<p>Well said, oldfort.</p>
<p>
Many of us do that very thing. My kid is in a very sought-after public school that happens to be more than diverse, in a tough neighborhood of NYC and beset with gang problems. The principal is in the habit of walking her kids through the neighborhood in her high heels, but had to cancel all sports and after school activities because of several shootings and stabbings. My kid is in a great program with lots of amenities. It is not clear to me at all that the presence of the kids in those programs is a benefit to anyone but themselves. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on that.
We chose the public school because it’s a perfect fit for my daughter and couldn’t be happier, but it certainly had nothing to do with furthering a political agenda or elevating my view of myself. I’m in total agreement with the philosophy that the bigggest problem faced by underprivileged kids of whatever race or socioeconomic status is lack of parental involvement.</p>
<p>Many threads on cc, or thread-openers, like to set up, implicitly or explicitly, artificial dichotomies. This is a classic example of one: Be involved = cripple your child, dooming him permanently to a life of dependence. When the person opening the thread controls the assumptions, the responders are forever made to feel & speak defensively, lest they be assigned to the unacceptable label fabricated by the OP.</p>
<p>Hey, I can set it up to, and it will both be and sound just as offensive:</p>
<p>Being uninvolved = abandon your child, rob your child of a sense of security & support from the person(s) who chose to bring him into existence. Pretty damning, right?</p>
<p>Yes, actually, this is about “me,” representationally. Not that I give two cents for the OP’s broad, generalized, amazingly shallow observation and false equation. I give two cents for the concept, and I feel very angry about people who sit in judgment about just what it does and doesn’t mean to “be involved.”</p>
<p>Every day in my work I see examples of uninvolved parents, and the consequences of that. Every. Single. Day. And these (while I very much appreciated oldfort’s sensitive contribution just now) are never parents/families of very low incomes, from very bad neighborhoods. These are middle-class and upper-middle-class families who assume that the schools, and I, will not just teach their children but raise their children. And what happens? These relatively well-off young people are failing their classes, have zero sense of internal direction (lacking any external guidance), zero discipline, and are headed – in a competitive economy – for failure at college and/or the work force. </p>
<p>You see, children actually live at home. They may give the appearance of not wanting to be there, of not “needing” direction, of even voicing that they “don’t need” parents, adults, teachers to find their way in life. </p>
<p>So I can set up an even more offensive dichotomy: parents willfully uninvolved in their children’s lives lack the courage, mettle, initiative, & character to do the hard work of parenting & to thus show their children the value of hard work. How does that grab you?</p>
<p>Any parent not ready to shape, structure, and guide is not ready to parent. Children do not become independent in a vacuum; they become independent within a visible model of leadership from respectful guides at home and elsewhere.</p>
<p>Well, obvioiusly my “run away from problems” comment touched a nerve with some…</p>
<p>“John, I’m curious: how do you feel about the option under No Child Left Behind for parents to yank their kids from failing schools and send them somewhere else? Is that running away from problems?”</p>
<p>Yes, it is. Especially if the same parents that would remove their kids are the ones that never lifted a finger to make a difference in the first place. And many times, the problems are perceived and not real. Tell me, how are we supposed to fix our public school problems if the parents with the means to do so just pull their kids out of the school and leave? That’s not addressing the problem, it’s avoiding it. Most of the time, the children of those parents are the better students, so the school’s overall test scores suffer and the school or district starts a downward spiral that it cannot get out of. And who’s left there to pick up the pieces and move forward? What means, education and training do they have to do that? </p>
<p>“not my problem…” - a very popular answer in our society these days. </p>
<p>If a street becomes too riddled with potholes, which of you just start using another street, and which of you pick up the phone or pay a visit to the road dept. to ask when the street is scheduled to be re-paved? Running away from problems is part of our new “disposable culture.” Our ancestors laid the foundation for the cities and towns we live in by staying, struggling, fighting and building communities. Not by moving away. 150 years ago, the fight was with the environment, the Native Americans (unfortunately) or the local outlaws. Today the fight is with the politicians, administrators and the gangs that create these problems our children have to deal with. By pulling kids out of public schools and running for the highlands, we may be taking care of ourselves but what are we saying to our neighbors? That they don’t matter? </p>
