We are done licking our wounds...HELP!!!!

Parents Forum
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<p>Berurah, I came late to this thread and frankly, you have already gotten great feedback. </p>

<p>My feeling is that your son's college list is top heavy. I do NOT say that due to his stats (which are very good ones) and NOT because he did not get into Yale. I would have said this had you posted a few months ago regarding his list. I just can't see a list of all reach schools and then the state university. EVERY kid needs match/ballpark/realistic schools. I don't really see any on your son's list. As well, I think every kid needs safety schools that COULD be the state university if he likes that school but SHOULD be schools he truly likes as he may end up there. For a top student like your son, a safety school need not be a slouch school and might not be a safety for someone else but would be for your son (ie., Lehigh). So, I would add some match schools and one more safety. </p>

<p>Further, I would not view the rejection at Yale as indicative of his chances at his other reach schools. Odds at Yale are such that there is an element that follows less rhyme/reason and becomes like a crap shoot that is unpredictable. Thus a student can be rejected at Yale, but get into other Ivy or highly selective schools. So, keep the reaches as they are appropriate for you son's stats. You really need to add matches in particular though. </p>

<p>With due respect, I do not totally understand a comment you made earlier in the thread that you may be less inclined to pay tuition out of state if not in at his Ivy level schools. While going to a state school can be great (and honors college there might be a suitable choice for your son), it is not like he should have to go to his state univ. just because Ivy did not work out. There is far too much in between. However, my point now is that on the one hand, you are willing to find a way to pay for your son to go to an Ivy type college but otherwise, you would prefer to pay for state tuition. I am not saying go out on a limb financially as that is a personal choice but I can't see if you were willing to do that for the very top schools, isn't it also just as worth the ticket price for some other private schools? I can't see the difference, though I have seen others state a similar sentiment like yours with regard to this on the forum in the past. I can't see saying it is not worth tuition unless it is a top school. I would wrestle with if any school is worth the tuition but once you say yes for one school, I can't imagine not saying the same for another even if it is not as highly rated. </p>

<p>Others have mentioned schools to you and there are so many match schools out there and I do not know enough about his college selection criteria...but schools in the range of Washington U St Louis, Tufts University, Tulane, Emory, Claremont McKenna, William and Mary, Colby, Vassar, and so forth are worth looking at.</p>

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<p>Here are the adjectives, phrases in the OP-remarkable, passionate,voracious, 99th+ percentile, stunning recommendation, national qualified, renowned....! If, in fact, this is a legitimate post(which I doubt) he/she will be accepted into many colleges applied to. No additional advice is necessary!</p>

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<p>I'm so sorry...I don't understand your post. What would make you doubt its validity? ~berurah</p>

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<p>Susan,</p>

<p>I thank you for your post and for your excellent advice. I don't really know how to answer the part about the finance stuff, and I think that most likely, if I did try to explain it, you would probably disagree with me. I guess I am trying to look at the BIG picture. The picture that includes these things: the fact that I have five younger children and a child entering college every two years for the next many years (well, the last two are three years apart), the fact that my son has plans to go straight to grad school (either law or med school) after undergrad, the fact that my third one has already stated that she desires to become a pediatric oncologist (or another doc. who works specifically with children), the fact that there will be other home based needs--for example, we already have three through braces, but what about the next three? So, I am FORCED to be more pragmatic than some of you while still trying to do the best for my oldest son. We had pretty much agreed that if he got into one of his top choices, we'd do our very best to try and find a way to pull it off financially, but in the absence of that, he fully realizes our family's financial considerations, esp. with regard to what we are trying to accomplish for ALL of my kids. I am sorry if I made you think that any schools besides ivies were not worth paying for--that was really not my intention at ALL!!! It's just that in the absence of his STRONG desire to go there, I'd rather not spend the $. Hope that cleared it up. ~berurah</p>

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<p>Berurah, another short post...this time I've got to grab some zzzz's.</p>

<p>Regarding LAC's (everyone who knows me can skip this post): At the beginning of my D's search, all of us were focused on universities. TheMom has worked in UCLA adminstration for nearly 25 years, I'm a UC grad and that's what I was familiar with, and D was looking at places that on paper seemed pretty good for her: Yale, Georgetown, Columbia. </p>

