Unhealthy Relationships, Version Two

[kirmum]

<p>I'm going to stop debating this unless we can get daughter to post her side!</p>

<p>I will answer your questions though late. When I began a serious relationship a year and a half ago, things did change in my life. Last night I was out with girlfriends who rightly accused me of joining them only because boyfriend is in India. I was often torn between spending time with my kids and my boyfriend at first. I loved romantic weekends away but felt guilty while on them. I'd slip out of work ealier than usual many evenings to catch a drink with him. Things change, something has to give. A relationship is another time committment that requires good managemen skills. Sounds like your daughter is struggling with this part now.</p>

[ariesathena]

<p>Kirmum: nope - he's moving in with her (at school), then getting the apartment near her work and gym. That concerns me - it's unilateral. </p>

<p>Sure, it could be a way for her to unload stress or whatever you think - but that doesn't make it healthy for either one. Check the list I posted earlier again, and tell me if you dont think things line up with it.</p>

<p>The "blame the D" strategy hasn't worked yet. Don't think it's suddenly going to work now. She does need help. I'm reluctant to pass it off as something benign when it could easily be something quite severe. So much easier for the D (and everyone else) to pretend that it's stress or whatever. </p>

<p>JMmom: So? It's still wrong - phone should be off during class! No calls! That means her and him!</p>

<p>Enough arguing though... let's agree:
1. The D needs to see a psychologist. Now. No ifs ands or buts.<br>
2. This relationship is not mature. 16 year olds act like that; not adults. Healthy relationships don't involve a simultaneous GPA crash.
3. Fred has a few problems.</p>

[latetoschool]

<p>Ariesathena, there is no way D will ever get to a psychologist. For one thing, she will not see a problem. For another, her schedule cannot accomodate one during the school year, and, for the rest of this year, I cannot make her, as I have no leverage. </p>

<p>I'm curious about something though - what do you think was the achilles heel, or fracture that allowed your abuser in? Was there some thing or issue that made you vulnerable at that time? </p>

<p>JM - cell phone is off in class. I see all the calls on the bill however, even if they just go to voicemail. </p>

<p>Kirkmum, when I'm in a healthy relationship, my other relationships IMPROVE. I don't feel guilty at dividing myself, but rather thrilled to be able to share and enrich my life, and the lives of other persons important to me. Any relationship that results in a person to feeling "torn" is probably not quite right, sorry.</p>

<p>If D could post her side, she would say something like "he's just fun. I'm having fun."</p>

[momsdream]

<p>"I don't mean to be snide or rude or condescending (as I truly respect all of the parents here), but... are you familiar with the psychology of an abusive relationship?"</p>

<p>Aries, I am more familiar than anyone would want to be and luckily I was able to get myself into a program to to uncover some of the deep rooted issues that bound me to this person for a couple of years. </p>

<p>I hid it from everyone. The only people who knew were my parents and a co-worker/friend who was smart enough to know that car accidents don't produce fingerprints on your face....and told me so! I was rising in my career and I was young (23). He came into my life like a speeding bullet without warning - and was relentless in his pursuit. </p>

<p>He would show up at my new employer's parking lot and wait to see who I went to lunch with. When he didn't see me going out with men he accused me of being a lesbian because I was having lunch with women. He would freak out whenever I went on a business trip - more accusations. He would wake me in the middle of the night to question me about this or that - keeping me up til all hours. </p>

<p>At first it wasn't a physical problem......it was just unpredictable. All the while, early on, I thought he was just very emotional -and that his insecurity was a sign of caring. Then, almost a year into it we had this argument in the car after attending one of my office funtions and he was jealous about something silly - he said something I didn't like and I said something back that made him angry and he punched me in the eye so hard thay my eye immediately swelled and turned colors. I was so shocked that I immediately tried to jump out of the car (we were in the city on a crowded street going slowly) and he told me that he wouldn't let me go until my eye healed - and off he went on a four hour drive not letting me out - with me really angry and yelling at him and telling him how stupid he was for doing that to me and I would see him rot in jail (I was clueless about how dangerous these guys are)- he kept getting more angry and eventually pulled over and started to stangle and suffocate me, pushing my head back between the seats on onto floor of the back of the car - I tried to kick out the windshield and he got nervous and stopped long enough for me to jump out - someone called the police and he was locked up on 6 different charges - including kidnapping. </p>

