<p>Berurah, your son sounds very special particularly in the depth and passion of his research. But with HPY and company, it really is a crapshoot. The rec from his research mentor should have been a nice hook, and I think that Hopkins would be interested in the work your son has been doing. Where is he with the rest of his apps? Are they done and ready to go? I think his choices are sound, but mainly reaches, and I would recommend 5 solid middle of the road choices out of what has been suggested here to augment what he has. That Michigan app is a nasty one by the way; it was the one that caught us off guard completely since we thought that as a state app it would be a piece of cake. If it's just about done, get the thing out quickly. </p>
<p>The other suggestion I have is if you feel that there may be a problem with the GC's rec, you might want to schedule a meeting with your school principal. In some schools when you want to do a post mortem on a process, the principal will review the entire file, including the GC's rec especially if you ask him to do so to get his personal and highly revered opinion on your son's file. I would not breathe a word of any suspicions about the rec. Just that you want his input on what may help your son to get into the other very competitive schools where he is applying. When this was done one year in Mamaroneck school district, the principal found that the GC's rec was for the wrong person. The matter was quickly solved and the student did get into Cornell after a number of denials which prompted the request for help. Jay Mathews in an earlier book of his, the name I cannot remember, related this story, and it was famous in Westchester where I once lived. </p>
<p>One other issue about a number of the schools suggested; your son should visit them. Demonstrated interest is an important issue in schools like Emory, Wash U, Tulane (they have been more selective this year after a big year last year). With Stanford and Yale, not a whole lot of courting needs to be done. My son did not even visit HPY as he was too busy attending to those schools where the visit/interview/ audition were essential. It is going to be a tight schedule for him. He sounds like a catch for whatever school that is lucky enough to get him, but this process is a real bear for anyone.</p>
<p>Recommendations are not worthless if your S sees them. The GC, teachers, etc. have no obligation, however to see your son. It is wise for your son to check on application forms that he will not insist on his right to see his reccs. If the recommenders, however, decide to show him their letters, that is perfectly fine.</p>
<p>It's also very important for your S to give the GC and other recommenders supporting info. S's GC requests an autobiographical essay, activities list, and any other info the students think would be helpful. This helps her write an appropriate recommendation.</p>
<p>If your S's GC does not require this (and many GC's don't), it would not be overly forward for your S to give such info to the GC. Even if your S is in a small school, the GC is unlikely to know or remember every detail of his activities, particularly his ECs and passions. The autobiographical essay, resume, activities list, even a copy of the letter from the doctor, all could help the GC write a strong recc for your S.</p>
<p>berurah, I would not be so dismissive of Tulanr just because it is in New Orleans. My son is a freshman there this year, on a full tuition academic scholarship. He finds the classes challenging, the profs. friendly and approachable, and opportunities endless.</p>
<p>Like your son, he was deferred ED from an Ivy. He applied, and was accepted at many of the schools that have been suggested by others on this board. In the end, he chose Tulane, and when asked at dinner tonoght by a family friend if he was happy with his choice, he responded even more affirmatively that I could have believed.</p>
<p>And, yes, New Orleans is a crazy town. But, I live in a college town and the drinking at our state Flagship school is not greater than what I see and hear of at Tulane. The only real differnce I have noted between N,O. and our town is that the only real ID the bars require in N.O. is the one with Washington's face on it.</p>
<p>A story about gc recs. I'm surprised to hear that there are schools where students can see their recs. - it's strictly forbidden in our h.s. A couple years ago the gc office accidentally sent their rec. to the student's home. The parent opened the letter, read the less than glowing rec (for a very hard working, sweet, not absolute top but decent student who was also an URM) and went to the superintendent. Super. reportedly drove over to the h.s. to tell g.c. that "we were not in the business of giving bad letters of recommendation. If you can't write a positive one, give it to someone who can" or words to that effect. It was chilling to people who learned about it - why in the world would a g.c. sabotage a student's application?</p>
<p>intersteddad & jamimom have made excellent suggestions about broadening the range of the applications to include less competitive schools...Emory, Michigan,etc. reject qualified kids.....Wash U particularly wait lists.....for pre-med in the South consider Vandy, Wake and Tulane....although even these are not a slam dunk.</p>
<p>Re: feeling like a failure....I think it's great to be disappointed from time to time!! How else can you learn that pain is survivable? Rejection letters are minor compared to the big pains that ultimately touch us all. I was rejected by half the med schools I applied to including my first choices - at UC SanFran the letter even beat me home after the interview! My fiance cried and then dumped me! What a week...</p>