<p>During junior year, we did a Boston-to-NYC trip, cramming in seven colleges in five days. The lightbulb began to go off for us when we visited Smith, an LAC (happens to be a womens college too but I don't think that has any bearing). </p>

<p>Contrast: D e-mailed the orchestra director at Columbia who replied, "Get into Columbia, come to the audition, then we can talk." At Smith, not only did the orchestra director set up a time to meet with D when we were there, but when they talked he invited her to come to rehearsal that night and sit with her section on stage while they rehearsed. <em>And every single interaction with Smith was like this.</em> We found a similar pattern (if not as pronounced) at Barnard and again at Wellesley. (D was looking for ballet, not necessarily a womens college...that's just how it sorted out...good ballet = womens colleges for the most part).</p>

<p>Smith's propaganda says "four years where it's all about you." Well, she earned a research assistant position for her first two years...and I believe that she's already got her name on a research paper, which isn't uncommon for those in the program. Smith guarantees every student a paid internship sometime in their four years. She's looking to split junior year between Washington, D.C. for Government and Budapest's national math institute for Math...too bad, this means passing up a semester with the Royal Shakespeare Company or Oxford. The student life part of the administration seems to be very responsive, academic advising is intimate and responsive, and if only 2-4 students want a class, they do their darnedest to make it work. Contrast after contrast with places like Columbia, Georgetown, and UCLA gave us pause and D wound up splitting her apps between HYS and four LAC's. If her criteria had been only slightly different, I could see her having added Amherst, Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, and Vassar to her list. (Not Williams...too remote and she's not a jock or outdoors-y.)</p>

<p>The top LAC's have very good records for admissions to professional and grad schools and students tend to get a <em>lot</em> of attention...small classes and no TA's.</p>

<p>They say no one is more enthusiastic than a convert....</p>

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<p>Beruah,
I understand where you are coming from in terms of the $. Check out Tulane and U Rochester, which have fabulous merit aid. Rice also is one of the best buys in education. Wisconsin may be affordable, too. I think its also known for strong sciences. Take a very close look at their scholarships because your son may be the type of student whom they're trying to recruit, too. Check out the merit and need-based aid at some of the other schools that have been mentioned. Your S's would be a very desireable candidate at many good places, and unless you're truly wealthy, since you have 5 other kids, my guess is he'd also qualify for need-based aid, possibly even with a 6-figure income.</p>

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<p>You've about converted ME!! What you have described sounds pretty near ideal! I really, really like the catering to the students' needs/desires part. I need to get some sleep, too, but hey, there's always tomorrow (or TODAY, if you're on central time!) <em>LOL</em> ~berurah</p>

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<p>Thanks sooooooooooooo much for that info. We are definitely not in the six-figure category, and won't be unless we win the lottery or something, which is a statistical impossibility given the fact that we do not buy lottery tickets <em>lol</em>. I'm just getting silly now....more tomorrow! ~berurah</p>

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<p>Berurah - lots of good advice here. The following offerings stand out to me:</p>

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<p>Editorial Comment: The HYPS + state school app list combo most often stems from one or all of these key factors: (1) these are the most most prestigious schools known to the student/family - HYPS (national prestige) and state school (local prestige); (2) practical realization of the high quality and low cost of many states' flagship universities, particularly in (but not limited to) the midwest. (3) lack of interest (by the student, parents, guidance counselor) in doing the work necessary to identify those schools just below the most selective and prestigious and then sorting out issues of fit.</p>

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<p>Bard College is recruiting "science" majors. Common App. Maybe someone else knows more about the program. Son is a musician, composer and loves film and politics. After looking at scholarship options, I realized it would have been better if he was a biologist. That is why I am writing to you. We visited the campus last summer and were impressed with the individual attention, friendliness and amount of internationals that we encountered in our two days there. Also, you would have to like the greenery and woods of the location, for us a great contrast to the arid mediterranean.</p>

<p><a href="http://inside.bard.edu/academic/programs/isrop/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://inside.bard.edu/academic/programs/isrop/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Also</p>