<p>You woudl think it would have stopped there, but it didn't. He convinced me to go to court and ask for leniency for him, which I did. He was sentenced to mandatory counseling with a therapist who specializes in batterers. We reunited. He then tried to suffocate me on another occasion (this is when I got the fingerprints on my face). </p>

<p>I called his therapist, who told me that this guy is a psychopath - and one of the most dangerous people he had ever met - and that I was in significant danger and should come see him. I went to see the therapist, who gave me the name and number of a woman who could help me "get out". He told me that I had to be very careful and couldn't just drop this guy or I would probably end up seriously hurt, at minimum. </p>

<p>I called the lady, who was running a program in Philadelphia called "Women in Transition". I went through the program - made a plan to end the relationship, carefully - made a clean break a few months later after laying careful groundwork. The only thing I left him with was the receipt for my new Smith and Wesson .38 special and a copy of my license to carry. </p>

<p>I also learned what brought me to it, kept me in it...and learned how to stay away from people like this forever. I have a protection from abuse order that gets renewed whenever it expires. </p>

<p>So, back to my original point and in answer to your question: I do know something about it, I'm sorry to report.</p>

[latetoschool]

<p>Momsdream, what strikes me in your post is "...he came into my life like a speeding bullet...he was relentless...."</p>

<p>That's how Fred is. He's relentless. It's not just the summer or the cell phone bills - when I am with my daughter, he is constantly calling, wanting to know what we are doing. Or the alternative - he works at a place where there are public events and the alternative is that he calls with tickets to events - "come right now". </p>

<p>I have told my daughter "I feel as if I am being stalked. Must he call, constantly, obsessively, to learn every detail of what we are doing...". She usually responds that he's usually not like that, that it just appears that way to me because she is home on break. So I then respond with the issue of the cell phone bills, all the calls, which of course she explains that it appears he calls a lot because she "blows him off so much". </p>

<p>Once, last summer, when we did do dinner and a movie, he called right before dinner, right after, right before the movie, right after the movie - a total of five times during our evening. I did the obvious - told her she didn't have to answer...and she said something like "he'll just keep calling", to which I said "that's inappropriate; no gentleman should be calling you constantly when you are on an outing", which of course deteriorated into "you just don't like him"...and so on.</p>

<p>I don't mean to intrude, and I appreciate your insight, but may I please ask you something about what led you into your situation? What was it that caused you to allow this man into your space, your life?</p>

[momrath]

<p>I’m turning my computer off now. When I tune-in in 18 hours or so I’m sure you will have received mountains of advice. I empathize deeply with you, but feel that the opinions of complete strangers are not what you need in this situation. Your daughter may be in a threatening relationship. She may be merely exerting her independence. Either way, she is 21 years old and out of your direct control. She can choose her friends. </p>

<p>If you continue to try to control her – what she studies, whom she dates, how she conducts herself – you run the risk of completely alienating her. You simply have to step back so that she can continue to feel comfortable talking to you. You simply have to accept that she may not be there for your family holidays and traditions. </p>

<p>Whether this guy is nutso and dangerous or just a smart, overactive kid with a troubled family background, is impossible for us to say. You’ve tried to get your daughter to see it your way and give him up or at least add others to her social circle. She seems unwilling to tell you black-and-white, no way, mom, but in fact, for two years now that’s exactly what she’s been telling you. She’s made her decision. If you force her to choose you or him, you may be devastated by the result.</p>

<p>My suggestion would be to contact her college’s counseling service and make an appointment for the two of you. Of course she has time to see a counselor. She may not want to do this but time is not the issue here. Does she go to an LAC or a large university? This is an important question because anti-social behavior can get lost at big colleges; it is noticed by everyone at small colleges. Does she have a roommate or any female friend at school? If yes, ask your daughter if you could all three talk together.</p>

