Unhealthy Relationships, Version Two

Parents Forum
1

<p>I've wanted to post this for months, and haven't been able to bring myself to do it. I do understand that once our children are in college and moving towards independence, they must make their own choices, and that my time to guide, develop and influence happened in the first 20 years.</p>

<p>But what can or should a parent do if (1) the child is now 21 and a junior in college; (2) they are unreceptive to the parent's concerns on a relationship issue, and (3) the relationship appears to be very harmful, and potentially with rather permanent consequences?</p>

<p>In other words, what is the parent's role, and what are the responsibilities and obligations when the child is really now an adult, but, making terrible choices?</p>

<p>If one of you had an adult child, junior in college, who was being physically abused, you would almost certainly intervene to the extend permissible by law and to whatever extent the relationship could tolerate. </p>

<p>This isn't a matter of physical abuse, but rather a matter of negative influence that is so - in my opinion - severe - that the impact to my daughter's future cannot really even be measured. </p>

<p>Background is that daughter has always shown excellent judgement in choice of friends, from preschool all the way through entering college. I know and like all of her friends; many of them have been close since kindergarten, and remain so. She is also an excellent to average student in a hard science major, and a D-1 athlete, very socially outgoing, very well liked by all age groups. In our single parent home, she has also always been very conservative with money, and even opened investment accounts with her high school graduation gifts - and has monitored the growth of those accounts very carefully. </p>

<p>With dates, she has always had a steady supply of young men calling, and has dated often, never terribly seriously, and consistently saying she would not consider marriage until after med school...we had a great relationship, and I always counseled her to let gentlemen ask her out, don't pursue them, and I have always taken time to talk to her about male-female relationships. My own dating style is sort of like "The Rules", etc. Oh, and "The Book of Fear" referenced in the original thread? I read it two years ago, and gave it to her to read, and she loved it, and passed it on to her friends. I have invested considerable time educating her on unhealthy relationships: how to recognize them, what to do about them, etc. I have liked all of the young men she has dated during high school; only one or two of them I found sort of questionable, but they only lasted for one or two dates. </p>

<p>Fast forward to Easter break of her sophomore year. Home for a short three day break, a certain young man who lives in our home town began calling her. He'd met her the summer between freshman and sophomore year, when she was at a party with other friends. For purposes of the thread I'll call him "Fred", no offense intended to anyone here whose name is really Fred.</p>

<p>He called her on Easter Sunday to say that his father was coming to spend the day with him, but he told his father not to come, because he wanted to do something with her. She declined, saying that she was spending the day with me: Easter is a family day. I'm guessing this led to her explaining what we do on Easter Sunday, and the next thing I knew, daughter was feeling very sad - apparently Fred told her he'd never been to a church service before, his parents never took him to such things, he felt deprived, could she take him to a church? Bottom line, daughter, who tends to get a bit St. Francis, spent Easter Sunday calling around to try to find a church service to take him to, so that he could experience church. Happily for me she didn't find one, but, it put a damper on my day, because she felt so upset for him. </p>

<p>This was my introduction to the new relationship, and I immediately offered that I felt that was a poor way for the young man to treat his own father on Easter Sunday. </p>

<p>The next time he surfaced, he traveled to daughter's college and stayed with her for nearly a week - during her midterm exams. She barely made passing grades on any of the exams, owing to not studying, owing to spending time with him, since he was visiting, and I'm guessing also staying in her dorm room. He also went to all of her classes with her. I almost lost my mind when I heard this: daughter is majoring in a hard science; she receives merit scholarship with a minimum gpa requirement to hold the scholarships; she wants to go to med school, where one cannot get accepted anywhere with less than a 3.6 or so - anyway - I explained to her (calmly) that if the young man truly cared for her, he would want her to be successful in school, and get excellent grades, and he would NOT be distracting her from her studies, and he would NOT impose himself on her during mid-terms! I added, of course, that she needed to care enough about her future to set boundaries and not allow this: socialize if she wishes, but not during a time when studying is so critical. </p>

<p>She came home for the summer, and it was a rather miserable summer - we spent perhaps three or four evenings together the entire break. Each time, he called constantly, to the point where I felt as if I were being stalked.</p>

