<p>…Cite a reference… :"> </p>
<p>You have shown your true colors @nightowl1. No can debate someone who has an axe to grind against people because of their skin color.</p>
<p>You aren’t conservative either although you talk about liberal lala-land. Liberals generally view the world through the prism of race and gender and sex as you do. Conservatives prefer to view the world through values and citizenry and contribution to society.</p>
<p>You pick a fight, you insult and you are stuck on race. Sad for you. Why would anyone admit to your premise. It’s undefined, inelegant and incorrect. You offer no details, no evidence, no basis and no context. You bash the president based on their SAT scores from 30 years ago. 30 years ago, these same Ivy League schools had admissions rates of 40%-50%. We could compare the scores of white graduates to white applicants today and come to the same conclusions you derive from thin air with nothing. Remember when kids got accepted because they were rich, had politically connected parents, were usually white but not Jewish? Probably not.</p>
<p>Be careful when looking for intelligent debate. You may find it. You may not like it.</p>
<p>@nightowl If you are truly trying to provide a factual answer to the OP question than post links to your data. Current data please, which show actual average sat scores for AA students at Ivy League schools. </p>
<p>And I don’t think there are any “dirty little secrets.” Schools openly advertise their diversity efforts, They try to maintain a percentage of AA students, just like they bend over backwards to admit that one applicant from Montana so they can advertise that they have students from all 50 states.</p>
<p>So are you at Penn? I have a strong suspicion that you have some sort of axe to grind. What’s the matter? Rejected at HPY and still haven’t been able to move beyond the rejection? Looking for someone to blame? Don’t blame the black students taking up 8% of the spots. Take a look at the other 92% and ask yourself why you weren’t stellar enough to get one of those spots?</p>
<p>We are all still waiting for your data links. And how about you post your stats and college results so we can see where all of your anger is stemming from. </p>
<p>Really? Nothing better to do than ■■■■■ the AA forum? Take your racist rants over to the Race forum-you will find lots of kindred spirits there to commiserate with over how you have been wronged. Your are pathetic.</p>
<p>And who gives a crap about the Obama’s scores? What is your point. It is publically released that Bill Clinton scored a 1032 and Al Gore scored a 1035, and they are both generally regarded as geniuses. I suppose the Obamas had their Bar exams curved too?</p>
<p>Do you really need to do this here? Has it not all already beensaid on the race FAQ? You want me to find the article YOU quoted? I think you mean the data from THIS paper, which had been used in more recnt publications, including “The Power of Race” and “The Opportuunity Cost…”</p>
<p>“Admission Preferences for Minority Students, Athletes, and Legacies at Elite Universities,” T.J. Espenshade, C.Y. Chung, and J.L. Walling, Social Science Quarterly, December 2004, 85(5):1422-1446.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf”>http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf</a></p>
<p>I did not say there are no racial preferneces. I said the paper shows that the preference is greatest for AA’s scoring between 600 and 650, or 1300 combined on the old SAT, and below and above that, there is an actula DISADVANTAGE. </p>
<p>“The penalty for scoring less than 1200 on the SAT is significantly greater for African-American and Hispanic students than the penalty for white students who score less than 1200 (Model 2). Similarly, the reward (i.e., increased likelihood of admission) that is produced by scoring more than 1300 is significantly smaller for African-American and especially for Hispanic students than the reward for white students who score more than 1300.Thus, we find that the underrepresented minority advantage is greatest for African-American and Hispanic applicants with SAT scores in the 1200–1300 range …”</p>
<p>Further, I was suggesting that just being born black offers no advantage in terms of attending an elite college. It is not until you are actually IN the application pool at 10 of about 3000 US universities, that you are at an advantage. And that if you don’t know how unlikely it is for an AA to be in that pool, then there is no point. </p>
<p>Actually, there is still no point, this is a college Admissions forum, and i understand your frustration. I will take mine elsewhere, and get back to work. </p>
<p>Not surprised by the turn of events on this thread. I’ve only followed CC for 3 or so years but Ivy or race and both together seem to get heated really fast. I just want to point out that there are URMs who have no desire to pursue Ivy League admissions. My D, 2100+ SAT, 800s SAT subjects, 32+ ACT, 5s on APs and absolutely no desire to go Ivy. None of the schools have the program she wants and she prefers to use as much free money as she can receive. I have met parents of other URM students who also won’t apply. We don’t expect it would have been any easier to get in based on other students who have been accepted or rejected. But it is kind of silly to speculate on the unfair advantages of others without taking into account their disadvantages. </p>
<p>@nightowl Wow thanks for sharing your vast knowledge and insider information with us. I will immediately tell S15 to chill out because nightowl says he is getting in everywhere! Oh happy day, all of those matches and safeties are coming off of the list. All of those hours studying to be Val and maintaining a 4.0…the top SAT, ACT, SAT II scores, all of the AP 5’s, just a waste…definitely cancelling the Sep ACT retake because a 36 is kind of pointless, right? The award winning ECs? The prestigious summer programs? SUCH as waste of time and energy. Had I only heard from you earlier.</p>
