<p>TheDad--got it. ~b.</p>
<p>"Thanks for the very informative post. I have been mulling this over for a loooooooong time, since we started this process and I still can't seem to find any answers."</p>
<p>You don't need to. HE needs to.</p>
<p>BTW at Brown, my alma mater, interviewers are told point blank that Brown could easily admit DOUBLE the number of applicants that it does with NO reduction in standards, no less diversity, no fewer valedictorians, no fewer 1600's, etc.... I am certain that all highly selective schools are in the same situation.</p>
<p>The reason that a denial defies logic is that your kid can as easily be in the group that is admitted or the phantom 2nd group of equal worth that is not.</p>
<p>Due to this element of luck, every highly selective school is a reach for everyone.</p>
<p>Regarding Reed. Emeraldkity may also chime in about Reed. It's a very small undergrad LAC--about 1500 students. The have some unusual requirements, including a first-year humanities course in Latin and Greek civilization (Humanities 110). It's NOT for everyone; I'd say it's on the quirky side. My daughter loves the place and the people and is occasionally furious with the high academic demands. They expect a lot of their students and their 4-year graduation rate is lower than it should be, for the caliber of students they take--but that's partly because of their high standards and partly because they do take chances on some students during admissions. They require EVERY student to do a thesis.</p>
<p>"It was all that I had known. BTW, a classmate of mine at Miami had a huge and ugly scar on her chest from a gunshot wound when someone shot into her car. UGH."</p>
<p>Yeah, I know the scene. My roommate at Williams was murdered two blocks north of Harvard two years after graduation.</p>
<p>But this is off-topic. There are likely 200 colleges and universities in the U.S. that could serve your son well, and likely at least a score at which he could be extremely happy (I think that is true for virtually EVERY student.) Don't overestimate the prestige factor and underestimate the happiness one - a happy student is likely to be an engaged student and an academically successful one, more likely to succeed than one who is less happy at a school that offers the gift of prestige. You live in Kansas. What's the Stanford alumni network like? Or the Yale one?</p>
<p>Another thought for a university that's good in the biological sciences, but less selective than the reaches: Brandeis</p>
<p>Berurah - re-reading your original post, it's probably good for you to know that you aren't starting from square one. I'd expect your son to be admitted at Michigan, JHU and Cornell. Admission to one of the other schools would not be a huge surprise, either.</p>
<p>Also, attending a non-super-elite school doesn't hurt one's chances for an elite grad school. How and what a student does wherever he/she goes, plus the all-important LSAT etc. are the most important admission factors. </p>
<p>As for the tuition/value question, experiential purchases like college have the most subjective framework. If you (or your son) think the cost is worth it, it is. If you don't, it isn't. In this discussion, that's the easiest question to answer.</p>
<p>Finally, I'm happy to let Mini and The Dad do the heavy lifting on behalf of LACs, but count me in the camp that prefers them for most, but not all, students. And keep in mind that (for better or worse) most selective LACs are going to be dominated by students from cities and suburbs, and that is going to influence the culture more than the location/setting. That said, if I was doing this over I'd probably pick Pomona, Macalester, Trinity or a mid-size urban university over Grinnell. Of course I'd have to have a record like your son's to be able to do that and that is a whole different story.</p>
<p>Berurah, All I have to say--assuming you still feel a little bit this way--is that neither you nor your son is a failure. Not getting into Yale does not a failure make. As for you, I've been reading your posts on the Yale board--your generosity and your kindness are certainly not signs of a failure. You and the other parents and the kids on the Ivy boards who have expressed such caring for the ones who weren't admitted to their top choices are the portents that maybe the world isn't going to hell in a handbasket.</p>
<p>Top state PH schools are:</p>
<p>Berkeley, UCLA, both of whose app deadline has passed
UMass
UMich
UMinn
UNC-Chapel Hill
UT
W-Dub (Seattle)</p>
<p>numerous, other state schools have PH programs, but they aren't as highly regarded. </p>
<p>However, LAC's seem like a really good posibility. Med schools love kids who are liberal arts majors, or who double such as bio-english, or bio-philosophy. Your GC may have mentioned that med schools and law schools prefer a 'University' diploma. This is somewhat true in that the grad program would prefer a kid from a Univ of [insert state] over one from [insert state] state college. For example, in California, the UC's are much more prestigious than the Cal-State Universties. However, as has been pointed out previously, the more pretigious might not be the best fit for your family. Also, the top liberal arts colleges are perceived by grad programs and employers, for that matter, as similar in rigor to top state universities.</p>
<p>One more thing to consider -- some state U's have an extremely cut-throat nature, including rampant cheating and even sabotage of other work in lower-level science courses. Teamwork at some is non-existant.</p>
<p>searchingavalon: </p>
