When to quit looking.

Parents Forum
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<p>KarininDallas:</p>

<p>Can you mention anything about Baylor that makes you see it is less desireable? My kid is in there, as a safety with merit $, but also applying to several other schools. We have not yet visited, that'll come in the spring, but I would love to hear a Texan perspective, just as I would know things about west coast schools, other than what you might find in research, you might know things I should check into for myself during our visit.</p>

<p>Islandmom:</p>

<p>My daughter IS applying to one top 5 school and several top 25 schools, has the stats, but admissions is such a roll of the dice, we wanted to begin the year with a really nice admissions and financial safety. As she has worked on other essays, she has reminded me that she could just stop with Baylor, it is a nice feeling to have something offered all ready! My impression of Baylor is that it could be a great experience and that there could be a more nuturing environment than, say, a big state flagship university with 20-30,000 or more students.</p>

<p>I would tell your daughter to apply a few more places to give herself the chance to feel like she has a choice next spring. That is coming, though, from a family who has not visited most of the universities to which we are applying......I am quite familiar with several of our choices, but my daughter is not. So, we want her to go visit her admitted schools next spring and then decide which experiecne she wants.</p>

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<p>Everyone has different likes and dislikes (otherwise our kids would all want to go to the same school!), but I don't care for Waco, Texas. That could be because it isn't too far from home, but I view it as a place for people from Dallas and Austin to make a gas stop. There are many kids at Baylor who love it. I find the administration and the Baptist tradition too conservative for my tastes, and I am conservative anyway! I am not impressed with the handling of the basketball fiasco last year (the murder etc.) My son has a friend there now (freshman) and she is doing OK, but is not thrilled with Baylor. These are just my views, and there are lots of Texans and others who think Baylor is wonderful. My daughter is at Rice (sophomore) and we think Rice is perfect! Son (hs junior) will only consider UT of all the Texas schools, but will probably wind up staying in the east where he goes to boarding school. Hope this helps a little.</p>

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<p>Funny, we have family in Texas, Houston & Georgetown & Dallas, every one of them (from Houston) said no, no, no to Rice...too much like USC of Texas, being in the downtown area, and also concerned about a wimpie Californian being able to deal with the humidity of Houston. They also said A&M all the way :) (Yes, they had boots on & yes, the belt buckles are of good size!) I was always impressed with Rice when I researched it for my oldest (3rd year uni) but she stuck with California after being away from "home" for several years.</p>

<p>I would not be surprised to see Waco as a gas stop! It sounds like that kind of small town on the way type of place.</p>

<p>We are conservative and also liked the Christian school option, and have just spent about 6 years in a vastly socialist & secular area, so Baylor would be the oppositive end of the spectrum.</p>

<p>We're fixin to take a visit to check it out in a few months.</p>

<p>Sorry about the son/daughter mix up above :o</p>

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<p>Islandmom:</p>

<p>My apologies. I was wrong about being suckerpunched.</p>

<p>There are a lot of schools between UT-Austin and Yale. I think you should sit down with your daughter and talk about types of colleges and what she is looking for.</p>

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<p>Islandmom, I feel the ranking of schools in reaches and safeties can be misleading, especially when factoring the happiness variable. You and your daughter are in the very enviable situation of having acceptances lined up. In addition to UT-Austin and Baylor, I assume that you could "safely" add a number of great schools that will provide you quasi automatic acceptances. A few that come to mind are Texas A&M and Tulane, not to mention Southwestern, Trinity, and UT-Dallas. </p>

<p>The key is to analyze each so-called safety and evaluate its individual merits. In my opinion, one of the main questions to answer is, "Would my child be HAPPY there and PROUD to attend?". One of the problems that seeps in after a student decide to attend his or her safety is the second-guessing of "selectivity". The proud moment of receiving the admission letter seems to dissapear when the same letters are sent to many students, including a great number of students who are lesser qualified. Simply stated, and especially in Texas, how great is it to go to a school where "almost" everyone seems to gain admission? </p>