<p>Distinguished Scientist Scholars Program (DSS)* Each year 10 to 20 four-year scholarships up to full tuition are available for students who are committed to majoring in biology, chemistry, physics, computer science, or mathematics. Recipients of the scholarships also may receive a $1,500 stipend for summer research projects following their sophomore and junior years.</p>

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<p>Did you say anywhere what your son's SAT2 scores are? Those can make a difference at some of the high end schools.</p>

<p>I second the suggestion of RPI (where my husband went and where I know several current students)--but it is more about engineering than it is about pure science. U of Rochester is a strong science program choice.</p>

<p>What about the University of Chicago?</p>

<p>Bard and Reed are both very strong in undergrad research in the sciences, especially biology. (My sister got her master's in frog biology at Bard; my D is at Reed.)</p>

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<p>reidm--If only for the fact that you took a great deal of info. and sorted/organized it for me, I think I owe you some tickets! <em>lol</em> Seriously, though, I really appreciate the way you boiled it down for me. I couldn't even sleep what with all of the wonderful possibilites swirling around in my mind!</p>

<p>overseas--I thank you so much for posting. I guess I had never really realized that schools would recruit science types, I think because I had assumed pre-med types were a dime a dozen. I will definitely look into Bard. Your son sounds like a creative, interesting kind of guy! My son loves politics too! How is your son faring this year?</p>

<p>dmd77--after looking at the RPI site, I was thinking it looked more engineering/technical than pure science. I was really fascinated, though, because I had never even heard of it. Thanks so much for posting. You and overseas both seem to agree on Bard. How does your daugher like Reed?? ~berurah</p>

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<p>Berurah, He is done with his applications. Now just to wait. We will thoroughly enjoy this holiday!</p>

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<p>overseas, I am JEALOUS!!!!!!!!!!! <em>lol</em> I hope the spring brings all that your son could hope for! ~berurah</p>

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<p>Thanks, the same to everyone who endures this application season! Including admission folks. Most importantly, it's a stressful passage for the kids, that's for sure.</p>

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<p>Berurah - have you or your son ever visited Yale? Are you sure he'd be comfortable there? Are you sure YOU'D be comfortable having him there? </p>

<p>I grew up in New York City, and went to high school in Manhattan (two to four trains and a bus each way), at a time when the crime rate was about double what it is today. I felt perfectly comfortable and safe there - yes, bad things do happen in cities, and, yes, I got mugged once -- but on the whole the benefits of city life way outweighed whatever negative feelings we had. It was what I knew.</p>

<p>When we visited New Haven and Yale, I didn't feel particularly unsafe. My D., who has grown up in a capital city of 70,000, but is quite a naturalist and outdoors-type, didn't feel uncomfortable either - I doubt that she would have known what to look for. The crime rate in New Haven is very high, but that didn't put either of us off either. What DID put me off was the seeming paranoia of the students, the tour guides, the admissions office. They made a big point about every minute or so of pointing out the emergency blue buttons to call for help, the security at the gates, the streets to avoid, the fact that most students had almost no contact with the town outside of the famous pizza shops and that Yale had everything one could need internally - all of this thought to be a positive. I learned more about security on our visit than about the academic program. It was like they thought of themselves as being locked inside an armed camp. </p>

<p>Yale has lots of great things going for it - great student body (that's the best thing), famous faculty (all of whom teach, unlike at Harvard), wide and deep curricula choices, terrific financial aid (I'm told). They also have negatives too - some very large classes, lots of TAs, few or no research opportunities in the first two years, study abroad discouraged, and competition in music and theater areas with graduate students. (We also found it, in seeking contact with the music department, very impersonal.) And others might come up with a different list.</p>

<p>The point is NOT to put down Yale. The point is to note that pluses and minuses will exist at any college (I can make a list for the college my d. attends - Smith - as well). But the way you've described your son thus far, he could get a great education at hundreds of different schools - north, south, east, west -- large or small, warm or cold, state or private, urban or rural. (Would he be happy at Bard? great school? two hours from a major city, and 20 minutes from the nearest candy store? NYU - two hours from the nearest tree? (that's a joke.)</p>