<p>My son and I are doing much better now, and I tend to think that I was in a place of desperation when I made the original post. I have been able to inject some perspective between then and now and things seem much different today, even if some of the <em>sting</em> is still there. I so appreciate your kind words about my posts on the yale board. I got so attached to those kids and I am still in contact with some, both those who were admitted and those who were deferred and rejected. I care for them all. ~berurah</p>
<p>mini,</p>
<p>"You don't need to. HE needs to."</p>
<p><em>LOL</em> Reminds me of the conversation that took place with my son's science teacher in 8th grade. We were discussing the possibility of his skipping the freshman year of chem/physics survey and going straight into bio. I said, "I'm not sure whether or not he will be doing that." at which point he said to me, "Well, that's HIS decision, not yours!" to which I replied, "The last time I looked, he was still a minor and I think I <em>do</em> have a say in this decision."</p>
<p>True, he is not going to be a minor much longer and true, he is an exceedingly capable almost-adult, and he will, in the end, have the final say in his college choice. But, even as a capable adult, <em>I</em> still ask for advice (hence this thread), and I still turn to those I love and trust for input. Please do not mistake my obvious interest in and devotion to my son as "overparenting". He will be the first to tell you that that is not my way. I do, however, see exactly what you were saying, and I appreciate the sentiment. </p>
<p>On another note, I was very sorry to hear about your Williams roommate of many years ago. How devastating.</p>
<p>We have virtually no Yale network here. My son was not afforded an interview because there was no one to do it. I am not sure about the Stanford network, though I wouldn't expect much more.</p>
<p>I see what you mean about the "happiness" factor vs. the prestige factor. I think it is an important distinction. The happiness factor is much more difficult to assess though--it requires the evaluation of a number of areas and some prioritizing.</p>
<p>Thanks, again, for all of your input. You have an incredible amount of knowledge.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>reidm~</p>
<p>Are you some type of instructor somewhere? If not,you SHOULD be! <em>LOL</em> I really like the way you express things.</p>
<p>I had never thought of the tuition/value question in quite that way. You are, of course, right on the mark (again!). Thank you for giving me the new way of trying to evaluate that question.</p>
<p>I brought up the idea of an LAC to my son this morning, and so far, he doesn't seem to be overly receptive. I, myself, have been converted through the efforts of you, TheDad, and mini, but as mini so eloquently pointed out, it is, ultimately, my son's decision. I do think that I need to present him with some more info. on specific ones.</p>
<p>Thanks for all of your support! ~berurah</p>
<p>Don't worry about the Stanford network and interviews. Stanford doesn't do interviews.</p>
<p>hey ellemenope,</p>
<p>Thanks! That's a relief! At least the playing field is level on that front. ~berurah</p>
<p>"We have virtually no Yale network here. My son was not afforded an interview because there was no one to do it. I am not sure about the Stanford network, though I wouldn't expect much more.."</p>
<p>My point was that the so-called "prestige" factors only carry weight in certain circles, and even then, not necessarily particularly far. I live in the state capital of a progressive state. A HYP degree will get you nowhere in particular - there is no alumni network of any kind to speak of, and the very few kids who go to HYP never return, so they have no track record in the employment market. It might make the first 30 seconds of an employment conversation, which would then quickly pass to "So what can you do for me?" (I wouldn't be surprised to see HYP grads actually passed over by employers in favor of just as qualified candidates from other schools, as a result of a residual of resentment by the employers at the fact that their own kids didn't get in.) More go to Stanford, the vast majority of whom are athletes. I myself hold degrees from Williams, Oxford U., and the Univ. of Chicago. NO ONE has ever heard of Williams, and on many occasions, people have mistook it for Whitman, which is great, because Whitman IS known here, has a splendid reputation, and a real alumni network. The Oxford thing is more a hindrance than anything - when they find out, people break out in phony English accents, which gets old very quickly, though it is made funnier by the fact that I maintain my New York one. Chicago is known among social workers - we actually do have a dozen or so UChicago social work grads working in state gov't, but that's about it.</p>
<p>I don't in the least think you are overparenting. It's just that you have presented him with many wonderful choices, and now he needs to find a way to whittle them down. </p>
<p>Things will work themselves out. Meanwhile, enjoy the next 8 months with your son - they won't last long!</p>