<p>Somehow, between her mid terms and the end of school, he moved out of his own dorm room, and got a studio apartment right next door to the athletic facility where she does her summer workout program, which is also just adjacent to the same place where she works - the same part time job for the past four years. Then, he invited her over, and made it easy for her to have a fast place to shower and change, check email, etc. between workouts and work. Then, he got her involved in his social scene - which led her to start spending the night at his place - most nights in fact - because it was "easier" for her, after a night out, to sleep at his place so that she could go direcftly to her workout the next morning, and to work after. </p>

<p>Oversimplified, I did try to get to know him, had him over for dinner - it was sort of like being in a room with a cartoon. He talks incesstantly. I don't quite understand him, or his own family relationships - there are so many discrepancies in the stories I've been told that I cannot figure out any of it - I don't know if this young man is a struggling college student who is merely madly in love, or what.</p>

<p>For example, he works three jobs because his parents will not give him any money for college. Yet, his parents - both divorced and remarried - are building custom homes. And he has loans. And he's only 20. So the financial issues don't add up. He needs the three jobs because he has no money, yet, he always seems to have ample money - and time - to take my daughter to very expensive places - overnight visits to theme parks, lots of various outings, etc. </p>

<p>He has ADD or something like it, and will not take medication, but is graduating this year from his college with a 3.8 (English major). His parents will not help him with anything, and his Christmas was so miserable that he called my daughter crying because he received very poor gifts, compared to his sister who received very expensive gifts, yet, his parents seem to give him lots of money for other things. </p>

<p>Daughter and I had a few spririted discussions on the matter over the summer. I told her it was totally o.k. to have a relationship with Fred - but what concerned me was that her entire life seemed to be all about Fred - during a stage in her life where there should also be Bobs, Marks, Steves, Jeffs, and also Marys, Susans, etc. And where, I asked her, were all of her lifelong friends - the friends of many years from high school? Why wasn't she spending any time with her friends any more? She was pursuing her own interests less and less, and even missing a lot of her workouts and practice sessions - mostly because she would be out late with him, and oversleep. Her response was always that she was on her summer break, and merely having fun. </p>

<p>Momsdream, you posted something similar - the money my daughter earned from her summer job, the money that she normally saves and uses during the school year? It was all gone, spent on whatever she did with Fred all summer. </p>

<p>His parents got into it all too - they started having her over for lunches and dinners, or inviting her to events. I was never invited to any of the lunches or dinners and have never met them. Daughter told me the pressure is really relentless during these events - they all think that she's going to be a doctor some day, and therefore will be a great "catch" for Fred, so the campaign is on to get them closer to a marriage situation. This is a strange scenario too though - apparently, when the parents divorced, the father got Fred, and the mother got the daughter, a now 13 year old. The father has not seen the daughter in over seven years, since the divorce, and, Fred had not seen his sister or mother since the divorce. I don't know why. These people all live here in our home city.</p>

2

<p>This fall, she returned to campus, and I thought that the situation might auto-correct - I hoped that she would get back into her school life, and he would fade away. Didn't happen. My first clue was the cell phone bill. I don't normally analyze the phone bill, but the first one to arrive in the mail caught me by surprise, as the envelope was huge - very thick, we have never received such a thick phone bill, and we've had the same shared plan for many years. I opened it, thinking I'd see a bill for hundreds of dollars, and immediately could see why it was so thick. He calls her an average of five to twelve times a day. Every day. Of course, each call reports as a line item on the bill, hence the thickness of the bill. But what was equally astonishing was the total absence of anyone else in her life. A person's cell phone bill tells a lot about them, and there are virtually no other calls from anyone else - some from me, and a few from teammates, but these are very brief calls - obviously logistical, not social. I have to admit that she calls him back almost as often as he calls her.</p>

<p>She came home for Thanksgiving, and I discussed this with her, in as non-confrontational a manner as I could muster. I told her that this was not healthy, and that the problem wasn't Fred - the issue is that there doesn't seem to be any other substance in her life, and it's not healthy for one person to consume so much of another's time, when there are no other people in the person's social circle. I told her again - as I told her over the summer - that he appears to be very emotionally needy and desperate, and immature. I cannot remember what she said to this, except something about he calls a lot, and she blows him off a lot, because she is so busy. She admits that he is very immature, but says he's "fun". </p>

<p>I invited him over for brunch on the Sunday following Thanksgiving; I drove daughter to airport, after everyone said their goodbyes. He actually followed us all the way to the airport parking garage - tailed right behind our car - the entire way. Even though it was in the complete opposite direction of his own home. </p>