<p>Also I believe mini pointed out that if med school is a likely goal there is no need to go to an elite school. The bottom line is to excel whereever you go. A stellar record at Kansas is superior to a mediocre transcript from Duke.</p>
<p>Not on anyone's radar but some of the better students from around here (Alabama) go to Georgia's Honor program...well regarded in the South and merit morey available.</p>
<p>The GC's rec is supposed to be an the GC's honest appraisal of the student and of how the school views him. If all recs are glowing, and from what I understand, it is coming to this point, they are worthless. If there are doubts and issues about a student, it is up to the GC to point them out, but it should be a balanced picture. The problem is that many GCs cannot write well, and what comes out is a bland, vanilla say nothing rec which adds nothing to the app. But colleges are used to that. But an outright bad rec would sabotage an application. I do know that our school writes very thorough recs for each kid, which sometimes is not to the advantage of a student. In a large, impersonal school, it is possible to somewhat manipulate the rec by providing a resume and some "cheat sheets" to the overworked GC who more often than not will go by what is given because it is the quick and easy thing to do. I always recommend the kids I work with to put those together and give to the GC junior year to write a rec. A GC often cannot abdicate this responsibility of writing recs because the whole purpose is to have one consistent person or a limited number on people write the school recs (when there are more than one GC) The teachers' recs are hand picked by the student so they should be very good. So the GC straddles an uncomfortable fence. If the principal is asked to come to help go over the student's file and comes across an bad rec from the GC, he would ask the GC about it. He would most likely not come right out and tell you what the problem with the file is but would maybe say that there are some things that he feels makes the student's choices a real stretch. If something does not seem to add up, and if the private consensus between the GC and principal is that it has to stand, then there really is nothing the student can do this year. Less selective schools is really the only solution because if you have signed away your right to see the rec, then you are not entitled to see it.</p>
<p>Berurah,I understand your sense of panic, and isn't it great you are getting all of these suggestions for great additional schools at various levels of selectivity?</p>
<p>But I also wouldn't telegraph a sense of despair to your son (I'm not saying you're doing that, but suddenly loading him with lots of new apps to file may send that message). It won't help his spirits much, and from your description I think he has a shot at some of the reaches. I don't think I would conclude too much from the Yale rejection, since as far as I can tell from what I read on these boards last year and this, Yale is currently admitting about 4 new students per year. I have always thought of Yale as the most selective school in the country. (Now, don't no one jump all over me about that highly subjective impression)....</p>
<p>Best of luck, hugs to you/your son, and I bet this time next year, you are going to have lots of excited stories about how engaged your son is at his school, in research, etc.</p>
<p>I will respond to these wonderful suggestions more fully as soon as I get the chance, but I did want to tell Patient that I have very much NOT displayed my sense of panic in front of my son. I think you are so right in that would be extremely counterproductive. In fact, I have tried to go to the other extreme in front of him, and he is taking a day or two from this entire process just to hang with friends and such and regroup before finals. The whole reason I started this thread was to explore whether or not we wanted to expand our list and to see what these great parents thought might be appropriate given our situation. I definitely do not see the point of expanding his application list exponentially! <em>lol</em> ~berurah
P.S. I come HERE to panic precisely so I don't do it in front of him! <em>l</em></p>
<p>Think about common application schools as adds (most LACs are common app) because there will be fewer essays to write and less hassle with teacher recs (they can just xerox them). If I was in your place I would do all the apps he already has in mind plus two reach/matches & two match/safetys from the common app list.</p>
<p>LACs are not for everyone, however, most kids and their families with LAC experience swear by them. Atlhough my son is not involved in the sciences, many of his classmates are and they say Williams undergraduate research facilities for are second to none, including the ivies and big research universities. Again, this is not my area of expertise, but I believe several other LACs could make the same claim. For sure, kids who graduate from top LACs do very well in medical and law school as well as PhD admissions. </p>
<p>You know your son and youre probably be right when you say that your sons personality is more suited to a big university environment. Still, for balance, it wouldnt hurt to look further into what LACs can offer. I went to Michigan which I think is one of the worlds great universities, but I know now I would have been happier and received a lot more personal attention at an LAC. When we started the college search process, we knew nothing about anything and had never even heard of Williams (or many of the other fine LACs that ended up on my sons list.) </p>
