Austin: Agreed. It’s dissension I’m working to overcome. I don’t think my son’s view would be as dim if his father didn’t express his opinion that way. As for why does he teach there? Great question. He’s tried to get similar positions elsewhere and has gotten phone interviews and not much further. So he stays, because it’s a job and frankly a job many people would love to have. I have a completely different view of things which I’m trying to impress upon my son. I’m working hard to overcome the negativity.
Oldfort: yes, we know this. I didn’t want to stop him from applying anyway. You never know. Perhaps they’ll see something in his story/essay that makes them pause. Probably I’m dreaming, but it’s worth a shot.
I have to wonder: Is there a better in-state public option?
Penn State, which he applied to. Could be our compromise school. They offer almost no merit aid (to anyone) and it’s still about 30k/year, even for in state.
Maybe he could apply for Schreyer, Penn State’s honors college, in hopes of getting some merit? They don’t look at SAT scores.
OP- thanks for clarifying AND thanks for listening with an open mind. So many posters ask for advice and then lash out at anything which doesn’t confirm their current thinking!
Two thoughts.
1- Your son is likely looking at a five year BArch program- not four. There are a couple of experienced architects on this board who can comment- but I think your math is wrong on the finances. Check the course of study of the places your son is interested in… including the free option- can you really finish the program in four years? If not, adjust your calculations. That fifth year can really hurt financially.
2- Architecture is a field which I think attracts kids who- I’m going to surmise- are a lot like your son. Intellectual and broad thinkers-- maybe not the “study for the test” type, but not slackers and not interested in a four year party experience (which is good because architecture majors work really, really hard!) So I think a lot of the statistics from a lot of schools need to be taken with a grain of salt in your son’s case. Architects tend to be quite intellectual- they need to know art, history, math, materials, and solid left and right side of the brain reasoning skills. It’s also a weed-out major, so the kids who can’t hack it end up in construction management or real estate finance, “general studies” with a concentration in urban planning, etc. I would not be too worried about his classroom cohort.
3- If it were me (and again- it’s not, so I fully respect your need to tailor the advice you are getting to your own situation) I would sit down with my kid and create a spreadsheet showing “source of funds”. How much per year out of the college fund, how much from current cash flow including the belt-tightening which needs to be a family effort (good bye HBO or whatever your particular indulgence is), how much from loans in your son’s name (the federal maximum per year) and how much you’d need to borrow.
And then put it aside until the decisions start coming in. Right now in your son’s head, you guys will borrow to make his dreams come true. And that’s why it’s so much fun being around teenagers- they still have some of that toddler brain where make-believe is so magical. Wait until you’ve got something to talk about- i.e. comparing Penn State main campus to Someone Else’s Flagship U main campus, but Someone Else’s involves a boatload of loans. Or your next cheapest option to a Private U with a modest amount of merit aid- but an architecture program which is 30 slots down in the rankings. (That’s a lot of loans to give up 30 spots in the rankings! Just to avoid “Dad’s school”).
Reality is going to take a while to kick in.
We are in the same boat, kind of, @WantWhatsBest - in PA and can’t afford PSU (which is well over $30k, btw, for the main campus).
I’m dying to know where your hubby teaches 
Our D doesn’t qualify for merit/honors etc at the schools she would love to go to either. She’s quite smart, but the stats are what they are, and there’s no use trying to make them something they’re not.
It’s not unusual for your son to think, gee, I’m smarter than these stats indicate; I’ll be bored out of my mind and won’t be challenged - especially if he’s been raised to expect that he’ll go further. But those who have said there are smart kids everywhere are right. He will find his tribe.
It’s also true that college is what you make of it: If you have the motivation, there is nothing to hold you back.
I was told by some people that not attending an Ivy hampered my chances in my profession. They were wrong. In almost all cases, those who say and think such things are wrong.
Stick with the free tuition; if you have money to spend after that is all paid for, your next kid is set, and your retirement is assured, and you still want to enrich your kid’s life, pay for some splendiferous study-abroad options or something. He will be FINE!
The only other school that has branch campuses is Pitt, which is as good as Penn State.
Unless you are talking about PASSHE schools. Only a few of those have branches.
There is a plethora of LACs and catholic colleges in PA, many might give merit, but depending on need based aid might still cost as much as Pitt and Penn State.
Chatham has just recently become co-ed, they might want to attract male students.
IUP is a good PASSHE school. He can apply to Cook Honors College. It does not have strict stats requirements I believe.