<p>Secondly, I would start talking about your daughter’s summer plans. Can she go abroad, get an internship, a research project in another state? Don’t focus on separating her from her boyfriend. Focus on her doing something productive and fun. Another summer at home would lead to world war three. College kids keep weird hours. (Yes, they do go out at 2:00 a.m.!) Personally, I think the current obsession with cellphones and instant messaging is an enormous waste of time but it is a fact of life in America today: kids keep in touch. The phones are in constant use.</p>

<p>Third, I would advise her to slow down a bit. Maybe take some time off to work after getting her BS. She sounds like she needs some stress release, fast, and this “fun” guy has become her white knight. </p>

<p>Fourth, and this may be the hardest, I'd invite Fred and your daughter for a social event in a neutral environment like a dinner on campus, so that you can observe how they interact and so that your daughter can see how he treats you. </p>

<p>Good luck to you. You sound like you have a wonderful daughter and it's heartbreaking to see talented, smart young people making bad decisions. Unfortunately, it happens to the best of us and in most cases we grow up eventually.</p>

[calmom]

<p>I agree with Aries... there are all the telltale signs of an abuser. However, I don't think you can do much about it, at least the way you are approaching it, because your daughter doesn't see the relationship as a problem, and claims she is in control and having fun. An abusive relationship is all about having control ... and as long as your daughter thinks she is in control, then she is not going to see the relationship as a problem. </p>

<p>I do think you are on the wrong track when you tell your daughter what she or Fred "should" do ("a gentleman would never...." or "you should be spending time with other friends".) In the first place, if it was merely a case of bad manners, immaturity, or failing to observe proper social protocols -- it wouldn't be a problem - so it detracts from and reframes the issue when you talk about it that way. The <em>problem</em> is the obsessive, stalking-like behavior. </p>

<p>Secondly, your daughter's choices or conduct is not the issue. It is possible to be in a perfectly healthy relationship in which a couple spend almost all of their time together and have few outside friendships. That part by itself isn't worrisome; what is worrisome is the deliberate sabatoge of your daughter's time with family. </p>

<p>Since your daughter doesn't think there's a problem, there is nothing you can force her to do. What you can do is recognize - and assert - the areas where it HAS become a problem for you. You don't want this guy following you in your car; you don't want him calling your house incessantly; and you don't want constant interruptions from him when you are with your daughter. So tell daughter to tell Fred that you have asked him not to follow you or call your house repeatedly; get caller ID for your home phone and call blocking service, or use voicemail to screen all calls; ask your daughter to turn OFF her cell phone when she is on outings with you. And for important family occasions, tell your daughter that you don't want her running off in the middle to attend some event. If you frame the issue in terms of YOUR needs (YOU don't want to be disturbed; YOU don't want the limited time you have with your daughter interrupted) ... your daughter really has nothing to argue with you about. Also .... if all of the cell phone calls are to/from Fred .... and you don't like it ... why are YOU paying for your daughter to have a cell phone? I realize that the cell phone bill is your one window into what's happening.... but it seems to me that you are also supplying Fred with an easy way to constantly harass your daughter.</p>

[ariesathena]

<p>Momsdream... may I offer an e-hug? </p>

<p>Your fourth paragraph sounds like a good description of my relationship - which was hellish itself. Yours - so much worse. Hugs.</p>

<p>To all - (if you don't mind, Momsdream) - I was mostly referring to the fact that bad relationships with abusers or potential abusers just get worse. It starts off well, gets bad, and never gets better. After a while, your internal defenses are gone (which is why I say that abuse is like AIDS - it just chips away at the things which should help you in such situations - family, friends, your life - anything that grounds you), and you are more vulnerable. </p>

<p>Late: the Achilles heal (such a good way of putting it) was a combination of things. First relationship ever. It started right before I went to college, so I was generally vulnerable: leaving home, starting over, and, most importantly, leaving the safety net of girl friends (though we were all fairly close to our hometown, it's not the same). Stress in college - I was taking organic chem among other things (which, as a freshman, is rough, but do-able). Fear of academic failure: I was hitting the place where, instead of acing a test without studying, I could work hard and pull in a C - another weakness. </p>