<p>Christmas was the same or worse. And the calls continue - he is still calling her up to twelve times a day, as early as 5:00 a.m., and as late as - well, into the morning hours. </p>

<p>I do realize that this is not about Fred - it's about my daughter, and the choices she is making for herself. But this isn't the same daughter I sent to college. And she's regressing emotionally since her involvement with him. She was actually more mature when she graduated from high school. Her grades are slipping, her focus is off, her ambition is diluted, and she's overly tired. Even her sense of self worth is degrading - I can see it and feel it. And of course, all the time tied up with him, she isn't getting into the building of her new life, isn't taking advantage of all the resources and opportunities on her campus, isn't forming new relationships with healthy people, isn't moving forward with the transition into adulthood. </p>

<p>And this Fred is like - well, like a one-man cult. He is relentless. He cries to daughter about how terribly unfair and cruel his parents are, and how badly they treat him - no church in his life, bad presents and Christmas - and she feels sorry for him. The two times I've been around him, he actually comes across as credible, believable. But then, they're offering to buy him new cars, he always has lots of money and time, he has a new problem emerging - both sets of parents want to give him lavish graduation parties at their custom built new homes, and he cannot choose one set without upsetting the other, which he manages to dress up and trot out as a huge problem. The overwhelming, consistent message daughter gets from Fred is that parents - all of them - are BAD. </p>

<p>My question, at the end of this long post - is - what can a parent of a 21-year old - do? Or not do? Daughter has been asking for help establishing her own apartment off campus. Of course, I am not comfortable with this. Fred graduates this spring, he has no particular reason to continue living in this city, and I have no doubt that if daughter had her own apartment he'll one way or another be living there (and I'd be contributing financially).</p>

<p>I cannot really abandon my support, and responsibilities to her. But then it seems that I cannot continue to be an avenue of support without also supporting this "relationship". In the case of the desired apartment off campus, Fred will surely rush right over and move in. But the other side of it is, does anyone think the off-campus apartment (and similar support issues) could be the leverage of liberation that might help my daughter see her way out of this situation?</p>

3

<ol>
<li><p>I am wondering whether the boyfriend may have a mental health problem such as being bipolar. I know you said he says he's ADHD, but his problems seem more serious than that.</p></li>
<li><p>I do not think it's a good idea to fund an apartment for your D. If she wants one, let her fund one for herself, which will give her an excellent chance to see how irresponsible her boyfriend is. Her living on campus does put some boundaries on her relationship with him, and also means that she still has contact with other friends. A fear that I have is that if she moves into her own place, he will isolate her from her friends and that could lead to other problems.</p></li>
<li><p>I strongly suggest that you get guidance from a licensed psychologist or social worker. Understandably, you are under much stress and it's very difficult for you to know what to do. Having an experienced professional to discuss your concerns with could help a great deal.</p></li>
</ol>

4

<p>Oh heck...what a situation! </p>

<ol>
<li><p>My gut instinct would be to get her out of dodge, create some distance that might make the heart forgetful. I would not support a move to an apartment, but I would support a trip to Europe, a month with Auntie Annie in San Francisco or semester abroad etc, basically anything that might give her enough space to evaluate the relationship.</p></li>
<li><p>Secondly, I question the huge disconnect. This guy sounds like such a baby, it's hard to imagine that such a serious girl would put up with the tears. Does he look like Jude Law? :) </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Where are her girlfriends? The other adults in her life? Aren't they making snide remarks? Have you talked to them? I've had my S's friend over to dinner and had big heart to hearts with them about needy, high-maintenance girlfriends (who often ring incessantly during meals). </p>

<p>Some kids take a left turn, but your daughter is doing a 180. Not that she cannot turn around again but--why the 180 now? What went wrong at college? Why isn't she meeting the best friends of her life? Maybe the school isn't a good fit?</p>

<p>And where is her dad? What is the relationship there? What does he think about Fred? If he hasn't met him, maybe he should. Is there something in your D's relationship with her father that would make her blind to Fred's faults? </p>

<p>How long were you married? Does your D know any longstanding happy marriages? Would those couples be open to a dinner party with Fred? The more she sees him in 'normal' contexts, the more she may realize that he would not be the ideal spouse for a physician.</p>