PA has some good instate schools, although from what I understand… they are pricey.
My suggestion is to apply to schools and see what the aid packages are. Once all of the packages are in, you will be able to determine what is affordable and what is not.
Your son is an academic fit at the main campus… which is not the same campus that his father teaches at … and puts down…?
Have you considered SUNY Buffalo (UB)? They have a good School of Architecture, it is “reasonable” for OOS, and there are a lot of smart kids attending.
http://www.alfredstate.edu/architecture-and-design-news
Some schools in Ohio that might give merit are Kent State, Youngstown State, U Toledo, Cleveland State.
Hubby teaches in Ohio, not PA. We just live in PA. I’ll leave it at that. You guys seem pretty sharp, so I’m sure you can deduce it.
I agree with so many of you. It’s what you make of it. But, I will also fully admit that I was very lucky in being able to go to a highly selective liberal arts school and having parents who could fully fund it. I absolutely loved being surrounded by whip-smart, creative kids. It forced me to be on my game all the time. It made me better, no question about it. But. The poster who said that kids who go into architecture must be masters of variety and hemispherically (brain-wise) proficient is 100% correct. It’s no easy feat to use both sides of the brain in nearly equal amounts, and I can say without bias (sorta) that he really can. He thinks through complex problems and is so curious about the world. And on top of that, very creative, a good artist, and the kind of kid seemingly made for this profession. I still have his drawings of cityscapes and buildings from grade school.
Blossom: Your points are amazing, thank you. Yes, I am trying to have an open mind. I came here for honest assessments, not to get confirmation of what I want to hear. Your first point about a 5-year program — the state school with free tuition offers a dual MArch/MBA, and again the tuition would be waived. This in addition to the bachelor’s. That’s hard to turn down. However, I’d be open to a grad school he would love and get into if I could save during his undergrad. Your second point – yes, I’m pretty sure he’s going in the right direction. And yes, the arch students seem serious and studious. I too think he’ll be fine, but he’s 17 and doesn’t have the linear years to form any sort of perspective about life. That’s my job – but try to get teenagers to listen. Ha. And 3: Yeah, I don’t even have HBO now. If he did attend this state school where we get the waiver, I’d be on the hook for room/board/fees for the first four years – all nearly fully funded by the 529. If he stayed their for grad school, I’d be able to swing those few years from income. Nearly every school would require all of that plus a federal loan for him and big-time loans for me. For the right school, yes. But it has to be “right” by a lot of measures.
It’s worth a day out of school for your son to “shadow” an architecture undergrad at the “freebie” school (not a freshman) to get a flavor for the different types of learning opportunities- seminars, lectures, working sessions, and time in the studio. Right now your son has a HS perspective- a teacher at the front of the class, a bunch of students in rows. So if there is a majority of kids who haven’t done the reading, are asleep, are playing “Candy Crush” during class, etc. the teacher has to tailor the material down to where the majority are sitting.
College doesn’t work that way, and architecture is especially robust in the way different concepts and ideas are taught. (plus the trial and error of hands on work). Plus it’s always good to get real time confirmation that what he THINKS he wants to study is actually what he wants to study (how I wish every biomedical engineer or linguistics wanna be major did this… given that biomedical and linguistics are typically NOT what HS kids think they are!)
I do hear where you are coming from. We were fullpay for all our kids, but the college counselors were kind of shocked when I took a redline to some of the schools on the “suggested” list. I wasn’t going to pay full freight for a school that offered less- less rigor, fewer opportunities both in class and outside, “lesser” reputation in the fields of interest, etc. Full freight for the full-on, intense, challenging experience? Then we’d talk. But to pay full freight for a second tier private U’s engineering program when the state U was much cheaper AND much better? Not on my watch!
@WantWhatsBest Most architecture programs have limited enrollment and are not easy to get into, so likely most of the students in that major at the state U have higher than typical stats and your son will be challenged. When your son states that job placement/ salary stats are not high, is he referring to stats for the architecture major or overall for the school? If he has AP or DE credits, they have a higher likelihood of meeting core requirements at a state U, potentially allowing your son to graduate early, take higher level electives which interest him, or add a major/minor.
With a younger sibling’s education to plan for also, you are right to be concerned about taking out large loans. I watched my inlaws take out large home equity loans to send my husband’s younger sister (by 21 years) to a private college in a big expensive city to major in social work, wanting to fulfill her college “dreams” . My sister in law is a kind, lovely person, and is still employed as a social worker. But fast forward a few years, my mother in law can’t afford repairs to her home and was not able to retire until age 70, even though she had health issues which made it diffucult for her continue working.