<p>I know this sounds weird, but I think people like that use your good characteristics against you. I tend to be non-judgmental and forgiving - boy, did that work against me. Big time. Integrity - he would tell me things, or do things, then swear me to secrecy. Strength - and the fear that strong women just aren't attractive - he made me feel dumb for asserting myself. </p>

<p>Any fear, insecurity, or chink in the armor becomes a way for someone like that to exert control. In the best of relationships, you can reveal your weaknesses - and know that the other person won't judge you for it, won't use it against you, and is there to help you improve as a person. Under the guise of the latter, the other two happen, and it's rough. </p>

<p>It was really when I was back in a familiar environment (home for winter break) that I was able to see how much our relationship had detiorated, and how much... well... how much he really kicked the stuffing out of me. It was a side-by-side comparision - happy and confident four months before, instead of tense, irritable, and under horrible pressure. I also realized that there was no pleasing him, that he was unreasonable, adn that it was never getting better. (He then stalked me, which is another story.)</p>

[momsdream]

<p>LTS-
What led me to the emotional abuse was not the same things that allowed me to tolerate the physical end for that brief, but enlightening time. </p>

<p>The emotional aspect was tolerated becuse I was raised by a mother who had her own personality disorder. Growing up, everything was always a little "intense". We (my brother and I - and my dad)walked on eggshells much of the time. She was always on the edge of some kind of fit about something - usually something that wouldn't bother other people. Everything and everyone was a problem and she would overreact. I made a vow to be a very different parent....making careful note of how I felt when she overreacted or acted out - my brother and I were adopted as babies- so there was no worry of me physically inheriting any of these characteristics and I was good at mentally separating myself from her and reminding myself that although this is where I wound up, it really wasn't part of who I was or what I had come from, or even where I belonged. I've been the complete opposite with my kids...maybe to an extreme - but it's my way of ensuring that I leave that uselss crap behind. I love her dealry. But she was not a good mom - not all moms are. My dad was very passive. And I now believe that this is part of why my son tolerates his GF and her issues, as he is very close to his grandparents and much of this behavior continues in their home. </p>

<p>That is why I tolerated the power and control over me - because I had learned to from her outbursts and unstable emotions - and because it felt normal to me. I knew it was bad...but it didn't feel different enough for me to walk away - I had no idea how to erect boundaires and shut people down - I just knew how to shut them out of my head - but not phycially remove them from my life.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the physical abuse was something that I had never experienced. I wasn't hit or spanked as a child. But, when this guy did hit me, he then (as most of them do) apologized and made ten thousand excuses and promises, eventually crying on my shoulder and telling me of his own mother's much more severe mental illness and eventual suicide - which was true. Alas, the pity. I felt so badly for him. I wanted to save him and change him. The usual story of rescuer. When he did it the second time I decided that I wanted out. In addition, he was a textbook narcissist. Those guys are really hard to pick out without proper education. I can now smell them coming! </p>

<p>The time I spent in that program was life-altering. There were all sorts of women coming in for our weekly meetings - poor women, suburban housewives, executives, women from other countries, older women. What I took away about how that program really helps is that we all develop our own "reality"...and we adjust it to make it fit our situations. I knew I was being abused and I was calling it "abuse"....and I had become pretty comfortable with that term and what it meant. But, I never peeled it back to see what another perspective might be. And the woman who ran the program, after hearing me describe the suffocation incident said "honey, he's not abusing you - he's trying to KILL you!". - and hearing that was like being shaken awake after a long sleep. But, LTS, I don't think I could have heard that from a family member close to the situation. I needed to hear it from a professional with no skin in the game. </p>

<p>This is why I suggested that you get her a book if you think she's being controlled. She may file it away on the shelf. But, if she's in a bad spot, she'll pull it out when she needs it. </p>