5

<p>I agree with everything Northstarmom said. I thing you daughter is involved with a man who is seriously ill and is admitting to refusing treatment (meds). In situations like this there is nothing anyone can do or say to help this young man. Usually court involvement is required and proper treatment needs to be mandated by a judge against Fred’s will.</p>

<p>Your daughter is in the middle of this mess and she probably thinks she can help him. She is actually doing the opposite. She is making it easier for him to go without the treatment he needs.</p>

<p>I feel very sorry about you being in this situation. This is much easier said than done, but the best thing for you to do is to not support the relationship in any way. I would also consider withdrawing all financial support from daughter until her grades improve. You can't tell her not to see Fred, that won't help. But you can insist that she focus on her studies if you are to continue to provide her with financial support. The apartment should be out of the question.</p>

<p>Your daughter may be upset with you at first, or she may feel relieved she has a way out of this relationship. She certainly will be grateful to you down the road. Good Luck!</p>

6

<p>Mandated drugs for ADD? Get her out of town? Am I missing something here. This is an intelligent 21 year old. Nothing I read sounds too unusual. He calls her a lot, she sleeps over, he visits and hangs out. All pretty typical. This is a smart, accomplished 21 year old. 21 folks. I think latetoschool will really jeopardize her relationship with her daughter if she doesn't back off. We get 18 years of input and then they get to use their own judgement. If she's making a mistake have faith that she has the stuff to catch herself. But I'm hearing a bit of a Mom who misses having her time with the daughter and wants more input than is appropriate in a 21 year old's life.</p>

7

<p>Northstarmom, thanks for that, but, can you tell me what you mean by his problems? Do you have any idea what I might be dealing with? This young man seems incredibly accomplished in terms of his ability to manipulate others. Even me. </p>

<p>For example, this Christmas, suddenly, three large gifts appeared under my tree. To me, from him. I've met him twice. I didn't know what to do or say. It's well beyond anything in my experience of 45 years to have gifts under my tree from someone I do not know, and furthermore do not care for from what little I know of the person. What to do? I wanted to come here and post for advice then, but couldn't bring myself to write a post saying "how do I refuse gifts from a college student who works three jobs" etc. </p>

<p>Not having any idea at all what to do, and after trying unsuccessfully explain to D that it is inappropriate to force gifts on someone a person does not know, that I was very uncomfortable with the gifts, I just ignored them for as long as I could. Ultimately, D put pressure on me, saying "he spent money that he worked hard for" and "I will take money out of my saving to reimburse him" and "he just very badly wants you to like him" and "he had such a terrible Christmas he was actually sobbing" etc. Finally I felt so bad - I felt as if I was hurting a smaller, weaker person - that - I spent an appropriate amount of money for a gift card at the book store where his college orders text, and gave it to daughter to wrap and give to him. And, I finally opened his gifts (candles) on the very last morning when she returned to campus and we were taking the tree down, etc. </p>

<p>Should have ended there, but of course it didn't. She gave hm the gift card, which prompted this elegant, flowing thank you note from him, tell me all about how much he appreciated it, what he bought with it, etc. And with a p.s. - did I like the candles? Where of course I immediately felt terrible, since it's policy in our house that no gift is used, or money spent, until the thank you note is sent. So of course I dashed him off a thank you note. </p>

<p>So against my every intention, I am involved in a gift and note writing exchange with this person, which of course will only encourage him. </p>

<p>In my own (adult) relationships, I have no problem at being firm and clear. For example, if this had been an adult gentleman trying to date ME, I would have immediately rejected the Christmas gift in the first place, and I would have made it very clear that the attention was unwanted, and that such actions would not be tolerated.</p>

<p>The difference here is that this is a 20 year old young man, who has been presented to me as someone who worked three jobs to buy a gift for me because he "very badly wants to be liked", and in spite of myself I keep feeling sorry for him. And if I keep falling for it, what must it be like for my D, who is far more soft-hearted?</p>

<p>I agree with you re the apartment - but the other side of it is this: here is a young woman who needs to be out and involved in the larger city of her college community. She needs to be out getting interships and jobs, and making connections. She needs to get moving along the path to becoming a fully functional adult. Should I really make a decision to restrain her - all because of Fred? That means that I am allowing Fred to dictate the direction of our decisions. But it's impossible to see any fault with your thoughts - I agree, at least on campus there are other people, and some restrictions - he can visit the dorms, but he cannot live there. </p>