As others have stated, it is unfortunate that a realistic college budget for your family has not been finalized prior to the search and application process. Of course your son is dissapointed that he cannot choose any college he likes. Likewise, it is hard for parents who want to fulfill their kids’ dreams to realize and admit that that there are limits on funds to do so. For most families, finances drive the college search and application process (or should at any rate). We have 3 kids close in age, with 2 in college over 4 years, not enough saved, lower salary for many years, etc. and we could not afford our efcs for any of them. We were up front about our finances and they understood that they needed to chase merit$. They were initially disappointed, but all landed at great schools that they love(d) attending, without hurting our family’s financial stability. Our youngest attends Temple University, a large PA public with a high admit rate, where her stats were way above average. She has found her classes challenging, and as a smart, motivated student at the top of the heap, she has had good opportunities for leadership, internships, a great tutoring job, etc.
As parents, we set limits for lots of things for our kids. College budgets are limited for most families, too.
Don’t most architects now have advanced degrees?
I suggest arranging an overnight visit at the state school. See if admissions can get him paired with an architect student.
You are in a tough spot. What about a compromise? Go to the free school to finish up his gen eds get prereqs for upper level courses then transfer to Penn St to finish? If would be less overall and he’d still get his degree from the better school.
I’ve been sent this way as a practicing architect. As a caveat I went the slow route - a BA in a related major and then a 3 year MArch. I’m less familiar with undergrad programs. A BA in architecture is useless, but a BArch (generally five years) or an MArch are degrees which you can get a job with and go on to get registered.
What I can tell you.
[ul] [li]If you are interested in making money don’t go into architecture. You can make a decent living, but only a handful get rich.[/][/li][]It’s crazy to borrow $120,000 for architecture. In fact, I’d suggest you visit a financial planner and figure out what you can afford. [/]
[]If you don’t love architecture don’t do it. I was an undergrad at Harvard. Architecture grad school was ten times harder. Everyone pulled all-nighters. And then your projects get torn apart. It’s a miserable experience, pretty much like bootcamp without the pushups. [/]
[]It will be challenging, but not necessarily particularly intellectual. [/]
[]I have friends who worked for famous architects, when those architects died they actually ended up in worse shape than me. I was busy following my husband around and then had kids, so I ended up starting a solo practice that grew as the kids got older. You can make it work, but my husband takes care of the health care. Name schools and name architects aren’t everything. [/]
[]Average salaries are averages. My son studied CS at CMU - the guys who went to Wall Street made more than him, the guy who wanted to return to his small hometown is making peanuts as a teacher. Most are doing pretty well. The kids from his safety school are in the same range, there’s just a few more of them doing the lower end stuff so their average salaries are a little less. School is what you make of it. I’d be making more if I had stayed in NYC after I graduated. [/]
[]Which gets me to another point. Architecture is highly regional. If he’s interested in staying in the area, he should study in the area. If he’s dying to work in NY he should study in NY (and do summer internships in NY). [/*] [/ul]
Good luck figuring this stuff out.
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi
I’m kind of shocked at how steep the current rates are for student loans. When I was in school it was cheaper to get a student loan than a car loan, but today it’s the opposite. No wonder kids are drowning in debt.
Loan Calculator
Loan Balance: $120,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $120,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 7.90%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 10 years
Monthly Loan Payment: $1,449.60
Number of Payments: 120
Cumulative Payments: $173,951.65
Total Interest Paid: $53,951.65
Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 119 payments of $1,449.60 plus a final payment of $1,449.25.
It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $173,952.00 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 0.7. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $115,968.00, but you may experience some financial difficulty.This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.0.
Sounds like I better start playing the lottery. Siiiiigh. This is my first child going to college. All of this is new and tough to wrestle with. To the poster who went to Harvard and whose son went to CMU – yes, I totally get that it’s what you make of it. I work with Vice Presidents who don’t even have a college degree! They used grit and street smarts and worked their way up. Agreed that averages are just averages. Agreed on the regionalism. But this is all speculation and theory. The only data and facts right now are what Buckeye posted. That’s reality. The money. The math. That’s what will drive the decision at the end of the day. And yes, the rates for student loans are awful.
The math is that the odds of making $173,000 as an architect - even eventually as the principal of a firm - are tiny. Straight from Google’s top hit