<p>In my opinion, unless you can openly say that your offspring will be happy, very happy to attend, you need to look further with great urgency. I, for one, was set to attend a state school and would have been very happy to do so. I checked the various departments and scratched the surface to see how I would function in the environment. I spent time to visit the schools, and even spent a week attending classes. What I did NOT do was focusing too much on whom else got admitted. Clearly, there would have been tons of smarter kids, tons of kids like me, and also a great number of kids with lesser qualifications. In itself, that is no different from your typical high school!</p>

<p>In the end, I did not attend a state school, but my decision was not so so much based on the rankings or selectivity as it was on the format of instruction and curriculum. Again, it is important to project yourself in the future environment, and see where you will maximize your next four years. I believe that you should talk to as many parents and students as you can IN your own community, especially if you live in Texas. Try to find students who return from their freshman or sophomore year and see how much they like Austin or Waco. </p>

<p>Finally, you need to make sure to find the gems that are hidden in state schools. You can read the reports of Eadad -on the old boards- that describes how is son decided on UNC over Yale because of the prestigious Morehead scholarship. Another friend of mine is attending UT-Dallas as a McDermott scholar after turning down a number of super selective schools like Stanford. I would also encourage you to read the posts of Angstridden and see how she reacted when her daughter decided on U of Maryland. Lastly, read the posts of Evil Robot that describe his decision to attend Vandy over Yale and Concernedad's posts about Tulane.</p>

<p>In the end, the decision comes easily!</p>

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<p>I don't think the reason to attend a more selective school than the two safeties your D got into would be to get a "better education". In terms of being educated, I am sure these safeties would do. My concern, however, would have more to do with fit and in that regard in terms of the level of "challenge". What I mean is that you even touched on that she likes school to be challenging. Every kid's learning style is different. I know with my own kids, their learning style/preference is for classes to not be too easy. They just do not enjoy that. IF your D is that way, that is the issue I would discuss. As others said, who the OTHER kids are in the student body might matter to her, in terms of their levels of motivation and so forth. Not everyone cares about this so maybe it won't matter but I got the sense from your posts that your D seems to care about that sort of thing. She might be just fine particularly if she is in the Honors College at these schools that are normally safeties for her. </p>

<p>I know, for instance, that many in my neck of the woods might wonder why my D did not go to our state university because she was offered a free ride there (as well as Honors College which is small, 100 kids). It certainly is a very good school and I have no doubt she could get an excellent education there. Her main reasons to not go there was that it was in state and she wanted to go to college out of state, it did not have her major, she could never be on their ski team, etc. While she never came out and said this next thing, I know she might not have enjoyed it academically due to the student body. I know some kids who were top students who went there and that aspect did bother them a bit. It will be interesting to hear tomorrow night how her best friend from HS, a top student, National Merit, went to the state university as she had a free ride (Dad works there) though is in the Honors College, likes it. Her older sister, also a top student, who goes there, I recall thought the other kids just were not the same type of learner as she is and the degree of challenge was not there. For some kids, that is not a satisfying situation. Some might not mind at all though. </p>

<p>So, I would talk to her about that. Does she care how challenging the work is? Does she care if the other students are "good students" like she is so to speak? </p>

<p>Further, if you do look into other schools (I agree with others to widen the search so she has options next spring), there are many schools in between her two safeties and Yale. Nothing wrong with shooting for Yale but if the idea is to try some place out of Texas or not a safety, surely look for match/ballpark/realistic schools and not all reach schools, if you know what I mean. </p>

<p>I do not know your D or what her reasons were to just apply to two schools nearer to home. But one reason someone COULD do that would be simply that those were schools she knew about and could be happy at and just never really thought to look much further or does not really know what other schools could be like. I'd figure out her college criteria and just research at this point on the web and see if there are a couple schools that look enticing and apply if she is interested. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>This discussion is very interesting to me. Neither of my children have taken the lead in learning from their classmates. They have been self motivated to do the things they have done, earn the grades and honors they have received. They are both very independent learners, avid readers and writers, and DS is passionate about his major (music). I can't imagine that when DD goes to college suddenly the "quality" of the students around her will impact her zeal for learning (could happen I suppose, but hasn't yet). She is looking for good schools, out of region, with programs that interest her...it just so happens that many would be viewed as safeties FOR HER. They would not be safeties for many other students...but that's another story.</p>