<p>Re a psychologist, I don't disagree, but am very short on time. I did go to see our priest over the summer, we discussed this issue at some length. He did actually probably prevent a total family communication breakdown. D doesn't know I went to see him on this issue. He was absolutely shocked though as he has known her for years, and the person I described to him in our discussions is not the young lady that has been so active in the parish for many years. He also suggested counseling, but for her, and of course she doesn't see a problem here.</p>

8

<p>Just call me Been There, Done That - from your D's perspective (I'm 23).</p>

<p>Does ANY of this sound familiar?
1. A push for a quick involvement: Comes on very strong, claiming, "I’ve never felt loved like this by anyone." An Abuser pressures the woman for an exclusive commitment almost immediately.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Jealousy: Excessively possessive; calls constantly or visits unexpectedly: prevents you from going to work because ‘you might meet someone;" checks the mileage on your car.</p></li>
<li><p>Controlling: Interrogates you intensely (especially if you’re late) about whom you talked to, and where you were; keeps all the money.</p></li>
<li><p>Unrealistic expectations: Expects you to be the perfect woman and meet his every need.</p></li>
<li><p>Isolation: Tries to cut you off from family and friends; accuses people who are your supporters of "causing trouble."</p></li>
<li><p>Blames others for problems and mistakes: The boss, it’s always someone else’s fault if anything goes wrong.</p></li>
<li><p>Makes everyone else responsible for his feelings: The abuser says, "You make me angry instead of, "I am angry’ or, "You’re hurting me by not doing what I tell you." Less obvious is the claim "You make me happy."</p></li>
<li><p>Hypersensitivity: Is easily insulted, claiming that his feelings are hurt when he is really mad. He’ll rant about the injustice of things that are just part of life.</p></li>
<li><p>Cruelty to animals and to children: Kills or punishes animals brutally. Also may expect children to do things that are far beyond their ability (whips a 3-year-old for wetting a diaper) or may tease them until they cry.</p></li>
<li><p>"Playful" use of force during sex: Enjoys throwing you down or holding you down against your will during sex; says he &is the idea of rape exciting.</p></li>
<li><p>Verbal abuse: Constantly criticizes you, or says blatantly cruel, hurtful things; degrades, curses, calls you ugly names. This may also involve sleep deprivation, waking you up with relentless verbal abuse.</p></li>
<li><p>Rigid sex roles: Expects you to serve, obey and remain at home</p></li>
<li><p>Sudden mood swings: Switches from sweetly loving to explosively violent in a trotter of minutes or even more confusing, within seconds.</p></li>
<li><p>Past battering: Admits hitting women in the past, but says they made him do it or the situation brought in on.</p></li>
<li><p>Threats of violence: Makes statements like, "I’ll break your neck," or "I’ll kill you" and then dismisses them with, "Everybody talks that way," or "I didn’t really mean it." If he has come this far, it is time to get help and get out!</p>

<hr></li>
</ol>

<p>I've skimmed through your posts and I think I can see a handful of them in there. Everything is someone else's fault; the guilt is being heaped on your D; there aren't Marks or Jasons or Brads, it's just Fred; isolating your D rom old friends and family. 3-4 of those are definite warning signs. Oh, yes, and the constant calling? That's a problem. The invasion of her dorm during her mid-years? That's not ADD - that's manipulation and control. He's trying to assert himself as being more important than her school work. </p>

<p>While you've certainly done a great job being open with your D, I think that you (and many other people) think that abusive = physical violence. It doesn't start that way. In fact, it starts off entirely innocuously, then gets steadily worse. It can escalate into violence, stalking, and harassment. </p>

<p>Frankly, from what you've read, I'll go ahead and say that the relationship IS abusive - mentally and emotionally, perhaps sexually. </p>

<p>So, how to get your D out of this? Wish I knew the magic words... absent that, I'll give you some idea of what I went through and a few ideas of things to try.</p>

<p>I was under a tremendous amount of pressure. I was an engineering major, taking uber-hard courses (as in 'the deans were in awe of my schedule' hard)... and he was always over (he was in high school). Always calling. Always mad if I wasn't here. Angry when I wanted to do homework. Resentful of the time I spent with friends. I had no time, fell behind, was miserable, stressed, and felt like a moron. It seemed like i lacked the ability to properly communicate - because I had said so many times that I needed to work, but he wouldn't listen and just made fun of me for it. So, when other people got on my case - I got angry at them. Mostly, it was because I knew that I couldn't please everyone, and I was breaking my back trying to please him (because I thought that it was all my problem, not his) and stop him from being angry at me. Also, it had the side effect of making me really defensive: that "I'm just not good enough for anyone but I'm working my butt off to be good" feeling. </p>

