<p>Unfortunately this is a topic that doesn’t seem to educate - at least on this forum. I spent too much time last night on another thread on the pros and cons of fraternities. Same folks appear to be here. In my opinion the pro-fraternity posters really hurt their cause by not acknowledging any problems with fraternities - no matter what. One poster - Bay - actually said she thinks the recent incident at Yale in which fraternity brothers walked through campus yelling vile misogynistic chants may have been OK in the context of free speech or something. That nauseated me. All posters who don’t support fraternities are called names by these same fraternity-supporters. Any evidence that is presented, no matter where it was published, can’t possibly be scientific. It makes me think that the worst of fraternities - the group think they engender, is alive and well on these threads. </p>
<p>My hat is off to those of you who attempt to be civil. The rest of you have done me a favor by curing me of my growing CC habit. I expect you’ll really let me have it now. But I don’t plan to keep reading.</p>
<p>Personally, I think that the Greek system continues to suffer from the history of drunken parties, alcohol poisoning deaths, and other bad behavior that makes headlines. Not enough stories are written about the positive sides. We remember the drama, and forget the mundane, good works. We can blame the media, in large part, for the defensiveness of some “pro-Greeks” and the antagonism of some “anti-Greeks.” </p>
<p>Back to the OP’s statement: “I’m sure D did not consider herself mean in her assessment. One of the things my family does rather well is say what they think and know that they won’t be immediately judged as mean or judged at all. It is something that has lead to growth, re-evaluation, continued learning and a generosity of spirit.”</p>
<p>I assume that you are not counting me among the “pro-fraternity” posters, since I certainly have acknowledged problems with fraternities. But as far as I can tell, the more nuanced responses are simply ignored.</p>
<p>Frankly, as a non-Greek, I can see why those who have been members come across as not acknowledging problems. Because everything is posed in a “when did you stop beating your wife” manner.</p>
<p>That’s exactly it in the systems that I am familiar with. But why confuse the issue with the facts? It’s more fun to pretend that it’s all about judging who has the most money, etc. (Which is sort of puzzling anyway. If someone was to be so superficial as to pick their friends on the basis of who has the most money, then what makes you think not having a Greek system would change that character flaw? They’d do the same thing - except they’d do so based on who they met in the dining hall or in classes instead.)</p>
<p>MizzBee simply described the computer algorithm that is used in order to maximize the chances that every girl would get placed in a house, even if it wasn’t her top choice (because not everyone can get their top choice). </p>
<p>I don’t see one darn bit of difference between the sorority parties and other parties / get togethers / social situations where people “size up” and decide that they want to be friends or not with other people - except the sorority parties are more structured in nature. </p>
<p>And while I don’t <em>choose</em> my friends based on how they dress or look - there are certain looks that are offputting to some people. You send signals with how you dress and present yourself - whether it’s a sweater set and pearls, spiked hair and multiple piercings, a low-key T-shirt, the latest designer fashions, etc. I call b.s. to the notion that the spiked-hair kids aren’t viewing the sweater-set-and-pearls-girls as girls they want to hang with, and vice versa.</p>
<p>This part is a bit confusing. If pledging/rushing is limited to a rather short time frame, how does one figure out who one will want to hang out with? D ‘met’ her Freshman roommate on FB. Watching them the first quarter one would have placed a large bet on their becoming live long friends. Yet, after settling into their new lives by the end of the 2nd quarter… while still being congenial and courteous roommates…it became clear to each that they really were not compatible friends. Since the end of that living arrangement, they do not seek each others company.</p>
<p>How does it work when when pledges ‘pick’ a house and the house ‘picks’ them. How does one judge whether the other is a ‘nice guy’? It seems that the pledging/rushing phase is not all that different than the initial phase of a courtship…where one uses their best company manners. How accepted is it to ‘jump houses’ after the end of a year if the student wants to ‘date’ other houses?</p>
<p>There’s also the history of them being historically associated with the more conservative upper/upper-middle class “Establishment” from the '60s counterculture and to some extent…to the present. </p>
<p>This was one major reason why when several HS classmates were even joking about joining fraternities/sororities to their early boomer parents who were hippies or otherwise anti-establishment activists in the '60s…the parents told them that while it’s their right to join whatever organizations they want…provided they found a way to pay for it themselves. </p>
<p>They also reminded them that they had serious political/philosophical issues with fraternities/sororities and as a result, don’t feel they should be compelled to pay for it…whether for themselves or for their kids as that would, in effect, be forcing them to subsidize organizations which go against their philosophical/political beliefs. Beliefs which were quite prevalent among nearly all the radical lefty HS classmates and moreso…among most students at my genuinely radical-lefty LAC. </p>
