truly hope you won't substitute our offerings for real help "on the ground."</p>

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<p>Kirmum, sorry, but this young lady is a junior in college, we're well past any separation issues, and furthermore, this single mom travels a lot, has an active social life, a busy, productive career, and thoroughly enjoys the liberation from the day to day of parenting. In addition, I have serious personal goals that have been on hold for a long time - I've been waiting for these years, so that I could be free to pursue my own interests. </p>

<p>Furthermore, if this relationship were healthy, if daugher were thriving and progressing into adulthood, if the young man was supportive of her academic and pre-career progress, I'd be thrilled. Nothing would make me happier than to see her progress into a supportive, healthy committed relationship with a nice young man. The sort of relationship that might result in a long, happy marriage. But that isn't happening. There is very clear evidence of regression, in all areas, including academic.</p>

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<p>Kirmum: I guess I disagree because I've been there... but it's also the collection of problems, not just one thing. </p>

<p>I guess I'm trying to say that, if you ignore LateToSchool's reaction, and just look at Fred's behaviour, clearly, something quite troubling emerges. He calls her all the time, guilts her, pushes for something serious (although she apparently doesn't want anything serious), and freakin' moves in during mid-years (instead of moving in the next week - hello) - that's a problem. LTS could be a Bible-thumping Christian with a purple mohawk (no offense to any BTCWPMs out there) or the most well-adjusted parent in the world, but it's still a problem. I just can't see this as healthy.</p>

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<p>This sounds like a girl who knows exactly what she's doing and is, in fact, probably the one controlling the relationship. She told her Mom she doesn't know why he still dates her because she always blows him off. That tells me all I need to know about who's in control. She's having fun, not the kind Mom approves of, but I think this girl is OK.</p>

<p>I'm with jmmom, you're projecting Aries. She doen't seem to feel guilty, sounds like she feels free to be honest that it's not serious for her, and we haven't heard her say any of his stays were unwelcome. It's clear you had a bad experience Aries, but this girl seems on top of things.</p>

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<p>Kirmum, it's more than that - the reason I'm "involved", and one of the initial reason for this post, is that as parent and financial supporter, I'm being asked for things. Apartments of campus, money for MCAT preps, etc. It's my responsibility and desire to support this young lady all the way through to her terminal degree, and beyond, if necessary. </p>

<p>But I need to have some decisioning framework for how and where to direct my support. And I am concerned when money earned at a summer job disappears into the fog that is Fred. I am also VERY concerned when a happy, healthy young woman is suddenly stressed, losing gpa, not caring for herself or her belongings or her living space, and is not taking care of basic responsibilities. </p>

<p>You are involved in a multiple-call per day relationship; let me ask you some questions: are your living quarters clean, and well organized? are your other personal relationships active and on track? is your relationship with your family on track? if you're in school, are your grades on track? or if you're employed, how are your relationships with your peers and supervisors? is your boyfriend supportive of your other activities and your life goals? </p>

<p>If your answers are "yes", then, by all means there's nothing wrong with calling someone 12 times in a day. Every day. If you like it, I love it. You can "afford" to be on the phone with someone 12 times a day, even 50 times a day, if the rest of your life is in balance. </p>

<p>But that's not the case with my D. Every other area of her life is now subordinate to Fred. Every single one. And he's not a positive influence. His litany is "feel sorry for me, my parents are bad" etc...</p>

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<p>Kirmum: I disagree. I know how sane people my age act, and Fred isn't doing it. See my list, w/ special attention to #2, 7, and 8. Even if you are right - the girl needs help. Grades shouldn't be slipping, money from summer employment shouldn't be gone, and her life shouldn't be deteriorating. 'Nuff said.</p>

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<p>More to the point, if this were, say, any of the three or four young men she dated before Fred, I'd be thrilled if they called her, say, 100 times a day. </p>

<p>The difference is, to a person, these young men are happy with their families, they are proud of their parents, in control of their lives; they value themselves, and her. They are ambitious about their education and future career goals, and respectful of themselves and others. They too got lost somewhere in the Fred fog.</p>

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<p>LTS, I don't believe your D is blowing him off. If she was, she would get sick of him and his calls and this would be over. She's probably answering and he's asking "where are you"? - she'll say "in class, call you back?" ..... and it goes on like that....or he'll call and say "love me?" and she'll say "yes"..and he'll hang up.....little love games like that. Constant calling where she isn't answering would be a problem and would scare me. Constant calling where she is answering points to her, as well....as she is actively participating. I think this is what Kirmum is saying is normal.....and I agree. I've done this, as well. There are all sorts of cute/sexy/funny one liners that someone can lay on you in the middle of class, business meeting, etc. - and it's fun and exciting to be the recipient and to try to keep a straight face or figure out how to respond without tipping your hand about what the quick call was about. Heck, I play this game pretty regularly. </p>

<p>I don't think your D is being honest with you. She's not serious about him but she's sleeping at his home frequently and gone for days at a time with him? That's serious in my book - no matter what she says! </p>

<p>Hmmm...now that I have mulled this over...I wonder if a some of the inconsistencies you find in Fred are coming from your D not being up front and maybe making up stuff for your benefit. After all, her grades are slipping and she has lost her friends, which means that something is going on with HER...and I bet it's more than Fred. Fred is the symptom. </p>