<p>Sound familiar? Think you're at the other end of that? Read on. </p>

<p>In some ways, though, I really wished that someone would step in and just tell it like it is. I can't imagine how nice it would have been for someone to say "This is not your problem: HE is the problem. Nothing you do is going to be good enough - his issues are about control and insecurity, not about your actions. This isn't healthy, this isn't right, and you deserve better than this." No waffling, no shying away from the real issue, no quabbling about peripheral issues. His behaviour was controlling and abusive - and it's not my fault. Likewise - it's NOT your daughter's fault. She didn't ask for this, and she probably never saw it coming. As such, do not (repeat, do not) treat her or imply to her that she is doing something wrong. She tolerates this from him because he makes her feel horribly guilty otherwise. She feels horrible about the grades on her mid-years. Why make her feel worse? Don't lecture her, don't berate her, and don't complain about all that she is doing wrong. She knows - she's a bright young woman. My guess is that she's doing the best she can, trying to balance him, his guilt, his garbage, and he expectations of herself.</p>

<p>Getting her out 101: Wish I knew. As I said, don't berate her, and don't lecture her. If it's possible, I would suggest getting her home for a weekend, such as President's Day. Take the cell, and cart her off to someplace else (family members would be fine). No cell, no email. No forwarding phone number. Home is a no-go because Fred knows the phone number. Just three days where Fred can't talk to her, harass her, and call all the (bleep) time. Require that she see a psychologist - no college funding, at all, otherwise. Tell her, UNEQUIVOLCALLY, that you love her and are there for her. Tell her that she's smart, caring, etc - because I guarantee that Fred isn't saying that. No lectures, no "I told you so," nothing but unconditional caring and love. Fred is relentless - you aren't going to get her back unless you are equally as relentless. (FYI: my dad got the abusive stalker - yes, he stalked me when I broke up with him - away by threatening to kill him. May I suggest male figures are also good?) Get men involved - any brothers who are close, uncles, grandfathers - who can repeat that this is NOT how men should treat women. </p>

<p>Guy friends are also good (although my guess is that Fred is giving your D a lot of grief about all friends, esp. the guys), as they can really stand up for her. Shift your perspective: your daughter isn't doing anything wrong. She's also not capable, on her own, of getting out of this. Think of an abusive relationship as like AIDS (in terms of a mechanism - no melodrama here): it survives by attacking the very things which would ordinarily serve to eradicate it (white blood cells/self-esteem). </p>

<p>Enough ranting. Talk to a counselor yourself - it might be good to understand all that is happening here.</p>

9

<p>Kirmum, if all of the other evidence wasn't enough, it is simply weird to call someone eight to twelve times a day, every day, for months on end. Sorry, but that's completely weird, and no where near typical. I simply do not believe that heathly young gentlemen do that. </p>

<p>Also, healthly young man who are seniors in college do not sob opening because their Christmas presents didn't meet expectations. </p>

<p>There isn't any "backing off" for me to do. This man is in my life, on my phone, everywhere I go. Driving to the airport, he's right behind me in traffic, all the way, uninvited. Dinner with D, he's on the phone, and she says "I have to answer - if I don't he'll keep calling".</p>

<p>Sorry, there's nothing typical here.</p>

10

<p>P.S. Reading through other posts - LOVE the idea of Europe or whatever. Get him away from her! I broke up with the b/f a few days after coming home for winter break. The stress, guilt, and exhaustion was still there, even though college wasn't. It was a big wake-up that the relationship, not college or me, was the problem. </p>

<p>Ugh! He does not have ADD. You are not too involved. If your daughter is <strong>changing</strong>* for a guy, worry. If you are paying the tuition, you have a right to dictate basic academic standards. She won't become an adult with Fred - he, not you, is inhibiting her. </p>

<p>Read the thing about your priest. Have him talk to her, in private. Again, no guilt, no pressure on her. Just make it happen. It will be good for her to talk to someone who has known her for a long time - she can see how far she's come from the happy, confident, successful young lady she was before Fred. She'll start to be in the right mental place to get away from him once she realizes how much she's changed for him and that it isn't going to get better (because he is the problem).</p>