<p>" I can probably steer you in the right direction." LOL</p>
<p>Sweetie, your Mom is calling, go clean your room. Enough crank posting for the day.</p>
<p>Is the article I linked the one you were referring to or not? I am voicing no opinion of my own, I am simply quoting the article I believe you were referencing. The one you told me to look up. It says</p>
<p>“Ten academically selective colleges and universities participated in the NSCE and supplied
individual-level data on all persons who applied for admission in the fall of 1983 (or a nearby year), 1993, and 1997…Underrepresented minority student status made almost no difference to admission chances at the less selective four-year institutions attended by 80 percent of students.”</p>
<p>If you have another reference, please share. As I’ve mentioned, this is pretty old.</p>
<p>“At least one of you kinda admitted that the AA advantage exists. …Long way to go.”</p>
<p>Carry on, then! </p>
<p>Of course Ivy League schools accept students with below-average SAT scores if they are in groups the colleges want to recruit–this includes not only URMs, but also recruited athletes, development cases, legacies, and others. This is not a secret, and it doesn’t take much research to show that it’s the case. So what? The colleges think it’s a good thing, and so do many other people, including me. It happens over and over again, however, that somebody is shocked and horrified to learn this, and thinks it’s the greatest injustice ever perpetrated on mankind. Well, it isn’t. It’s social engineering done by private institutions that have every right to do it. If you don’t like it, boycott them.</p>
1 Like
<p>“Do you really believe we have to read articles to know that URM’s especially blacks get a huge bump at admissions???”</p>
<p>YOU said…</p>
<p>" …Read The Power of Race."
“… Do a google search.”
" Do your own work. Try Google."</p>
<p>I am suggesting you join the Race FAQ. You will find your peeps there, and there is always someone will to rehash this. </p>
<p>wow. </p>
<p>What is your issue? “Peeps” means, as implied by the rest of the sentence, people who want to go on endlessly about the role of race in admissions. You really should check it out. Sheessh! What do YOU think I meant? </p>
<p>I thought Peeps were those sugar-coated marshmallow birds found everywhere around Easter. </p>
<p>If you’re going to abbreviate “people” the proper way to do it would be this:</p>
<p>Peops </p>
<p>Okay…Can you tell me anyway? Just so we’re clear? Have you looked at the Race FAQ? I think you would know what I meant if you did. </p>
<p>PS That wasn’t indignation. I am actually getting a little worried. </p>
<p>This seems to be unnecessarily bitter. Harvard did a survey for their class of 2017. The average test score of anyone admitted was 2237. For black students it was 2110 and for asians 2299. Now the survey was not everybody but only those who chose to participate and was self reported. the largest boost was actually given to recruited athletes which was 173 points below the norm. There is no question that affirmative action is a positive factor in the admission process. What the Harvard survey found was that the highest test scores on campus were not ethnically driven but financial as the group with the highest test scores coincided with the group of students who came from families that earned over 250k. What students need to realize is that the boost or bump as some like to call it is minimal. The preponderance of students regardless of ethnicity fall within the 25/75 on the common data set. Keep in mind that the admission process is somewhat categorical. There is some individuality to the process but in most cases if a student who is quote unquote qualified (the process is holistic so who can really say). Is denied he or she probably lost that spot to someone of the same demographics. If you take notice from year to year the ethnic breakdown on these campuses stays consistent. </p>
<p>Average gpa uw is 3.94</p>
<p>This guy is throwing out the term lib and pretending to be a conservative talk show host. Please don’t play in to his fantasies. </p>
<p>He is not what he thinks he is. He insults and demeans on baseless grounds. He hides his real motivations because he has no good intentions and he claims small victories where there are none. It’s time to ignore this guy. He’s trying to kick up dust and if he’s auditioning for skinheads radio, he sucks at it too much for them.</p>
<p>Time for him to disappear. Time for serious people to get back to business. Look away folks, nothing to see here.</p>
<p>nightowl1, we’ve encountered many, many trolls on this site, and you certainly appear to be the latest one. If you’re not, then you’ll give a carefully thought out explanation of just what your point of view is, and what your concerns are. If you are a ■■■■■, you will throw out some more insults. As far as the validity of your points, even a stopped clock is right twice a day–but that doesn’t mean it has a brain.</p>
<p>Wow, this spiraled into crazy territory pretty fast. References are a standard academic request to support any argument. @nightowl1 obviously wouldn’t qualify for the ivy league…</p>
<p>Go back under the bridge, please.</p>
<p>It’s not denial. We actually used a college advisor that only guides minorities to top tier colleges. She told us point blank my D needed an SAT over 2000 and 2 SAT subject tests at/over 700. Even then she continually stressed there are NO guarantees - this from someone in-the-know professionally. </p>
<p>D exceeded both benchmarks and was accepted to Penn (class of 2018!) She was denied at both Brown and Yale, so obviously the advice was sound. </p>
<p>As it was explained to us, being URM with certain stats “gets you in the pile.” The rest is the holistic admissions process at work.</p>