<p>I disagree with Aries on one thing.....she said that you should focus on the fact that your D is fine and the problem is with Fred. In fact, this is not the case. (Aries, forgive me if I paraphrased wrong as I can't see the post while I type this). WOmen who are in these situations are in them because they have their own issues to work through - issues that existed BEFORE the realtionship and these same issues will lead them into more of the same if they aren't addressed and corrected. So, the problem IS with LTS' daughter. </p>

<p>However, I now wonder if this really is an abuse situation OR if this is LTS' D getting a little caught up with this guy, who may be ok.....and reacting to pressures she's feeling from multiple sources. </p>

<p>LTS, in response to your question about my son. I am not doing anything. I turned her away on the night before one of his midterms because he came to me and sighed "mom, I want to be up front and tell you that she's on her way over". This was an odd thing for him to say - the "I want to be up front" part. I knew HE knew that her coming over wasn't best for him, regardless of what I thought. So, I said she couldn't come over. He said ok and went to call her. He came back in a monent and said she was very upset - then he changed the subject and we chatted on other topics before he went to study. Other than intervening where I am invited to interve or asked my opinion, I can't do much. As for the money, I know he is about to come upon a large sum of money (large for a teen - $500) this week. I've asked him what he plans on doing with it and he has detailed his plans. He wants computer equipment. Thus, I have offered to take him to the store to make the purchase with him because I know what to get - when, in fact, i am going because I want to see that the money is spent on him before she gets hungry and want to go to dinner...which is her usual. </p>

<p>I have also taken some of the advice from CC parents. I've begun to ask open ended questions that don't target or pinpoint my purpose. I'm hoping that he'll get sick of it. If he doesn't I'm banking on them parting ways this coming summer - and in the fall they'll most likely be headed off the separate schools...unless she turns her ED deferral around.</p>

<p>Also, LTS, don't give a second thought to the "single mom" comments. I got slapped with that when I first came on here - something like "you're a single mom with no life outside of your son and you're obsessed over his life and him leaving home". I'm not sure who started such rumors about single moms - but at least a few people on CC seem to have bought into it, erroneously. The person who slapped me with it neglected to realize that I had gotten married, had another child and realized a very busy and fulfilling career and philanthropic life. I wish we could get past the notion that single moms are all barefoot and miserable.</p>

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<p>Momsdream: yes and no. I'm coming up empty with the analogy... but maybe later. Best I can explain is that, yes, there could be a latent problem with her (see above - get her into counseling, no matter what!), and, even if there wasn't originally, there probably is one now. However, it's often the case that imperfections in our psyches or characters can be exploited by people - stress, worry about achievement, you name it - so yes, the problem technically starts with her, but Fred is, IMO, blowing that all out of proportion. </p>

<p>I'll also say that, from personal experience, I do know that it's possible to change. I had been happy and confident before the nutcase; I was happy and confident after I got rid of him. No one's psyche is so flawless as to be impenetrable. I don't mean to be snide or rude or condescending (as I truly respect all of the parents here), but... are you familiar with the psychology of an abusive relationship? I posted the standard warning signs, but, if I can dig it up, I'll also try to find a few things about what happens to someone who is in a bad, unhealthy relationship. </p>

<p>Can we at least agree that this young lady needs some intervention? Please? </p>

<p>Finally - calling during class is NOT kosher. I don't care if it's a lecture hall - not right.</p>

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<p>Aries wrote : (although she apparently doesn't want anything serious)</p>

<p>She practically moved in with him!! She WANTS it to be serious!</p>

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<p>Momsdream, I agree with you - the problem is basically with D, in that, why is she allowing this? - that has been my position all along, and I have stated it clearly to her. I have stressed to her that this isn't "about" Fred, it's about what she permits.</p>

<p>I also agree re the inconsistencies. She isn't being honest about it all, there are too many things that simply do not line up. </p>

<p>Even if/when this relationship ends, there is surely going to be an endless supply of Freds, unless she decides otherwise. So yes, Fred is simply a symtom of a larger problem of some sort. </p>

<p>Which gets me back to the original point of this post. Consider the condition of a D-1 athlete, getting lots of awards, in a pre-med curriculum, actually pursuing two degrees. She'll have her B.S. end of next year and her B.A. at end of year five. Her courseload this semester is the standard diet of org chem, bio, physics, and some other things; she averages 18 credits per semester, and is holding a gpa over 3.0. </p>

<p>Could this simply be a way for her to offload stress? If so, what do I do as parent? Should I continue to support, even to the extent of the off-campus apartment? Ignore this and hope it somehow goes away, that it's just a "phase"? </p>

<p>Could Kirmum be partially right, and Ariesathena also be partially right? </p>

<p>Is there any chance at all that this is just some sort of odd growth issue? Especially since all of her other relationships have been normal and healthy?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Finally - calling during class is NOT kosher. I don't care if it's a lecture hall - not right.

[/quote]
Why is phone on during class? And, to carry that a bit further, if the calls are all too much, her cellphone probably has the same off button that mine does. The number of calls/day any of us receives from anyone is totally within our own control.</p>