<p>Shrinkrap, sometimes, yes, it does…</p>
<p>But I get a little weary of the political correctness. Sometimes, to get a true reaction and a real answer, you need to be a little provacative… And sometimes, the truth just needs to be said when nobody else will say it.</p>
<p>Props to you for being direct though. I actually respect you more for that than those who speak in “generalizations” to avoid conflict… That’s like eating cold oatmeal… Yuk!</p>
<p>John.</p>
<p>“overgeneralizations”? Talk about The Pot Calling the Kettle Black. You have posted almost nothing but stereotypes and offensive generalizations, and then when people answer those generalizations with a counter-generalization (which is an appropriate parallel way to respond), you call them essentially yucky cowards.</p>
<p>It sounds as if you’re not only new to CC, you’re apparently new to genuine and respectful dialogue as well.</p>
<p>Again, people who attempt to control the definitions (which isn’t only the OP) are in an enviable position to manipulate the conversation, but for those of us smart enough to see through the transparency, it just looks like what it really is: manipulating language.</p>
<p>Thanks epiphany. That certainly was refreshing…</p>
<p>New to respectful dialogue? No, but I am new to CC and some of the thin skinned elitists that seem to frequent this forum…</p>
<p>They aren’t hard to find… </p>
<p>John.</p>
<p>Look, John, I am sympathetic to the annoyance you seem to be experiencing. I am also far too blunt and honest, particularly online-and when I first started on some of the forums here, well, I had some issues. Felt like I said one obvious thing, no big deal, and when everybody jumped on me I became angry and defensive. Then when I reread what I wrote, I realized that I’d actually sounded rather brusque and made assumptions about others…and many of these people know and like each other, like a community of friends that I was offending.</p>
<p>So I took a break from cc for awhile, lurked but didn’t post for some time, and then tried it again. Now I reread what I write, trying to be more careful to not make comments that could be taken as personally insulting-particularly towards childraising, that really upsets people. It is rather difficult to tell if someone is posting with a smile, or just trying to be argumentative and superior. I realized that I needed to be careful how I wote, if I wanted people to concentrate on my message and not get personal. And you can get away with being brutually honest without worrying about insulting people if you stay on the elections and politics forum…most everyone is cranky, direct and biased over there! Including me. Like you, I detest political correctness, sometimes it’s really hard to resist sarcasm…but you can’t delete your posts! So sometimes after I write them, I just hit the backspace button.</p>
<p>Thank you, busdriver, for such a reasonable and insightful post. In my thin-skinned opinion, John, you seem to have gone beyond respectful dialogue in a number of your responses to folks who disagree with you. Somehow, the percentage of politically correct generalizers you object to here have managed to help generate almost 2 million posts on the Parents Board in the past 5 years. The majority of these are useful in guiding others through an expensive, confusing, emotionally fraught process. On this forum especially, folks are quite willing to post “the truth,” and most don’t need to resort to confrontational language to express it. Why is that?</p>
<p>
Probably they aren’t. In my (again thin-skinned) opinion, folks who decry the “oversensitivity” of others are often rather insensitive themselves. “Insensitive” is not a synonym for “refreshingly honest” in my thesaurus. I’m thankful for those many posters who don’t find it necessary to engage in conflict in order to get the word out about the parent’s take on college admissions. The Elections and Politics board is always there for those who don’t find enough conflict IRL.</p>
<p>“Felt like I said one obvious thing, no big deal, and when everybody jumped on me I became angry and defensive. Then when I reread what I wrote, I realized that I’d actually sounded rather brusque and made assumptions about others…and many of these people know and like each other, like a community of friends that I was offending…”</p>
<p>Yea, I can see that. Bus, that’s good advice. On other fourms where I’ve been a member for 10+ years now, there is a pretty tight community there too. Guess I should have expected that here.</p>
<p>Just seems that so many here are focused on things that don’t matter much to me. Maybe it’s the wrong forum for me to participate in. My first impression here is that there was an overwhelming and frankly, unhealthy amout of concern for status. And quite a lot of carefully disguised bragging. My first post here was about my daughter, who did very well on the SAT’s and I was looking for help in figuring out where to start looking at schools with those test scores. Plenty of folks (more than 50%) felt the need to tell me first that she wasn’t all that smart. Some went on to make helpful suggestions while many just took the opportunity to downplay her stats. I found that VERY offensive, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. It surely smacked of elitism to me. And being from a very modest background, that’s not something I tolerate well at all. </p>
<p>So yea, I recognize part of the problem is the baggage I bring. But when I get pounced on for being honest, folks shouldn’t be surprised when I defend myself. But I will consider whether I want to be “more PC” here, or whether I just leave this forum alone for good…</p>
<p>Frazzled, you help illustrate my point. Why would you automatically assume I was talking about you when I said “thin-skinned?” Are you thin skinned? If so, then maybe you need to go back and regroup and be a little more objective.</p>
<p>I found the politics forum, and I posted one “rant” over there to get that off my chest. However, my (initial) posts here have merely asked for help. I didn’t realize that by saying I found Rice U. to be “stuffy” I would set off a whole volley of heat-seeking missles… what the he!! is wrong with saying “I” thought Rice was “stuffy?” To me, the overreactions were the problem, not my personal assessment of the school. I’m entitled to that last time I checked. How hard is it to say “I don’t agree with that.” Instead, they had to come along and tell me how “wrong” I was. As if they are the judge of that… ha, ha.</p>