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<p>I agree with Shennie. Students can get exscellent educations at hundreds of colleges. At universities At large state universities there are many excellent students but I think we overestimate the impact that other students have on the education process. Most excellent students are motivated enough to challenge themselves in many ways bot in and outside the classrom.</p>

<p>I speak from some first hand ecp[erience here. As I have mentioned on several occasions I attended Ohio State as an undergrad and Cornell as a grad student. I was very challenged by the academics at OSU and found that the course work was equivelent to the course work at Cornell. While the typical student at Cornell was better prepared and the bottom quartile students were far different, the top 15-20% students were quite similar, very smart and hard working.</p>

<p>While I would encourage your child to apply to a few more colleges, I suspect that she will do just fine at the ones she has been accepted to.</p>

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<p>I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of kids who have the stats to apply to HYPSM, but choose not to.....for a variety of reasons. I have one of them. I've given the gentle nudges.....even suggesting that it's not too late to change ED to RD and apply to more selective schools after assuring him that he's got a decent shot anywhere. I was reassured when he assuredly declined. I've heard parents say that you should select the most selective school for which you qualify and apply. But, I really think students should figure out which schools they really like and apply to the most selective of THAT list (strictly talking about reaches). I socialized Stanford.....and we visited Yale, Princeton, Harvard (well, we visited Cambridge - he wouldn't set foot on Harvard's campus:)). I have to admit that I got a little sick when I heard about some of his friends applying to his ED school....knowing that these kids had way lower SAT scores and were less serious students. No flames please...but when I heard about one of his friends with an SAT under 1200 applying to Wharton, I thought "well good grief! Here's my son, grinding away from the 1400+ and the high GPA just to hope for Penn College (my son is URM) and some guy with a sub 1200 (not from his school) is shooting for Wharton??? Heck, maybe we should go for Harvard." But, he didn't want to do it. He wants what he wants for his own reasons.......and Penn is an awesome school.......full of very bright kids. But, episodes like the revelation of the lower SAT scorers applying to Wharton make parents like me cringe with second thoughts. </p>

<p>It's kind of like working and saving for all of your life to move into a really nice neighborhood...and just when you arrive three other new families move in who are there because they won the lottery....and you feel like it kind of detracts from your accomplishment. It's also like realizing that the person next to you on an airplane paid half of what you did for the same ticket.</p>

<p>Sorry of this rambled....but I guess my point is that we have to give them all of the information to make the decision. But, the ultimate decision is theirs. And, there's something to be said for going to a place that is a match/safety and keeping your GPA high for grad school. Islandmom, I would tell her that you think she stands a good shot at some more selective schools and maybe she could apply for grins. If she declines, you know you have done all that you can and she's making an informed decision.</p>

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<p>We have visited both UT and Baylor campuses, and she attended classes at Plan II at UTAustin. I wrote about these visits under the universities' individual threads if anyone is interested.</p>

<p>I liked UT a lot and would go there in a heartbeat. She seemed to like the smaller, more nurturing environment at Baylor. Such two different schools. I guess that kind of tells you about the difference in our personalities. Her friends here at home are mostly from the Baptist youth group that she has been a member of since about fourth grade. (Our family is not Baptist)</p>

<p>As far as the type of student she is.... She has a great memory, doesn't seem to have to work hard to get good grades (except in ap calc), and is motivated on her own to do the work assigned. She doesn't need to learn from her classmates, it just seems that she would prefer that they show some enthusiasm for the topics which she finds so interesting. </p>

<p>Anyway, she did consider Vanderbilt as she had a cousin who graduated from there about 5 years ago. Unfortunately the cousin has since died and therefore she is unable to ask her how she liked Vandy. She met with the Vandy rep when she visited d's high school, did some research on the place and was just not motivated to apply.</p>

<p>She considered Tulane, but only briefly. We were in New Orleans last summer and she didn't really want to live there.</p>

<p>She really doesn't like Houston. She almost applied to Rice and then decided that the Houston factor was strong enough to keep her from applying. She was offered a full ride at Univ. of Houston, but would not even consider appplying.</p>