<p>Personally, I didn’t feel that extreme…but after observing two older cousins…including the one who was a Big 10 honors student sorority member…the cultural milieu was far too alien for me to relate to them…and the prevailing heavy drinking culture was a big turnoff…even though I do enjoy an alcoholic drink every now and then and am against the over 21 drinking rule on legal consistency and equal application of law principles.</p>
<p>dietz, good questions. Basically, at MIT at that time, all freshmen were not guaranteed housing. So living in a Greek house was a good alternative for many kids. Rush week took place during a week or so before classes started–possibly during orientation? I don’t recall-- so the students had little to do but go to houses, hang out, attend events, and get to know people. It is probably fair to say that what they established during that week was what appeared to be basic compatibility with a preponderance of brothers. One thing you have to realize is that everyone in a house does not become instant best friends. It is more that they are committed to TRY to respect each other and get along. Some people within the house really didn’t like each other much, others were friends for life. Sometimes pledges did not work out, and moved out of the house before initiation. I don’t recall the precise timing of that. I think it happened rarely, and was usually a fairly mutual decision. I’m sure that there were hurt feelings at times, though. How could there not be? (Of course, the same thing happens with randomly-assigned or even chosen room mates in dorms.) </p>
<p>Others know more about the ins and outs of switching houses, but I don’t think it is normally possible to depledge one house and subsequently pledge another.</p>
<p>I’m not sure what is so crass about joining a Greek organization with a hope that one day membership may help you get a job. That surely can’t be the only reason one joins, but even if it were, why is that so awful? Goodness, our kids today are bombarded with advice to network, they’re told to pick schools with good alumni support, and they constantly hear it said “It’s not what you know but who you know.” Well, one way networking can work is through an affiliation like a fraternity or sorority. Connections can also be made via a sports team, a musical organization, or pre-professional club. Admit it or not, people chose friends for the benefit they give them. The benefit can be emotional, material, social, spiritual, and so on. This is no different.</p>
<p>I am not a fan of the Greek system based on what I saw on my campus, but to each his own. I don’t like it when people assume all Greeks are this or that terrible debauched thing. Just like with any other group, you can’t generalize.</p>
<p>“Admit it or not, people chose friends for the benefit they give them. The benefit can be emotional, material, social, spiritual, and so on. This is no different.”</p>
<p>I have been looking at past posts and I NEVER said anything about sizing people up. Resumes are used, and in competitive schools, but it is really about the conversations and the connections after basically the first round (especially if the first round has 100+ women going through). Do you have the grades? Were you able to juggle school and ECs? “Oh, look Suzy PNM is into theater. Annie Active, lets make sure she talks to you next round. Hey Polly, she lives one town over from you, maybe you know the same people, lets make sure you meet her next time”.
And when I am making friends IRL, I do look for similar values, shared experiences, good attitudes, etc. which happens at parties. I dont want friends that are clones, but I also don’t want awkward pauses where you can hear crickets chirping. People who do well in social recruitment are social. </p>
<p>As for sororities (NPC), if you are initiated (after a 6-8 week pledge education process) you are not allowed to affiliate with another chapter for life. Fraternity (IFC) you may ask to de-affiliate, but not all groups would grant it, nor would another group accept someone that knows another ritual. It may happen but it is rare.</p>
<p>For the person that asked about Greek Chat google it. It is not on CC. </p>
<p>As for fraterntiy recruitment, I will let you know this fall after DS completed his recruitment. In reality I will never know everything because exact membership selection is private. No fraternity or sorority will tell you exactly how a brother or sister is chosen, just like you will never know why you got the job over another person on why someone else got the scholarship. </p>
<p>And now, I am off to have a final dinner with the seniors at the sorority where I have been an advisor. My “girls” have a GPA average of 3.5, all but one have jobs lined up after college and the one that doesn’t is going to Peru for a medical mission before applying to either medical or dental school.</p>
<p>It is technically possible to depledge one house and pledge another, but it would just never happen. Also, it never happens that a sophomore pledges a house at MIT (at least when freshman could pledge.)</p>
<p>For all intensive purposes, Rush ‘week’ was really 2-3 days. If you arrived at a house after the second day, basically it was too late. All the bids were handed out already. I guess you have the rest of the week to make the decision, but it is rare to turn down a bid unless it is for another house. If you act like you are unsure whether you would join a frat, you are unlikely to get a bid. And so it’s a bit awkward to turn it down for a dorm.<br>
And it’s pretty awkward to depledge. Yes, there are hurt feelings. The only case where it might not be awkward is if someone’s parents force them to leave, but that is not likely to happen before the semester is out (no grades.) </p>
<p>I know there was an all-freshman-on-campus rule instituted after a kid died during pledging, but I’m not sure when the MIT kids pledge these days. </p>