<p>Anyways, we’ve gotten well off track now. I’ll try to “play nice” and be a little more PC if and when I post here… </p>
<p>I’ll be glad to contribute as well, but I can just imagine the flames I’ll have to defend myself against (and already have in fact) when I post my impressions of some of the schools my daughter and I have visited. </p>
<p>Regarding the topic of this thread, this forum is loaded with parents who are involved. Some DEEPLY involved in thier kids’ lives. That’s a good thing - to a point. But I can tell you that neither of my two oldest (who are thinking about college at the moment) think that their mom and I are not doing enough. If you were to ask them, they’d surely say they would prefer to handle things on their own, thank you. And that’s how we raised them to be. I’m the type of parent that will encourage the heck out of them to solve their own problems and do their own research and make their own decisions. But in the meantime, I’ll be researching alongside them to see if what they are saying makes sense to me…</p>
<p>John.</p>
<p>
It may smack of elitism, but you’d need a longer history to really sort that out. Some here ARE elite and some are not. There’s a pretty wide range, as you can see from the communities that spring up within invdividual threads. There are people who’ve been to top schools, people who are in love with their state schools, people looking for a bargain, and people for whom money isn’t an object. I’m uneducated, as is my husband, and we’re learning from the kindness and wisdom of the folks here on cc, some of whom have become personal friends in real life, to help our kids do better than we did. I think the common theme is that we love our kids passionately and just want what’s best for them. It’s also a great thing to find a community with a shared interest and a history of generosity.</p>
<p>
There’s some snobbery (but I find it most among the kids who post here), but among the parents there’s a sort of communal scar from the heartbreaking posts year after year from kids who got shut out becuase they weren’t realistic. I think that sometimes translates into pessimism, but it’s more about protecting families from disappointment than it is about putting anyone down. A lot of the parents are looking at the context of kids within unbelievably accomplished or hooked applicant pools outside of their home areas.</p>
<p>limbwalker- You are very good at mis-characterizing what YOU have posted. You did not simply call Rice “stuffy”- you said it was an “inner city” school surrounded by crowded housing. Your assessment of Rice was clearly going to be challenged by posters who are very familiar with the school and, for the benefit of future readers who might want information about Rice, a more accurate portrayal was presented. You have attacked me and other posters directly and then claim that YOU are the victim. I don’t think so.</p>
<p>You are free to post your impressions of schools, but what you seem to be seeking is validation of your interest in a second tier state school. You have gotten that validation from a couple of posters who have attended the school, and you have also gotten opinions that the school might not be the best fit for your academically accomplished daughter. Into this you read that many of us are overly concerned about prestige.</p>
<p>We are all interested, as I assume you are, in helping our kids (or others, if our kids are through the process) select a school at which they will thrive socially and academically. That need not be the highest school on the USNWR list. You have made absurd remarks about prestige being associated with whether or not the school has a football program. You have attacked posters who have advised that employment opportunities after graduation as well as grad school placement are things to consider. In summary, you are not receptive to any of the advice posters might give, unless it validates what you have already decided- which is that your introverted daughter who doesn’t want to go away from home might do best to choose a second tier state school because that school is offering a lot of $$$. That’s fine, but don’t expect all of us to clap our hands.</p>
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<p>quilty as charged. But not all kids are like you and Brownie, capable of handling it all beautifully with little or no input or help. My kids needed different amounts of help with the process. One needed no help at all. All were raised in the same household with the same rules and expectations. They were just different people. One, who could never have handled the process without lots and lots of supervision and aid, never needed help with schoolwork and was more than capable of college (graduated Phi Beta Kappa - brag brag)… just not of getting there on his own. We could have let him crash and burn because of his distaste for filling in forms but imho that would have created a lot of really unnecessary problems for him and for my husband and me. Instead he is self-supporting in a large city far away from where we live. I still sometimes help him with forms. In my experience (and I am old!) even kids in the same family frequently need different kinds of parenting. It is not one size fits all, even though years ago before I actually had children I really believed there was a formula that would create successful kids. Now I think luck has as much to do with how kids turn out as anything else. Some (many?) will disagree since a certain parenting style was wildly successful in their own family. And I am always interested in parenting styles and advice – from those whose kids are completely and successfully raised (when is that exactly??), who can actually speak from the other end of the process.</p>
<p>I am still hanging around here waiting for the first cc helicopter grandparents threads.</p>
<p>limbwalker: congrats on your daughter’s scholarship! That is wonderful. And I hope we all feel the colleges our kids end up going to are the absolute best in the country. In my experience people on this board try very hard not to criticize any school without very good reason because someone’s kid does go there. And for them that is the best school ever. I went back and read the post about her SATs and think you misinterpreted because you haven’t seen several threads about students with perfect SAT scores and GPAs end up with absolutely no college acceptances. IMHO people were honestly trying to help you. Some may have been a bit blunt.</p>