<p>I think she would have been in at Tulane or Vandy, but Rice would have been a long shot. They're trying to accept more national applicants and also she felt that since she scored in the lower 700's in math on SATI and II that would have kept her from being competitive there.</p>

<p>We visited the "local" LAC's of Southwestern in Georgetown and Trinity in San Antonio. Neither of them inspired her to apply, even after talking to some of her friends who are attending each of those colleges.</p>

<p>She also considered UVA and William and Mary. Her grandfather was a graduate of UVA and her great aunt and uncle are both graduates of W&M and are very active alumni and could probably help. But an out of state tuition is pretty steep.</p>

<p>Oh, speaking of tuition. She gets full tuition at Baylor plus 2,000 a semester for room and board for her SAT scores and national merit status. She gets about half tuition at UT. We saved for college but more along the lines of state tuition, room and board. But I only currently work part time. If my d came and said to me about an expensive school "this is my dream school, I have to go there" then I would have no problem going back to work full time and dedicating my salary for the next four years to her dream school. Our younger daughter is only 8 and I have been working only part time while our husband brings home the bacon so I can remain actively involved with the little one. I know I have been fortunate to have been able to do this.</p>

<p>So you can see we have been looking at schools that were maybe "above" the level of her two safeties. And we haven't really been looking at the Ivy league. And if she's feeling like she's gonna be happy at Baylor why should I steer her from there? Because I prefer that she try for the Ivy league? Is it for me or for her that I am doing this? </p>

<p>Just playing devil's advocate with myself. Which is why I found myself beginning this thread in the first place.</p>

<p>I really appreciate all your helpful thoughts on this topic.</p>

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<p>Islandmom, now that you have shared more, perhaps your D is all set with this plan. I had thought originally that she had just not looked beyond these two instate schools and had not fully explored her options. I still am not talking Ivies but simply other options that are more selective or challenging. I think the scholarships to these schools need not be overlooked. If there are Honors Colleges within them, all the better. </p>

<p>I did not mean so much about "learning from other students" in my post. I was talking more of the degree of challenge in the classes coupled with the level of motivation of the other students. It is sorta like in high school....do you take Honors/AP or perhaps the less appropriate placement in easier courses that do not challenge you. For some kids, none of this even matters. I know for my own kids, it does. </p>

<p>My college freshman is home for two nights now and has not seen her home friends since August and tonight is a bit of a reunion at our house. I asked her about her best friend who has the free ride at our state university. This girl was one of the best students in our school and is particularly gifted in music and French. She wants to go into French and maybe with an international relations aspect. My D says she likes it but the music department is a "step down" for her and that in the mandatory French class she had to take, the other kids just are not up to the level of oral language that she is. This is surely just one vignette but it is along the lines of what I meant earlier. Do I think she can get a fine education there? You bet. And it is free no less. Cream always rises to the top. Might she have enjoyed Wellesley or Tufts where she had an interest in attending if they could afford it? Yes, I think the intellectual stimulation would have suited her better but she is going to be fine anyway. That is all I meant when I suggested exploring some colleges that were perhaps made up of more kids at the level of your accomplished daughter. However, she seems to have looked into this quite a bit and is content with Baylor so nothing to lose! </p>

<p>Momsdream, I have to disagree with you a little above in that the contrast of applying to UPenn vs. HYP is not as great as the case being discussed here between state U and a more selective college or even Ivy. I surely do not think of applying to Penn as not "going for it". Penn is itself an Ivy league school and quite difficult to get into. It surely is NOT settling. If your son gets in, and I hope he does, it is quite the achievement. I'm with you about finding the school ya love...not which is ranked highest, however. If he likes Penn more than Harvard, Yale or Princeton, that is where he should apply or hopefully attend. As I have shared before, my D liked Smith and Tufts better than Penn and even got this Ben Franklin Scholar thing at Penn that had various perks. It did not matter that Penn was Ivy. She liked those other twos she got into over her Penn acceptance. Your son did the right thing going for Penn over HYP cause it fits him. Did he end up applying to Brown RD too? I know you looked there. </p>