11

<p>I guess I'm weird then too, I talk to boyfriend 8-12 times most days! Late, much of what you describe is typical of young love. Girls often abandon other friends for new relationships. Hopefully, it's just temporary, but how many of us have not watched a girlfriend in love go off to nest with boyfriend for a time? They want to share their every thought via cell and text messege. Mom's no longer get the time of day. </p>

<p>She's a big girl. If she doesn't want him calling she can tell him. She may well just have different standards for what's acceptable than you do. Clearly you are a rules girl, she may well not be and that's OK.</p>

<p>The boy works three jobs. He's in school. He tries hard to be liked. I see nothing here of ariesathena's situation. So maybe he's emotionally labile. But there are many worse things than a hard working, educated guy who doesn't take Ritilin! Relax and put some trust in your daughter. You said the priest prevented a communication breakdown. I can only imagine. You will hurt your relationship with your daughter and probably drive her right into his arms if you're not careful. Children change when they leave home. She is exploring and figuring out her adult values. She is bound not to be the same girl you sent off. Trust that you gave her a good foundation and let her do her thing.</p>

12

<p>Aries, in your relationship you knew you had a problem. This girl doesn't seem to think there is a problem. Where is any sign of abuse of any sort?</p>

13

<p>Great post by ariesathena - she's absolutely right about the hardball approach. Your daughter is in deep trouble and it will take extereme methods to help her to get out of this situation. She needs to understand that none of this is her fault, but she does need to get out. I agree that this is an abusive relationship, and that Fred probably has a serious psychiatric disorder, not ADD.</p>

14

<p>Kirmum: It took me a while to realize that I had a problem. There really weren't many external signs (i.e. that other people would see) - just things like him (forcibly) spending too much time with me, getting angry over little things, being competitive with me, calling all the freakin' time and getting MAD when I wasn't there, and the like. He was actually on decent behaviour in front of other people and had forbidden me to talk to people about our relationship. </p>

<p>I must say that mostly MEN figured out that there was a problem. Women, for some reason, thought he just really cared (ha, ha). I think that men tend to compare his behaviour with theirs and come up with the fact that they treat women better and don't act like that; women compare MY behaviour and reactions with theirs and come up a) there is no problem; or b) I'm the problem, because this doesn't happen to them.</p>

15

<p>But Aries, the only similarity we have here is a lot of phone calls which I just don't think sounds like abuse. Trust me, I have seen many women in abusive relationships of all sorts. I just don't sense that here, I see a Mom who believes in "The Rules" offended by some very typical young love behavior. Late doen't speak of anger or jealousy or seem to feel her daughter feels controlled in any way.</p>

16

<p>Honestly, I think late has a very sweet old fashioned view of how a relationship should work. The boy does the pursuing. He doesn't present presents until an appropriate length of time has passed and so on. I would guess there was discomfort with all the sleepovers. She sees her daughter as a church going girl with those same values. My thinking is that daughter is just redefining her beliefs.</p>

17

<p>Latetoschool, Sounds like a very trying situation. Since the girl’s father doesn’t seem to be in your life, not having the other parent to talk to about her must make it doubly difficult for you.</p>

<p>Being pre-med and D1 athlete at a demanding school is grueling to say the least. Since your daughter’s main defense of this boy is that he’s “fun” maybe that’s what’s missing in her life: fun. It’s difficult to analyze without actually knowing the people involved but it seems to me that she may be leaning on this relationship as a way out of one of the stressful areas of her life. Most people do experience a period of rebellion some time in their lives. The teenage, young-adult years are the most common times for even perfect-so-far kids to challenge their families and they do it in as many ways as there are kids to drive us crazy. (Personally, I think this is much healthier than the forty year old with the mid-life crisis!)</p>

<p>The boy in question does sound weird, but not necessarily psychotic. Whether or not he’s dangerous to extent that you need to take drastic action like getting a restraining order or withdrawing your daughter from college, is not possible to tell from afar. You feel that he is not socially or emotionally normal and his presence is affecting your daughter negatively.</p>

<p>So maybe we have here is a perfect storm combination of a girl who’s looking for an emotional outlet and a boy who’s socially unbalanced. </p>

<p>Some questions:
Does she have roommates or other college friends whom you could contact for more information?
Is she at a large university or a small LAC? Do you know anything about their counseling facilities?
Do you have friends in your hometown who know this boy or his family that could give you some background?</p>