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<p>That pretty much does, it zoos. We have learned from each other (I know you have inspired me to consider other aspects of things on many occasions) and do the best we can to consider the viewpoints of others. We all come from different places and no one can truly understand the family dynamics of someone else’s family, especially from information shared on an internet forum.</p>
<p>momofwildchild, you put it very succinctly in post 108-- thank you!</p>
<p>
Absolutely true–although the flip side is that it can be enormously liberating and comforting to recognize your own kid in other people’s stories of their kids and to realize, I’m not alone in this. There are other families going through exactly the same thing. Of course it’s never really exactly the same thing, but it can be close enough to facilitate deeper and slower breathing at key points along the way. :)</p>
<p>Simple answer: it works for us. I have always viewed my parental role as Coach, Mentor, and Administrative Assistant. My daughter’s job is to achieve as much as she can in terms of academics, music, other personal interests, and growth/development as a fine person. This keeps her very busy and productive.</p>
<p>So if I can lighten her load in terms of preliminary research and gathering info – both of which she is very capable of doing herself, but time-challenged – then it makes sense. Also, I enjoy it. And we both enjoy going down this road together. I’m the researcher/consultant; she’s the decision-maker. Works great.</p>
<p>
Why, you’re welcome! 
I include myself in that description because I find your tone negative and disrespectful, like those other thin-skinned posters you were talking about. Didn’t you mean me?</p>
<p>I guess I’m wondering why you seem to be having such difficulty with the other posters here. Most people who come to CC do so because they like it, and can find what they’re looking for more efficiently and pleasantly here than anywhere else. Very few dissatisfied customers.</p>
<p>Many, many well written, respectful, thoughtful posts here. This is a wonderful community of both like and not like-minded people. That is what makes is interesting and enjoyable. Busdriver, frazzled and zoos’s posts were particularly well written. Kudos.</p>
<p>John, I truly hope you will take the feedback you are getting here to heart, and give it due consideration. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion or being honest, but there is a difference between being honest and being unnecessarily brutally, insultingly honest. The latter tends to offend people and puts them on the defensive in return. So does telling someone what they think or what they feel. To speak from personal experience, I am one who will run that gamut from gentle, thoughtful opinion-sharing or inquiring to a direct, blunt, harsh response. Because I am willing to defend myself and others, many posters contact me back-channel and ask for my assistance in responding because they feel intimidated by a post or poster. But I digress…</p>
<p>You acknlowedged above that perhaps your difficult upbringing influences your demeanor here. That is insightful, and is of course true for most of us. While some of the discussions here do at times take on the feel of a schoolyard brawl, for the mostpart that really isnt necessary, and fortunately the “gloves off” figinting is sequestered largely in the minimally moderted pol. forum. Just as some posts may push a button for you, please accept that the reverse may be true for others. In the Rice example you cited above, if you had merely chosen to tell MOWC, in response to her genuine query as to how your dau’s visit went, you could have said “it wasnt for her” or even that you felt in your opinion that it was “stuffy”. Instead, you went on to insult the students, the accoutrements, the landscaping and the buildings (for being too attractive, LOL-- that remionded me of when my late MIL returned a meal because it had too many french fries!), and imply that it was full of rich trust fund kids Rice (which is not based in fact). These cracks and insults were unnecessary and those of use who have had an extraordinarily positive experience with the school would understandibly respond to your comments.</p>
<p>So again, welcome to cc. But please consider that basic n’ettiquette doesnt make you a pansy. It makes you polite and respectful. Courtesy and manners are ok. So are thought-provoking questions, and even tete-a-tetes. Best of luck to you and your daughter in whatever school she chooses.</p>
<p>
Okay, well that was your first mistake, John! LOL!<br>
Come on, I’m kidding. Understand that the E&P area is lightly-modded. What is interesting is that some people who disagree with something you said on the E & P board have the time and grudge-holding capability to follow you around from post to post, thread to thread. It’s remarkable, really. Do they have a little vendetta list? Do they PM each other for stroking and validation? It would not surprise me at all. </p>
<p>Your second mistake is buying into the “this is a pretty tight community” bit. Obviously, someone on CC probably said that to you, to control your opinion. It’s a tactic straight out of the Mean Girls playbook – ganging up on the outlier. “All of us agree, so you must be wrong.” “We are all friends here.” It’s nonsense, John.</p>
<p>I’ve read practically nothing on this thread. I only saw your comment because it was on the top of the last page. But I can surmise what has been said to you, based on what you wrote.</p>
<p>You are just as free to post what you want, however you want, and in any part of CC you want without the opinion junta persecuting you. If anything needs to be modded, let the moderators do it. Equally, people are free to disagree with you, ruggedly, and in packs sometimes. I suggest you modify your comments only as your experience changes, and not as a result of being cyber-bullied. Ignore anything that doesn’t help or apply to you. Life is too short.