<p>I’m certainly not saying that some here haven’t tried to stay and fight. Oldfort told me she did, for a while. Each of us has to decide whether it’s worth the cost and what we’re willing to see the change we want. </p>
<p>“As a parent, it is my job to make sure my kid sfeels safe and secure. I wouldn’t use them as pawns to further my personal political or social agendar…”</p>
<p>And I hardly think that’s a fair assessment. Is that what you think I’m saying? </p>
<p>John.</p>
<p>
As I said, my kid is in an inner-city public school that is very sought after (and thus overcrowded!). The parents in this specific school who made it so desirable happen to be poor and almost exclusively minority. They are more than capable of doing great things. I guess I don’t think that there’s an inherent benefit from the presence of wealthier, whiter kids in the instance of this specific school. In my community, it’s far more likely to be the wealthier schools (of which my older D is a graduate) with serious problems along the lines of drinking, driving recklessly, drinking and driving because it just happens to be that we have a lot of parents with more money than attention. Not true everywhere, of course. Just here. I have always said and will continue to say that my kid has benefited greatly from her presence at the school but I’m not sure what benefit she confers.</p>
<p>Ephiphany, post #83, on the effects of uninvolved parents–</p>
<p>I am in a very small (750 students in K-12) school district. I am currently on the board of a several-year school improvement project. We work closely with the administrators and lead teachers. Wow-did you echo their exact sentiments!! They state they have no problem with “hovering/overactive/current catch-word” parents. They are very forceful in their comments that they’d much rather have this than the clueless, and more importantly, don’t give a damn or as referenced above in #85, more money than attention parents. We are by far in the “don’t give a damn” category though.</p>
<p>We are struggling mightily with how to change a community’s culture when it is ingrained for many that education doesn’t matter, going to college doesn’t matter, small size is an excuse for mediocrity, etc., and doing well/being smart is seen as not “being cool”.</p>
<p>“Leaving” the problem isn’t a choice–there are no private schools in my area…I agree with the above–being involved doesn’t necessarily correlate with handicapping/stunting a child’s development.</p>
<p>I mentioned this thread at dinner last night. When I asked D whether she thought I was too involved, she answered in the affirmative. When I asked for an example, the first one she gave was that I knew the exact hour when U. of Chicago would release its early action decisions. While I had not seen any harm in this, she considered it overbearing. She wanted to decide how and when to tell us the outcome. She wanted to decide how and when to celebrate (or grieve). When we know exactly when decisions come out, she loses the small amount of control she has. That is just one example. The more I thought about it, the more I realized how suffocating the application process must be for applicants. They hear about it before, during and after school. When they come home and try to relax, they see us posting on CC, checking out college web sites, etc. </p>
<p>The funny (or sad) thing is that D2 chimed in that we are positively mellow compared to the typical parents at her magnet school, but that is a topic for another day.</p>
<p>Off topic from being involved with the apps process…
but to the question of taking students out of troubled schools etc…</p>
<p>I substitute teach—and what I see in the public schools in our area is shocking. I would much rather deal with an “over-invoved” parent and coach them to give room for their student’s growth–then see 8th graders with 2nd and 3rd grade reading and math skills…, violence, bad attitudes etc. I just spent 2 1/2 weeks at a middle school and during that time, a teacher was assaulted (child arrested), the 6th grade broke out in a riot during lunch, and I wrote 18 referrals for discipline in the last 6 days! This is within 1/4 mile of my students prvate school in a nice suburb.</p>
<p>I asked the head administrators how do we fix such a broken public school system–and they said the bottom line is that unless the family unit is healthy …schools cannot begin to think they can fix it…so much of the trouble comes from the home s(behavior/respect/responsibility) and the parents role. There are so many restrictions on schools and teachers and what they can do with failing kids…social promotions reign. KIids often don’t care if they get discipline referrals.