<p>Id suggest that your son apply to one or two LACs Williams, Amherst or Pomona would be my suggestions. (Actually, one of my sons good friends turned down Yale for Pomona. It happens more than youd think.) Do some on line research. If he can visit between now and April he may have more options.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone has mentioned Rice. They have a great relationship with Baylor Med school, and in fact have an 8 year program where you spend 4 at Rice, then 4 at Baylor. But you must apply either early or interim decision. They also give a lot of merit money. Admissions are selective, but your son certainly looks to be within the range (or at the top of it) of the few students I know who are attending. </p>
<p>I second the Univ. of Georgia honors program too. I know a pre-med student in that program and he actually gets paid to go to school there, plus great research opportunities. Good luck</p>
<p>When, as a parent, your child is self-motivated to apply to a very selective school you try to assess the chances of success and support them if he/she
has the interest. The test scores show a young man that has the ability to compete. Figure in students of similar or somewhat lessor academic skills, but with athletic abilities...these schools and their alumni want winnig teams or
notable musical groups, etc. Layer in the legacy factor and perhaps a family
of wealth that, at the least, would have the ability to provide a gift to the school and the odds of getting in have gone down from the 1 in 20 applicants
that get accepted. You were right to support your child even if the odds were 1 in 50 because he is reaching. He's obviously intelligent enough to learn from this-it's never apparent when you're in the middle of a perceived negative life experience. My son was deferred and was very disappointed-most of the young adults that apply are top students and haven't had to deal with academic disappointment..but they will.</p>
<p>Northwestern, Duke, John Hopkins all have excellent medical schools and reputatons.</p>
<p>Hmmmmm......I will have to toss around with my son the idea of adding some LACs, particularly if they take the common app. which we completed for Yale and some others. I guess I have to plead plain ignorance of LACs in general. I know that many on CC have spoken highly of some of them, but I am SO unfamiliar with them. I grew up in Austin, TX and did my masters at U.T. So, I am accustomed to the big, bustling campus type thing (although it's pretty different as a grad student in terms of campus life and such). I just wish I hadn't been so sure of things earlier and had come and asked for this help a LONG time ago! ~berurah</p>
<p>I had never heard of RPI, so I followed your links. Wow! Very, very interesting. Thank you for giving those and I will spend some more time on their site and show it to my son. ~berurah</p>
<p>You are so right in that most of these kids haven't had to deal with "failure" very often. And you are also right in that he will learn from this. I know as parents we like to try and spare our children unnecessary pain, but we must also realize that we grow through each of these experiences. I have told my son that I have nothing but the utmost admiration of him (and all the kids on these boards) who are willing to take their chances and lay their psyches on the line for it. I am not sure I could have done that at his age. Thanks so much for your response. ~berurah</p>
<p>I think I had always associated Rice with more engineering/technical stuff. I know we tossed it around early on and even, I think, had his SAT scores sent there. I was born in Houston and raised in Austin, so Rice is a familiar name to me. My cousin graduated from there and now has a teaching position at Tulane (PhD in Math). I'll give it a second look. Thanks for posting! ~berurah</p>
<blockquote>
<p>My son decided at the outset that he wanted to try for some of the upper-tier schools. He is applying to Yale (an obvious bust), Stanford (I'll go out on a limb on the basis of Yale and call this one a bust too...)<<</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>It is a mistake to assume that because your son did not get into Yale that he has no chance at any other highly selective school. My science-minded D was rejected Yale EA last year and thought the same thing. By the time RD results came, she had been accepted to Stanford, Harvard and MIT. </p>
<p>I personally think that because Stanford has great biology, engineering and science programs (much more so than Yale), they are more on the lookout for great science-minded kids. I'm not saying that your son will get accepted by Stanford, but don't flush Stanford down the toilet just because of a YALE result. </p>
<p>As for feeling a failure as a parent, your job as parent was to help your kids reach high while being sure they maintained a safety net. I think the plan your son came up with is a good one that has done that. The elite grad schools have many students who chose to go to their state school for undergrad with the idea of reaching for an highly regarded grad program.</p>
<p>I would be very surprised if your son doesn't have at least one acceptance from his remaining list of Stanford, Cornell, UPenn, Brown, Duke, and JHU. Please let us know in April what his final results are. Until then, please stop beating yourself up over this. You are over-reacting.</p>