<p>Your son needs to sit down and develop some criteria to rule out schools - otherwise we can lob about another 100 into the mix.</p>

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<p>mini,</p>

<p>Thanks for the very informative post. I have been mulling this over for a loooooooong time, since we started this process and I still can't seem to find any answers. I, myself, grew up in large cities. I was raised in Austin, TX, which at that time was a VERY small 350,000 people. But, then I moved around a bit with school and with my dh's job. I went to college in Miami, at the University of Miami. Then, back to Austin where I worked for awhile and then went back full time for a masters. Then, we moved to the Dallas/FW area, Orlando, FL, St. Louis, back to Dallas, and then to San Antonio. Finally we moved here (job related for my dh). So, you see, <em>I</em> am much more comfortable in large cities. I find the rich and varied culture appealing. And I HATE being under the microscope of a small town with its fairly prevalent tunnelvision, esp. in this area of the country.</p>

<p>BUT, my kids have mostly grown up in this area. Logan was almost five when we moved here, and so he really knows no other way. He is, however, the odd-man-out in his thinking and attitudes here, most probably from having been raised in our home by my dh and me. We do not subscribe to many of the local attitudes. So, in a way, I consider him more big-cityish, even though he can't remember living in one.</p>

<p>I do not shudder with fear at crime. When I lived in Miami for five years, the crime was terrible...there was even a machine-gun shootout at the mall I visited regularly, but still, I was not deterred from city life. It was all that I had known. BTW, a classmate of mine at Miami had a huge and ugly scar on her chest from a gunshot wound when someone shot into her car. UGH.</p>

<p>I do wonder, though, how my son would adapt. He is VERY adaptable. The only thing he DOESN'T want is a small rural area (e.g. Grinnell). He has had his share of that, and for very personal reasons which I cannot comfortably divulge on this board, I think he NEEDS a change.</p>

<p>No, we haven't visited Yale. We do not have the means for that type of travel for the sake of a hope and a prayer. You have some valid points in that we may have been misguided in the first place. Now, I will just have to see it that way--that all is ultimately for the best. I do know that he would probably have been <em>different</em> from a good many of the students, if only for SES/lifestyle issues. We had discussed this at length, but he still opted to try.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>hey berurah:
thanks for your kind words on the other thread.. and after reading this thread about how your son was interested in the sciences and law, his situation reminded me a lot of my own. i too, applied to yale because i thought i'd be an excellent match. i was a siemens-westinghouse research semifinalist (my project was based on nanotechnology/materials science) and basically all my life i'd wanted to be a doctor or some sort of medical researcher. my favorite book too, was the Hot Zone (richard preston, right?). but along with that i was seriously interested in the humanities.. journalism, mainly, but english as well. my second choices have become johns hopkins, stanford and northwestern.. hopefully april will bring promises of a better time.. i guess that's all we can do. :)</p>

<p>btw, I LOVE THE GIANT MICROBES. they're SO cute.. hahaha</p>

<p>-ann</p>

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<p>Wow, Ann!!</p>

<p>I don't believe that there's anything you CAN'T do, and now that I read this post, it casts more confusion as to why you would ever face a rejection from Yale! I think that's why I've had such a hard time. I am a logical person and this whole process DEFIES logic! Of course, it's a little like deciding a case when you haven't sat on a jury, I guess. I suppose I am missing half the info. that the admissions office gets.</p>

<p>You are right...the Hot Zone is by Richard Preston. I have it sitting right here beside my computer because that is where Logan left it a few weeks ago! <em>lol</em></p>

<p>I think it would be awesome, if a little far-fetched, if you and Logan ended up at the same school which APPRECIATES the unique interests and talents of you both! He is also applying to Stanford and JHU. And now, I think we will give Northwestern a look.</p>

<p>As I said in the other post, your brillliance and drive is matched by your kind heart and compassion. You will go far! fondly, ~berurah
Those microbes ARE cute, aren't they!??</p>

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<p>Berurah, I sent you a PM, not about LAC's...I promise.</p>