<p>Orinaloog...I know it may have looked like my view was in opposition to yours but I also agree with your statement that you can get an excellent education at ANY school and the impact of the other students is not a huge factor. I know this to be true. In fact, in terms of my own kids, they went to a rural public school and made the most of it and have done well. My D's GC even remarked on his report how he figured a student like my D might have gone away to an elite prep school like many here opt to do but did not go that route. And we are happy with our choice. She got a good education and has done well with college admissions and is doing great in her courses so far at an Ivy. So, in a way, we adhered to your point of view on that. </p>

<p>I guess for college, however, she was trying to find a learning environment where she would be challenged and where the other kids were of similar motivation, even if that was not what she had in high school as much overall. Actually in high school, all this was true in the hardest tracked classes, however. Anyway, she cared about this but I don't think it HAS to be this way to either get a good education or to enjoy the other students. I have always believed that a motivated intelligent person can do well wherever they go and will always rise. It is the person who makes it in this world, not the school from where she came. Even still, my comments originally were more to do withi a preference for a particular kind of learning environment if that is what a kid craved. If Islandmom's D is happy with what she sees at her state schools, that is ALL that matters.</p>

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<p>I am going to argue for the importance of learning from one's peers. The best classes are those that involve active participation by the students. These can be small classes that are purposely structured as discussion classes, or they can be large lecture classes that have small sections in which students engage in discussion whether of the reading or problem sets. If the students are not engaged, or unprepared, or overwhelmed by the difficulty of the materials, the sections/classes will be unproductive, just as high school classes that are aimed at the lowest performing students are unchallenging to more advanced ones. Indeed, sections where the students are not prepared to discuss the materials critically, even though they may be able to parrot them back, can be deadly.
The fact is that students do not learn on their own or directly from books and instructors. They learn by testing their ideas and interpretations against those offered by other students--which is why there is such an emphasis on diversity. Sometimes, an instructor will direct students to revise their drafts after a discussion has been held so that they can incorporate new ideas that were presented by other members of the class. My S's math and physics classes have sections and study groups scheduled before the problem sets are due. Sometimes, he has already solved the problems by himself, but he finds it very useful when someone else shows him a more elegant way of arriving at the solution.
So, if a student feels that s/he will be among students who are not working at his or her level, that would be an important consideration.</p>

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<p>I just thought I would give my own perspective on this, because I find it a very interesting subject. SUNY-Stony Brook, where I take 5 courses, is considered a very high level research university. Now I know not to take those London Times rankings seriously, but they do prove a school's "research" potential - and Stony Brook ranked 50th (ahead of Dartmouth etc.) - I know they are ridiculous rankings, but I just thought it might give you all an idea of what the school focuses on.</p>

<p>Stony Brook is actually a difficulty university to attend, I believe it ranks around 52nd in the public schools, with a 50% acceptance rate and 1070-1270 SAT range. </p>

<p>Believe it or not, I have found the courses very stimulating. Despite the fact that I don't find my peers to be incredibly intellectual, if you read about their accomplishments, its rather extraordinary. An enormous percentage go on to medical school, and undergraduate research rates are very high. I think that the problem lies in the fact that 4 of my 5 courses are intro, none of which are less than 100 students. This is where a large public tends to be unfulfilling. It is bureaucratic, it is impossible to get in contact with the professors, and while TAs don't teach the courses they are the true educators (putting together review sessions, meeting for office hours, etc.) </p>

<p>So while Stony Brook may pull in professors such as Noam Chomsky, I can't imagine that anyone would actually have the opportunity to speak with a distinguished member of the faculty. </p>

<p>My advice is to seek a college that stimulates the mind. Stony Brook may be stimulating now, but I certainly could not stay there for 4 years! I am taking an upper level Sociology course, and even that isn't doing the trick. Its interesting because I make something of it, but its not interesting if you can't discuss.</p>