<p>Don't be afraid to talk about these things. It's more common than most people believe and the women (and men) who make it through and come out ok have an obligation to speak out and help others. The very unfortuante things that statistics show that MOST don't make it out.</p>

[ariesathena]

<p>"This is why I suggested that you get her a book if you think she's being controlled. She may file it away on the shelf. But, if she's in a bad spot, she'll pull it out when she needs it."</p>

<p>Brava!</p>

<p>Weird as it sounds, seeing (in print) the 15 signs of an abusive relationship really helped me to articulate all of the vague problems I had been having. It was hanging around under my bed, mingling with dust bunnies - a relic of a high school health class. When I saw it (right around the time I broke up with him, can't remember exactly), it helped. Anyway - good suggestion. </p>

<p>Also, I'm with Calmom. "Whoever frames the issue wins the debate."</p>

[momsdream]

<p>Thanks for the hug aries. I think a high five is more appropriate here. I don't feel at all like I need support in this light. I also don't look at this like it was a really big deal - maybe it was - but I'm never really in the mood to discuss it and prefer to look ahead. It was a long time ago - in so many ways. I recalled this chapter of my life because it might help here. I'm now going to tuck it back where it was - in the book of lessons that momsdream leaned the VERY hard way :)</p>

<p>Aries, glad you made it out ok! Don't let that happen again!! :) Keep your life clear of the clutter - people clutter.</p>

[latetoschool]

<p>I created this thread tonight because events became suddenly more ominous this week. Early January, she returned to campus. Mandatory team workouts, started some days earlier than regular classes. I knew he was going to follow her to campus and stay with her there for six days, because I saw it on her computer screen when she asked me to look at a program. I didn't say anything about it, or mention that I saw it. In a twisted sense, I thought this was a good thing, because he would be around her peers, and surely someone in the lot would tell her what they thought of him. They would observe his bahavior and surely someone would speak up and say something. He does odd things, such as chew on forks during meals, etc. He also talks constantly. It's seriously like being in a room with a cartoon. </p>

<p>Anyway, the six days passed. I know he was there because I can see from the cell phone log and the calls stopped during those six days, then the same pattern emerges on day seven. </p>

<p>Beginning of this week (Monday) D sent email asking for money - the team outing to a large amusement part was scheduled for this weekend, she needed $100 for lodging and food. Knowing the team does this every year, and very willing to support teambuilding activities, I happily transfered the money over. I also had a comfort level knowing that the destination was only about a three hour drive from campus, so I thought that perhaps not too much homework would be neglected. Also, it's the only weekend the coach allows off from practice. </p>

<p>Tuesday, she was traveling - she also holds a student government office and the college flies her out of state about once a month. She called me from her connection airport, and said something like this: "great news! I have a surprise for you, and the good news is, you've already paid for it." </p>

<p>Turns out the good news is that instead of going to the planned activity with her team, a small section of her team broke off from the others. They are coming here, to our home city, this weekend, to go to a smaller, lessor known amusement park. For two days. Oh and would I like to maybe meet them for breakfast one morning? Oh, and by the way, they'll be staying the weekend with Fred. He called and invited them. And he has enough sleeping bags and space to accomodate the ten team members in his studio apartment.</p>

<p>I wonder if you can imagine my shock. I was driving when she said all of this, and, not liking the mix of driving, cells phones, and troubling conversations, I said "I'm driving right now, let me call you back". </p>

<p>That gave me some time to recover, and, 15 minutes later, I called her back. I told her that this was not the activity I agreed to fund, and that I was disappointed. I told her I would not have funded a weekend that is a twelve hour drive (round trip) from campus, and certainly not a weekend at Fred's. What I heard in response was a long twisted explanation of how the team wanted to do one thing, but other members decided they didn't like the tradition, and Fred called, and - well....</p>

<p>I then said, why not have the team members stay here - it's a 3/2 house! She said that Fred's house is close to the activities that they want to do here. The call didn't end well; I just said thanks, she said "do you need anything else" - I said no, thanks, and that was it - we both hung up. </p>