<p>Berurah, Well, I guess you learned that knowledgeable and compassionate parents have a lot of opinions! Its good that your son has an idea of what he wants. As I said LACs are not for everyone. My sons group of high school friends were fairly equally split between HYPSM, other large US universities, US LACs and international colleges. As far as I can tell the happiness quotient among the kids is also fairly evenly distributed, but (again I may be prejudiced here) the parents of the LAC kids -- are universally ecstatic. We The Converted just cant help proselytizing, however, so as a parting comment Id strongly suggest that your son apply to one or two and try to visit early in the year to get a first hand impression. It doesnt sound like many of the kids from his school take the LAC route and his already problematic GC is unlikely to offer any direction. My understanding is that many LACs will pay for transportation for promising students to visit. Also, many are very generous with need based financial aid. I can vouch for Williams on this front.</p>
<p>Mini, your Oxford comments made me think of Gatsby, the Oggsford Man. Do they call you Old Sport? A colleague of mine is a product of the most elite British public school system (played rugby with the Prince of Wales and all that). He eschewed Oxbridge and ended up at a big, egalitarian US university and not one with a reputation for intellectual prowess. Said it was the best decision of his life. I think reverse elitism can be a factor too.</p>
<p>mini or should I say, "hey bloke!" <em>LOL</em></p>
<p>I couldn't agree with you more about the prestige schools only carrying weight in certain circles. As a matter of fact, I think that if my son were to attend one of them and then try to come back here, he would encounter problems. I say this because last year he won a fairly prestigious law internship with the largest law firm in the neighboring larger city. Without exception, the attorneys there told him that IF he desired to practice law in Kansas, he MUST attend either Washburn or KU law schools. I truly think that the attitudes here would reflect the Wizard of Oz attitude I talked about above---that anything not from around here is neither wanted nor needed. So, my son's experience totally supports what you are saying.</p>
<p>Oh, and I DO plan on enjoying the next 8 months! I have been having dreams for about a year now of my son in an empty apartment with no food...<em>sigh</em> Well, maybe I do overparent a bit...<em>lol</em></p>
<p>momrath,</p>
<p>I cherish the varied opinions of all the parents on this board! I feel so lucky to have all this amazing wisdom at my disposal! I am quickly becoming a convert to LACs. In fact, I think my next child (daughter 1) would thrive in that type of atmosphere. I'll keep working on my son! ~berurah</p>
<p>Momrath - sure do, although my Oxford college (Worcester) is best, and extremely accurately, portrayed in Evelyn Waugh's "Decline and Fall", perhaps the best collegiate (and post-collegiate) novel ever written.</p>
<p>Reverse elitism? You bet. Out here, a degree from Washington State U. ("Go Cougs") will quickly get you into a robust alumni employment network. HYP might help you with a couple of Seattle-based law firms, a few banks, and that's about it.</p>
<p>Williams is a fine school (says this alum. with gratefulness in their sending me to Oxford upon graduation), but your son is likely (as you described him) to find it much too isolated. In addition, Amherst's "Law, Jurisprudence, and Social Thought" program is its premiere offering, and, as far as I know, there is nothing equivalent to it to be found anywhere in the country:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amherst.edu/%7Eljst/%5B/url%5D">http://www.amherst.edu/~ljst/</a></p>
<p>(of course, it is just as hard to get into as all the other schools your son is considering.) Nice thing about Amherst as well is its membership in the 5-college consortium, which significantly expands the range of both academic and cultural offerings. There is, for example a 5-college certificate program in Culture, Health , and Science (headquartered at Mt. Holyoke) that links together most of your son's interests. If he really isn't "pre-med", he might find this more closely linked to his medical-legal interests (and there are real "superstar" faculty):</p>
<p>These five-college things DO work - my d., in her first semester at Smith (and a music composition major) is heavily involved in the 5-college early music program (headquartered at Mt. Holyoke, though her course meets at Smith), that has already taken her to each of the campuses except Hampshire.</p>
<p>Well, mini, if he decided to do something like that, what do you think about how he should present himself on the app.? We have stuck mostly with the science/pre-med emphasis in his interests, essays, etc. Would an app. that incorporates both be seen as too "scattered". Funny thing is, this kid really IS the most focused kid ever--it's just that his interests DO incorporate both!~ ~berurah</p>
<p>Well, probably what I would do is read the two websites I referenced really carefully, and package to fit. The fact is - he DOES fit, so it's just a matter of showing it. Your son's wide interests are NOT unusual for a fine liberal arts colleges - my d. is a composer (and opera singer), but also has strong interests in native and botanical medicine (in fact, our trip to India is planned to allow her to further these latter interests more intensively.) TheDad's daughter is a French horn-playing, ballet-dancing, dual government and math major.</p>
<p>Let me be clear: there are certain areas where a large university is really required. Egyptology, Arabic and Near-Eastern languages, classics for someone who has already mastered ancient Greek, bio-medical engineering, and, for the very, very top students, probably math and physics as well (though some of the LACs are excellent). There are probably other areas as well. But as you describe him, LACs really exist for someone like your son.</p>