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<p>Thank you Marite for saying what I meant way more effectively. It is not just learning from peers at a similar level of intellectual curiousity and motivation but learning AMONG them. My D also is in sections and also is doing an engineering project with a group of five kids, as well as did problem sets with them...and has discussed writing papers with others still. It is not all that different than high school. My kids have been fine at our high school as long as they were in the hardest track classes both in terms of the level of challenge in the coursework but also the other types of students with whom they were learning. Both my kids have said that when they had to take "untracked" required classes like Personal Wellness or Driver's Ed. and it was among a much wider range of students, many of whom, for instance, are not college bound, many who do not care or pay attention and they really did not like the classroom atmosphere at all. One would do a project presentation and nobody would respectfully pay attention, etc. I realize that is just high school but there was a clear difference being in a class with kids who were motivated, into discussions etc. compared to easier tracked classes. They really did not like middle school classes for this very reason as well. I think now that my child is in college, one thing she does like is being among students who while diverse, enjoy challenging courses and are motivated learners. Not every kid will care about this but some do. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Islandmom, did your D look at Trinity (San Antonio)? I've heard it is a great school and sounds like a match as well. My S was considering UT until we visited and he decided he wanted a more "peaceful" setting. My S is applying to 2 reaches and one match so far. I'm having to nudge him to apply at UT for a backup in case he decides to stay instate (his sisters live in Austin and are hoping he'll end up there).</p>

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<p>Susan-</p>

<p>Re; Brown.....yes, it's still #2. He's not talking much now as he's focused on the ED app. But, since his HS needs the final list of RD schools next week, I'll be interested to see what schools are on it. I do know that Tufts is back on, after being off (I thought). GW and Emory are on. PSU and Mich have had their apps for about a month. No replies yet. </p>

<p>I didin't mean to imply that I really think Penn is settling. LOL.....that would be ridiculous. I was merely stating how I feel about kids applying without the stats, thinking they have have what it takes.....not only for Penn, but Wharton. Of course, the adcom always has the final say. It's hard to explain....but when your child works so hard to accomplish so much, you just don't want anyone discounting it. A few weeks ago I had a conversation with a parent of a 10th grader from our school. The conversation turned to college apps for my son and he said "one tihng that I have to say about this school is that they do a damn good job of getting kids into Ivies - 30% of each year's class" I was surprised at how I felt after that comment, almost defensive of the work of the students. I was thinkng "the school can't get anyone in who doesn't deserve to go!". I know this father meant well, but I felt like son's possible admission would be discounted by someone thinking it was the accomplishment of the school, not the student. I'm not saying this is logical thought...it's just part of my thought process surrounding all of this.</p>

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<p>Students learn outside the classroom too. At meals, in late night discussions, wherever they interact their intellectual caliber is reflected. This isn't to say that brainy kids at top schools don't occasionally turn down the voltage and watch crummy movies or football. It's just that when someone makes an arcane joke or an obscure reference most everyone in the room gets it. Water seeks its own level and at big State universities and less selectives smart and quirky kids can and do find a circle of sympaticos; however, at the schools that we're talking about (I'd like to find a less snobbish way to describe them) there are just more like-minds, more people on the same intellectual wave length. This is the intangible aspect of "fit" but if you read the How's your freshman doing? thread you'll see it described again and again.</p>

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<p>Islandmom - Sounds to me like your daughter has looked at several different options, found a school that she thinks she would be happy at and is done. That is OK. Why stress her or you when she has what she wants? Ultimately, if she is unhappy - which could happen to anyone no matter how many schools they apply to - she can look at transferring. Ultimately, none of know how well our kids will do at a particular school until they actually get there. What I sense, however, is that most of our kids are happy where they end up and my guess is that will be true for your daughter as well.</p>

<p>As far as how other students affect our learning, there are several things to consider. Some students are more social learners and others are more solitary. Social learners (and I am definitely one of those) benefit most from group discussions and the input of other students. However, solitary learners, like my eldest son, don't really care at all about the input from others and are not big fans of group discussion or group projects. It is important not to impose your own preferences on your child.</p>