Many will get a “certificate of attendance” when they leave highschool–not a diploma…which is worthless. </p>
<p>We have told our children that we expect a certain level of performance (grades) --they attend a private school–We have had stern talks with our 13 yr old that he’d be going to the local public is he doesn’t want to take advantage of the gift of this private school–iots too costly to waste it. But the truth is I would be terrified to have him at the local middle school…the educational standards are so low and the environment so toxic…it would destroy him.</p>
<p>I don’t think parents of the kids who are trying to get a great education realize just how bad it is inside some of these schools and don’t realize what their students face on a daily basis.
It is scary. As an adult, I did worry for my personal safety.
By the end of the 2+ weeks of that job–I was worried that some of the kids would assault me in the parking lot for writing them up for discipline problems…</p>
<p>I think if many of the parents of the diligent students saw what was happening–they SHOULD be screaming at the local adminsitration and governing body …it shouildn’t be tolerated.
Instread, troubled kids from troubled neighborhoods are bussed in. These kids get subsidized meals, are failing school, and living in HUD housing. Our taxes are paying for them now and sadly my kids will be paying for their children’s children 20 yrs from now… When it comes to remedying the problem…</p>
<p>It starts at home</p>
<p>John, any school which is considered to have “failed” under NCLB has real and serious problems. The students in these schools usually don’t have the resources to flee to a private school. They’re located in poor areas. The student’s parents may have spent years trying to get things fixed, working with the administration, the teachers, their school board reps, the police, all to no avail. And you think that if they’re given a better option after all that, they should stay at a school which has failed them despite their best efforts? </p>
<p>I think you’re dead wrong.</p>
<p>Of course there are people who wouldn’t consider the local public schools because they think they’re academic wastelands, or they worry about their child’s safety. Thing is, sometimes the schools really ARE that bad. Your assuming that a school can always be fixed is just as wrong-headed as people assuming that the local public high school is a h*llhole.</p>
<p>^^ I was in this camp when we lived in Dallas. There were kids who made it through our local public school and did fine, but the odds were not great. We were not going to take that chance. There was simply no comparison between the public schools in our area and the private schools. Call me a school snob, but that’s the way it is.</p>
<p>
We’re all entitled to set our own priorities as parents, based on our own circumstances, aren’t we? We ultimately chose public for my D2 because she got into a great program that is very much apart from the rest of the school while still benefitting from things like grants and corporate partnerships. Most of the kids in her program are from comfortably off and involved families. Not so much the general population, though.</p>
<p>I don’t see anything wrong with letting our children benefit from some of our experience. Many of the parents on here have been through the college experience themselves and so are knowledgable about the process and the schools out there. Helping your child sift through the enormous task of selecting and applying to college is the same as supporting them through any other life experience.</p>
<p>"… But the condescending and arrogant is not intentional.</p>
<p>Maybe, but</p>
<p>“More likely a perception by those with delicate sensibilities…”</p>
<p>I don’t think so.</p>
<p>So many interesting ideas and interpretations on this thread. Don’t know what to respond to, and I SHOULD be doing my work, so…</p>
<p>What I like about CC is how it has opened my eyes to all the different ways “normal” people can be, and I study people 9 but “sick” ones) for a living! Even my husband and I, who on the surface might look like a similar demographic, see our parenting duties differently. I also think it’s very im0prtant to acknowledge how different kids elicit different parenting behavior. </p>
<p>The example that always comes to mind for me is, although some would consider me highly educated and well off, it NEVER occurred to me that I would pay for my kids college. My husband brought it up many years ago, and I was astounded! It also never occurred to me that people should practice for the SAT ( That’s how I wound up on CC; husband said D should take a class…???), think much about choosing a elementary, middle, or high school ( isn’t it based on your zip code ?), or applying to elite schools.</p>
<p>What I don’t like about CC is some of the judgmental stuff, usually indicated by several pages of responses…</p>
<p>shrinkwrap, I don’t set out to offend, but I will defend myself…</p>