Nah, don’t do that. Flouncing is unbecoming. Leave or don’t leave, your choice, but this comment is just unnecessary. Don’t be more PC unless you actually ‘feel’ more PC.
And “baggage”? Who doesn’t have baggage? Only people who want to blow up a plane…:D</p>
<p>I love the limb-walkers of the world! To quote Fleetwood Mac “GO YOUR OWN WAY”</p>
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<p>John, I remember your first posts about your daughter, and the response. For what it’s worth, many of us here have gone through a similar rude awakening: parent to a smart kid who is recognized by peers and teachers as brilliant and gifted and destined to go far. Then we come into the larger world, and learn that as wonderful as the child is, there are a lot of other wonderful kids in the world. Many are even more wonderful. The accomplishments and talents that we and our school community found so unusual, and sure to put our child on the road to full scholarships and admissions to any school they chose, were more common than we’d ever expected.</p>
<p>All in all, this is a good thing. We need as many bright and talented and hardworking people as we can get. But not all of them are going to be offered admission to a certain handful of schools. It’s another good thing for parents and students to learn this early on. Some might call this being refreshingly direct, and some might call this offensive elitism 
I find it difficult but incredibly useful, and I hope you and your daughter will, as well.</p>
<p>Parents don’t need to be involved at all IF kids come to CC often and figure out exactly what needs to be done. If someone can claim that he made every major decision on his own at 18 and everything turned out to be perfect, rather than “I wish …”, please share with us your story.</p>
<p>
I can’t resist pointing out that in the song, these words were sung not approvingly but accusingly: “You can go your own way, you can call it another lonely day.”</p>
<p>And I really don’t think John is being cyber-bullied at all. It seems to me that his posts in this thread have expressed a “let me tell you all what the real world is like” attitude (for instance, in post #58: “…REAL LIFE social interaction. Not the vanilla make-believe variety”). People naturally don’t respond well to that, because we all think our world is just as real as anybody else’s, and our experience just as valuable. I think the responses have mostly been courteous and accepting, if a bit exasperated. </p>
<p>I actually admire John’s thinking on many fronts and have made some similar decisions, such as sending my son to an inner city public elementary school (though we did our homework first and made sure it was a good and a safe school). But it’s one thing to disagree with other people’s thinking, or even with their principles; it’s another to talk as if you are in touch with reality and they aren’t. You can’t expect to do that and not annoy people.</p>
<p>I agree with nightchef. This is hardly an exmaple of cyber-bullying. Most people on CC are open to legitimate, diplomatically stated criticism. But most people on and off CC respond naturally defensively when wrongly stereotyped, categorized – and especially when that’s based on misinformation, under-information, or just plain sloppy ignorance.</p>
<p>People who truly say what they mean (if they don’t mean to stereotype or generalize) tend to be treated respectfully by most educated, thoughtful people. What gets people into trouble is when they in fact do mean to stereotype, or don’t think before posting something rashly. (Hey, I’ve been accused of that, too, though not recently.)</p>
<p>It also can be dangerous territory to assume that you know – from an internet discussion forum – what any person’s parenting habits really are. They do not equate, necessarily, as has been said repeatedly, with what is written or the amount that is written by that parent. Because people appear to obsess on line does not mean that they obsess IRL.</p>