<p>The next (and last) thing to happen is that she called me at close to 1:00 a.m. Wednesday to let me know she arrived safely in her hotel room - she didn't reach me, reached my voice mail.</p>

<p>I haven't heard from her since. I am guessing she is in our city this weekend. I don't know. She has not called, or even sent email. I have not called her, because - well, I typically wait for her to call me, unless I have a specific reason for needing to call. This has been our pattern since freshman year. What I do know is that it is highly unusual for her to misdirect our resources. She has always been extremely responsible and very conservative with money. Never, ever before has she mismanaged money, or ask me for money that went to something very different. Again, very different behavior. In addition, there is nothing to pay for, except food and gas, if she did come here for the weekend. Unless Fred now charges rent. The activities they were going to do are all free, and she is a member - with an annual pass - of the smaller park that they were going to attend. It's so very strange that my D may be here in our city, with friends, but not in our home, and that I have not heard from her. </p>

<p>Calmom, I do like your advice, that'll actually work perfectly for me. It is MY issue. I don't like this, and simply do not want to put up with it any more. It's horrible, and it's annoying. And it's creepy to be followed around - the airport issue surprised her even. I keep paying for a cell phone because shutting it off would treat the symptom, not the problem. This doesn't get solved until SHE decides to end it. But your advice thankfully is very good, because it will at least liberate ME from this nonsense, which I just about cannot stand any more. </p>

<p>Momsdream and Ariesathena, I will definitely get her such a book. The thing is, I could have sworn I'd already covered all this stuff with her...</p>

[latetoschool]

<p>Momsdream and Ariesathena, thank you both very much for giving me so much of your time, and especially for sharing your stories. I sincerely appreciate it and am grateful for your sharing. </p>

<p>It seems as if by the time a person sees their own relationship emerge in portions of the list of warning signs, they're already in the quicksand, and will need help getting out.</p>

<p>Is there any one thing, or series of things a person can do (male or female) to protect against getting even close to this type of a situation?</p>

<p>And last question, do either of you see anything here that tells you that my daughter's situation could lean towards physical abuse? I know that it's hard to diagnose these things over the internet, but, I'd really like to know your thoughts.</p>

[calmom]

<p>One book I found helpful is the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize it and How to Respond", by Patricia Evans - and this book does give some insight as to the kind of patterns that are more likely to escalate to violence. Also, it explains various patterns of manipulative behavior that may not seem like "abuse" but is part of the overall pattern -- things like left-handed compliments or subtle put downs. </p>

<p>A book with a title like that is NOT going to be read or appreciated by your daughter unless and until she thinks she has a problem ... but I think the first step might be to educate yourself so that you have a better sense of what is going on. I say that because some of the issues that are upsetting you really are red flags for abuse -- but some, like using the $100 for a changed plan -- are really more trivial. I mean, it would be one thing if your daughter gave up the team trip entirely and used the $100 to fund a weekend alone with Fred ... but instead she seems to be bringing a large crowd with her ... so your complaint in that situation is not really about Fred, it's that your daughter isn't spending the money in the way you want.</p>

<p>I also think you really do have to examine your own personal issues and separate them out from the Fred issues. Your daughter is 21 and you are supporting her, and the way you are supporting her includes directly funding things like the team trip. When I was in college, my parents supported me by paying tuition directly, sending me a monthly check, and paying airfare home. What I did with my monthly check was my business - it was meant to cover my rent, food, and incidentals - but I didn't have to account for it. On the other hand, absent an emergency, I didn't get any more. When my son was in college I sent him -0-. I sent a check to the college to cover tuition and housing; everything else, other than plane fare home, came from his own savings. So it's hard for me to relate to the whole $100 fiasco.... maybe now that your daughter is 21 it's time to cut the apron strings a little in terms of money, and quit being mom-the-ATM. That way of dispersing money leads inevitably to more conflict - part of the reason your d. may be happy to spend the weekend with Fred is that she perceives YOU as the one doing the controlling.</p>