<p>I think the problem with a Greek system being too large is that the university kind of shoves it down your throat. The university starts to depend on it for housing, so their priority is what is best for the Greek system, not what is best for the individual. Case-in-point is that there was a lot of resistance to moving pledging to the sophomore year because that would reduce the number of people who went out for frats. Well, if that’s the case, either (1) the frats should change to make themselves more attractive, or (2) maybe some people would be better off not in a frat, even if that means that the Greek scene gets weaker. Another gem was that no one on campus was allowed to say anything bad about a house during Rush week; that was actually a university-sanctioned rule! Kids are away from home for the first time freshman year. I say, let them get settled, meet some people, and then decide whether they want to join the Greek scene (and let them size up the fraternities over a longer period of time.)</p>
<p>I seems that one would have to consider, and decide, on the Greek option well before actually arriving on campus. It also seems that the HS student would need to spend time researching the different house options and try to figure out where the best fit might be. If one came from a family with a Greek history that may just be second nature and an expected path. But it could be pretty daunting to someone (like my D) who is exposed to option for the first time. And, the exposure comes during a time already filled with turmoil, major adjustments, some self doubt and probably a sense of urgency to ‘find your tribe’.</p>
<p>Yeah, they did send out brochures before Rush so you could get a sense of the frats, though you could only tell if they were very different–most of them sounded the same. If you live near Boston, there might be events the summer before Rush as well.</p>
<p>I always thought that the situation at MIT back then was pretty irresponsible on the part of the university. 17 and 18 yr olds coming to a major city ought to be provided with housing by the school. And I disapprove of freshman rush. I think it is much better to wait until sophomore year. If there is a Greek system at all. Personally, I would infinitely prefer residential colleges the way that Yale does them: students are assigned to colleges when they enter using criteria designed to place a cross-section of the student body in each college, live in freshmen housing the first year, then move to the college.</p>
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<p>Not back then. I lived in the house a couple of summers, and I would remember. Even though it was the 70s :D</p>
<p>MizzBee: " I dont want friends that are clones, but I also don’t want awkward pauses where you can hear crickets chirping. People who do well in social recruitment are social. "</p>
<p>So this is where I get upset. Kids who are slightly shyer get left out. And that’s okay? These kids might want to be part of it all like everyone else. They still might be social but not be butterflies, so maybe a cricket might chirp now and then (lol). People who are not speaking constantly are just as worthwhile as those who are. But not to a sorority?</p>
<p>Pizza: “And while I don’t <em>choose</em> my friends based on how they dress or look - there are certain looks that are offputting to some people. You send signals with how you dress and present yourself - whether it’s a sweater set and pearls, spiked hair and multiple piercings, a low-key T-shirt, the latest designer fashions, etc. I call b.s. to the notion that the spiked-hair kids aren’t viewing the sweater-set-and-pearls-girls as girls they want to hang with, and vice versa.”
I call bs to the idea of judging people based on personal style. A tough biker guy could be the biggest sweetheart. It’s a shame if the sweater set kids girls don’t want to mingle with the spiked hair ( and visaversa) set, and sorority membership were to keep them apart. I think its good for kids to get out of their comfort zone and mix it up with different people.</p>
<p>^Redpoint, don’t assume that a shy woman can’t be part of a sorority, especially if she practices before recruitment. I just spent a couple of hours with some amazing women. remember them as freshman, and not all of them were butterflies. Are those same women capable of talking one on one with someone? That is what recruitment is. I have taught me own son to prepare for interviews before, for scholarship comptetitions, etc, and those skills are useful. Shy is one thing that shouldn’t stop someone from going through recruitment. Yes, it is easier for social types, just as it is during job interviews, meeting potential mates, etc. </p>
<p>If you are going to be at a competitive recruitment and you are shy, then make sure your rec letters writers put you in a good light (similar to how a GC rec letter does).
Look, at many Greek schools there is formal recruitment and informal recruitment. Informal is a great place for less social people to shine. In truth, the longer rounds of formal recruitment lead to longer and more meaningful conversations. </p>
<p>As for sorority members not getting out of comfort zones and mingling with people, do you really think that any of us on here only had other Greek friends? I made friends in my classes, my ECs, my wild nights on the town. I lived with a group of women, shared their lives, but they weren’t my only friends. Heck I didn’t even get along with all of them at certain times. At my school I hung out with the people protesting apartheid, with drag queens and with a scary smart guy that had hair down to his waist. They didn’t judge me because I was in a sorority. I met them through common interests, just as I now meet my friends. But my best friends that have stood by me all these years are still my sorority sisters. </p>
<p>With that, I recommend to the OP to crack open a bottle and enjoy the other threads. I am going to stop arguing about how great Greek life is and remember how this night proved that point a thousand times over. This may be my last year as an advisor but I know that I have positively affected lives, and am proud to call these women my sisters.</p>