<p>by “delicate sensibilities” I mean more delicate than mine, which probably aren’t very delicate. I just say what I mean. I’ve learned that sometimes offends folks. Sorry, but I am who I am. Others find me refreshingly honest. All depends on what one finds “offensive” I guess. Also depends on whether someone assumes I’m talking about them. But then, why would they assume that? Because the shoe fits? </p>
<p>See, once again, I said what I mean… 
</p>
<p>I join these discussion forums to learn, not to develop my fan base… :D</p>
<p>John.</p>
<p>"Because the shoe fits? "</p>
<p>^ Hmmmm…so you are suggesting your ONLY intention was to be honest with that comment? Again, I don’t think so, but on this forum, my opinion is only worth the usual two cents. I am here to learn as well, and I learn AT LEAST as much about forum dynamics, as Ii learn about college admission.</p>
<p>There’s a line between being a good parent and doing everything for your kid. A good indicator of what a parent should do? What your kid ASKS you to do.</p>
<p>I’m a high school senior who just got accepted to my first choice Ivy League college (hence my username). My mother went with me to every college I wanted to visit, some requiring overnight stays in hotels, and drove me to and from my PSAT’s and extracurriculars until I got my license at the beginning of junior year. My dad looked over my application after I was completely finished with it, mainly to make sure I had the parent information right (he changed one word on my entire application). </p>
<p>Why did my parents do these things? Because I ASKED them to. I didn’t want them doing my researching, writing, and decision making for me. So I didn’t ask them to, and they didn’t. I’m extremely grateful to my parents for doing what I asked them to do, and for not doing what I didn’t ask them to do.</p>
<p>And parents, if your kids won’t do these things by themselves, you’re not helping them by doing it for them. You’re just preparing them for a very rude awakening once they arrive at college. Unless, of course, you plan to write all of their college papers for them as well.</p>
<p>“A good indicator of what a parent should do? What your kid ASKS you to do…”</p>
<p>Huh? You’re kidding, right?</p>
<p>I agree in principle with the rest of what you’re saying though… But that’s not he best way to say it. </p>
<p>Earlier in this thread I suggested that a certain member could at least share the blame with her parents for not being more involved. I think you are saying the same thing. That the kid needs to shoulder responsibility. I agree with that. If by 17 a student hasn’t woken up and realized that it’s THEIR life that will be affected, not their parents, there may be no hope for them… At least until life hands them one of those “tough” lessons once they’re on their own… Sometimes then they get it. Some never do…</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, you’re not getting it. My point was that the only ones my comments seemed to upset were the ones that recognized the situation - because it was them… That’s what “if the shoe fits” means…</p>
<p>My kids used to ask me to drive 20 minutes to drop off their schoolwork when they forgot to bring it with them, my answer was no. After a few times, they got the message. So no, I don’t do things for my kids because they asked me to. My kids would prefer if I didn’t wait up for them when they went out, as a matter of fact, they asked me not to. But I still wait up and make sure they didn’t drink when were out.</p>
<p>“Shrinkrap, you’re not getting it.”</p>
<p>Oh please! I’m getting it. Since you are a “big boy”, I will be blunt. I think you are being intentionally provocative. </p>
<p>Does that shoe “fit”?</p>
<p>P.S. I think the kids that post on CC are VERY different from the kids of parents that post on CC. I don’t know if the former even NEED parents… OK; I’m through…</p>
<p>Sorry, I am not reading all of these pages (too many) so I’m just going to throw in my two cents and sorry if I am repeating. </p>
<p>The parents on here have been lifesavers for me. It’s the parents on the College Forum and the individual college forums and the financial aid sections that are often-times WAY too involved with their kids’ college lives. The parents on here are more for people like me- people without parental help. The parents on here have gone through the college experience themselves and have kids that are going through/have gone through the same things that CC kids are going through. However, like most CC kids, I do not have CC parents. </p>
<p>I basically raised myself because my parents worked multiple jobs to keep the family afloat. They didn’t go to college and had no idea what the college application experience would be like nor did they know anything about financial aid. I am used to doing things on my own, but the college things that I just didn’t understand or needed clarification on, or needed help with, I couldn’t turn to them. The CC parents though knew what I was going through and knew exactly how to help, because my parents didn’t. </p>
<p>So, basically, OP, don’t accuse these parents of hovering if you have no idea what you’re talking about. And to the parents on here: thanks for everything! You guys are more helpful than you could possibly imagine.</p>