<p>Not all relationships that have an element of emotional or verbal abuse escalate into threats or violence -- and the world is full of old married couples who have settled into simply accepting the status quo of relationships that aren't at all healthy (such as the way Momsdream described her neurotic mother and passive father). Some people probably crave those type of relationships, actually -- maybe because it fills an inner need. That is, there are probably women who enjoy and are flattered having a man who seems slavishly devoted to them. From what you say - your daughter has an active life - she is involved with her team activities and student government -- so she may not see herself as the "victim" in this relationship -- she may see herself as the one who is using Fred and not the other way around. </p>

<p>You can't really do anything about the daughter-Fred relationship when daughter doesn't want your help and doesn't want things to change. You CAN do a lot about the mom-daughter relationship, and with a 21-year-old it is probably time to take the relationship to a different level.</p>

[latetoschool]

<p>Calmom, you're right about the money. I usually DON'T give her this type of money during the school year. </p>

<p>She has worked the same summer job for the last two three years. Freshman and sophomore year she saved over $2,500; this was her spending money during the school year, as well as her book money. Each year she has managed to make it all last, and even have a bit left over. </p>

<p>This past summer, the summer job money for junior year all disappeared - a good $3,000 + - got spent as it was earned, during her time with Fred. </p>

<p>The impact of the loss of book money got lost though as her college picked up all the remaining expenses not covered by academic scholarships with athletic funds. </p>

<p>I have been resolute in not covering the loss and giving her money - and she hasn't asked for any - until this request, because of the way it was presented to me as being "the annual team trip". I thought I was supporting something much more structured, and with 100% participation, because that's what was presented to me. Instead, it's another weekend with Fred, and only a few teammates. Perhaps.</p>

[jmmom]

<p>Clarification re "GPA crash"? The GPA issues does worry me, and I have not read every word here, since many posts are v,v long. She did not do well on her midterms. Do we have other info on GPA before/during?</p>

[searchingavalon]

<p>I agree absolutely with everything Ariesathena has written. Latetoschool, you might want to--quickly--get a copy of Saving Beauty from the Beast, which is about the type of abusive relationship your daughter is, in my opinion, experiencing. And for others to say that the daughter is allowing this and welcoming that, and that therefore she is not being abused, that is off the point. That's what abusers do--they control and manipulate their victims so that it seems as if the victims are collaborating in the destruction of their own lives. Just about everything the o.p. wrote is a classic sign of an emotionally abusive relationship. The only thing that is missing is that you haven't said that he is criticizing or belittling her, but if her self-esteem is plunging, it could very well be taking place when you are not around.</p>

<p>There are other books out there as well--I own but have not read "What Parents Need to know about Dating Violence," by Barrie Levy and Patricia Occhiuzzo Giggans. I think that the best thing to do is to get your daughter to agree to counseling. I wish you the best.</p>

[emeraldkity4]

<p>couple things
go to a therapist.
You do not need both people in a relationship to get professional advice, obviously you are very concerned about your daughter- but she is an adult albeit a young one- a therapist can give you space to be heard so that you don't come off so strong when you are around her.
Trust that you raised her to do the right thing for her. Unless it is a dangerous relationship and needs immediate intervention, I would give her space to decide if it is working for her or not. By trying to exert too much influence in direction of relationship, could very well push her the way you don't want her to go.
It is hard to give advice other than for you, because we are only hearing one side , does she have a father? What are his thoughts?</p>

[backhandgrip]

<p>Agee with you Emerald.
Well, my feeling is, that if it is going to happen, make sure there is a wedding. The laws are set up to protect the female if there is a divorce. Everything is much more shady and debatable if they simply live together. Plus there is the fun of planning a wedding, even if it is on the beach. And everything takes a logical sequence if there is a wedding. Just think it is the appropriate way to go.</p>

[kirmum]

<p>Momsdream, you hit on a very important point. Those who live with abuse do so for a reason. Usually that reason is because it's familiar to them, they grew up with this. Another key reason is low self esteem. Strong, secure females are not victims here. So the first question I would ask myself in assessing a situation such as this is whether the persom fits into one of those categories.</p>