<p>The other important consideration is that there is not much in how schools evaluate incoming students that indicate whether or not they will contribute much to those around them. The brilliant student who has limited social skills may not be nearly as beneficial in the classroom as the less skilled student who is highly inquisitive and asks a lot of questions. I also think that as a rule, students who attend private schools MAY be more invested and interested in their education than those attending state school only because of the great difference in costs. (Please don't flame me here. I don't mean that those who attend state schools aren't invested, only that if students are only going through the motions to get a degree, they are more inclined to attend a state school that costs much less.) Thus, the experience of Ilcapo. Unfortunately, the SAT or high school GPA does not measure the amount of intellectualy curiosity one has, the willingness to participate in class discussions, etc. And I have known a number of very smart people who couldn't be bothered with those of us less bright because we took a bit longer to get it. </p>

<p>I also think that highly selective schools are just the perfect place for some kids. But just because your kid is exceptionally bright does not mean that he/she will feel comfortable at a highly selective university. Let them look at many different options and be comfortable with what they ultimately choose as being right for them.</p>

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<p>Momsdream,
I have good vibes about your son at Penn. No matter what, the rest of his list is full of really great schools. I obviously know Tufts, Browm. and Penn quite well. My younger D is an applicant as well at PSU and UMich, though getting into the programs she is trying for is harder than getting into the colleges itself. </p>

<p>I know you did not think your son was "settling" by applying to Penn. I only meant that the differential of not going for the other Ivies is not all that great, or at least not what Islandmom's D's query involved. I am glad that your son does not have "Ivy on the brain" but went for which schools are well suited to his preferences. </p>

<p>I don't think you need to worry that those with so called lesser "credentials" will discount the admittance of those like your son who have the stats. I think the adcoms overall take who they think meets their criteria of what they are looking for. Yes, I do understand how there are those out there who think they have what it takes to get into selective schools who are NOT realistic. But to me, who cares? Like you say, the adcoms have the final say. Your child will get in somewhere really great because like you said, he worked hard to get to this point. Others may have worked hard too but often some are not realistic in the odds or overestimate their credentials or simply are not informed of the state of selective college admissions. The main thing would be to help inform those of not only what it takes to get in these days but even IF you have those credentials, it is not necessarily a ticket in! </p>

<p>I understand the convo you had with the parent of a tenth grader at your school. SOME think that if you go to a "better" high school, it IS like a ticket into a good college. Where I live, some parents opt to send their kids away to seletive boarding prep schools (barely have private day schools in this state) with the motivation that if they send their kid to a really good prep school, they can then get into a really good college. Now, before I get bombarded here with things being thrown my way, I am not knocking prep school! But I do sometimes question this motivation for the reason to send your kid to one. I would prefer to hear someone send their kid away to a school like that because it is the best fit for their child's educational needs, but not so they can get into a "good" college. If they would learn better in such a school or there are inherent educational benefits there, that is one thing. But the notion of needing to send your kid to a "better" school away from here than the one in town so that they can fare well with college, is not the right reason to me. </p>

<p>I have always felt it was the kid who got into college, not the school they came from. Yes, a very good high school can help prepare a student and can just give him/her an excellent background. And yes, many prep schools have great ties as "feeders" to selective colleges. But ya know, even kids from unknown high schools, who are also just as fine a student, can also get into a very good college. That is my view on that. I feel like my child is who she is and she got where she got based on her hard work and achievement, and the college she went to might have been the same no matter what high school she had attended. However, that said, I must admit, my daughter was just telling me today that she has no idea where the stats of the admitted class at her college came from that delineate how many came from public and how many came from private schools because despite what the stats say on that, she says almost everyone she has met at college so far went to private school and there is a running joke among friends when they finally run into another kid who went to public like she did! </p>

<p>Anyway, that father likely did not mean the school got the child into college but that the high school had a good track record which it surely does compared to our public school. But of course, you have to look at who is in your student body compared to our school and it all makes sense. The finest in our school can rival the students at a prep school but we just have fewer kids of that sort in our school than in an entire prep schoo full of that type of student. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, as an aside, I have to tell you that a dozen college freshmen girls who my D went to HS with are in the room right now ,getting together for the first time since August. They go to a variety of colleges (no others at Ivies) and ALL sound quite happy with their schools. That is what matters. This will be you guys next year at this time. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Momrath:</p>

<p>You are so right! One of the great things about math camp, my S said, was having a group of friends who had the same zany sense of humor and got his rather "academic jokes."</p>