<p>I think you need an on-the-ground third party opinion here. Could be your priest or the school psychologist or a mutual friend, some one who knows both parties. It is impossible to judge whether you are under or over reacting. Both are potentially harmful.</p>

18

<p>Oh boy! Wow, this is very scary. He's laying major guilt trips on her - saying he told his dad not to come over on Easter?? Very manipulative. I think he's lying about much of it. Perhaps he is trying to "catch" your D (the future doctor) and is flipping back and forth between his own sad reality (from which she tries to save him - so he likes that) and what he <em>thinks</em> he should present to her as his life (as he deems approrpiate for the future husband of a doctor) i.e. both parents wanting to throw him lavish parties, which I suspect is a lie. </p>

<p>He works thee jobs and attends school? When does he see her? </p>

<p>I can totally relate to some of this - as you have read in my post about my situation with my son spending his cash on his GF....we also dealt with midterms recently and I had to turn her away one night when she decicded that he needed a sandwich while he was studying and she came over. Also, like your D, my son got the call on Christmas day with the crying about the presents from the parents - which, of course, was a segue to "can you come over now? I'm so upset! - it was 10am. Wow, these two stories sound so similar! </p>

<p>The part about Fred moving into a place next to her gym and work location is cause for alarm. The following in the car is downright scary. You may want to invite his mom out to lunch. This would serve a few purposes: 1. It would intimidate him because now you're bridging the gap and exposing any falsehoods 2. his mom would get the message that you are engaged and interested in what is going on with you D 3. you can get the scoop on what's up with him, if she'll talk. </p>

<p>You also might want to share your fears with your D and hand her a book that discusses controlling/abusive relationships. There are books that categorize abusers and can pinpoint things about his personality and their relationship that might raise a red flag for her. It's best for such information to come from books or other independent sources, rather than from you. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, I don't think you can do much more than to educate her about these things and to support her as she works through it. </p>

<p>Can you really look at a phone bill and see where the inbound calls came from? Mine just says "incoming call" on the line.</p>

19

<p>Kirmum, the combination of extreme manipulation and emotional pressure with destructive results is a series of yellow and red warning signs to me. This is not the profile of a couple just pulling the boundaries of the world tightly around themselves...which is icky and eye-rolling but common and most people grow out of it.</p>

<p>LTS, you've received several good suggestions. I'll turn and step on your toes, however: living by "The Rules" et alia is a manipulative and dishonest approach to life. And I think a woman should be as free as a man to initiate, or even pursue, if such is her choice. To circumscribe either party is to circumscribe both parties, cf. putting women on a pedestal. I'm sorry, because I feel awful about the situation you find your daughter in, but it's on my list of rants about What's Wrong With the World. The more choices women allow themselves, the more power they ultimately have.</p>

20

<p>Kirmum, not to sit in judgement, but I think it's totally weird to talk to the same person twelve times each day, every day. But aside from that - it might be a bit more tolerable if there were also, say, five calls a day from Bill, Mark, Steve, Mary, Susan, Jane, etc. But there aren't. Not any more.</p>

<p>Ariesathena, thank you for your post. I do see the similarities, and also I see my error - I have been blaming her for allowing this, for tolerating his behavior, for falling for his stories. I'm sort of a blunt person - it's in my DNA, and I have been very assertive in my criticism of him, and how he conducts himself, and I have put the responsibilitity on her. I have been very clear that she should not allow this. </p>

<p>There are so many similarities between what you posted, and the dynamics with Fred, it's shocking. </p>

<p>In one very telling incident - she was home over Christmas, we were dressing the tree, and decorating the house, which is a family event. We intentionally waiting until she could complete her semester exams and come home to do this. You can imagine how it was - we're pulling out the ornaments, having the hot chocolate, etc. He calls just as we're beginning to string the lights, with tickets to a theme park in another city - it's a very special, sudden surprise - and they must leave within the hour. He's coming to get her. </p>

<p>When I reacted by saying wait, this is a family evening, I thought we were doing our decorating, preparing for Christmas, why cannot they go to the theme park the next night, she reacted by saying she was tired of all the "pressure" from people wanting her to do things - "I get it from Fred, I get it from you" - that told me that he is pressuring her constantly, when she is at school. </p>

<p>It also frightened me that suddenly Fred equals me in stature in the social chain of commerce.</p>