why can't black people be smart, anyway?

Pre-College Issues High School Life
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<p>Hmm...careful about the generalizations, lje62. I disagree that there "is a lack of family values" among "any underprivileged black." I'd encourage you to examine systemic disadvantages rather than damning the social structure of black families.</p>

<p>As for a "lack of positive black role models," again I have to disagree. Generally, there is a greater prevalence of negative portrayals of black folks than white folks in the media, but who controls most of the media? There is no lack of role models, just an underrepresentation of them. Further, I'd argue that he parameters of a role model are defined by a dominant culture.</p>

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<p>Because historically black people were looked down upon (and heck, we still are!), and white people realize that if they gave us a chance, we could whoop their butts! Think back to slavery -- the reason it was so bad for blacks to be able to read was because the slave owners thought that if they learned, they would rise up against them and take control, the power would be switched.</p>

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<p>^^
I dislike the fact that in order to counter a historical attitude of white superiority, you promote black superiority. </p>

<p>Reverse racism blows.</p>

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<p>so then prove me wrong nickknack
.....give me some examples of positive black role models instead of blaming the control of the mass media.</p>

<p>I make my claims on what I see not only in the media, but my own environment, community and surroundings.</p>

<p>Like ( I thought ) I made clear, the lack of family values is not exclusive to the black community. It is alive and well in all races. I see it is the white community in my area that also places no emphasis on education ...</p>

<p>The truth is, if you are black and want to pursue a higher education, that gives you an advantage over a white student with equal or higher academic stats.
I have experienced it firsthand.
I admire any student that can rise above their negative environment, black, white or other.
I just don't see that blaming others for your obstacles benefits you or anyone else.
The young man that started this thread has a valid point, why not share opinions on that topic ?
Or you can label me racist for stating my view , if that makes you more comfortable.</p>

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<p>It's not that blacks are inherently less smart, or that Jews are inherently more smart. As a group, Jews work harder. That doesn't only apply to life, it also applies to IQ tests. Blacks will typically spend less time analyzing a problem -- also, consider the influences of poverty and a poor home life on one's intelligence. It all goes back to slavery/cultural constructs.</p>

<p>At least that's my guess. </p>

<p>btw, OP, are your initials JS?</p>

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<p>I'm not "getting mad at you." I'm just wondering -why do you have to care what your group is doing? Why can't you just do better for yourself? Instead of wasting time worring about your under-performing peers, why don't you try to perform your best? Then they'll see "hey, he's doing well, and he's black/hispanic/whatever like me. Maybe I can do well too." You can be the catalyst for change in your community. But the worst thing you can do is talk about the past. Honestly, in my view, bringing up slavery/oppresion just depresses people and makes people of other races feel bad. Maybe I just don't understand because I come from a family of immigrants that was never subjected to any of that, but really- it's over. Your parents may not have been able to achieve much because they were born into oppresion. But you were born equal. You can achieve whatever you want. Honestly, you're at a bit of an advantage, thanks to affirmitive action (which I believe people of other races LOVE to complain about unecessarily on this site). </p>

<p>And again- this thread is FULL of stereotypes. Once again, people are either bringing up the stereotypical black- poor, single mother, ghetto, etc. or the super-anomaly black - rich, acts white, drives a nice car. These aren't the only two options. I know plenty of people who don't conform into either of these, myself included. I really think that these 'statistics' either need to clearly group by the location and financial status in addition to race, because it's really unfair being grouped somewhere you don't belong.</p>

<p>Also, I'm really sick of people on this site saying that "they know firsthand" that certain minorities only got in because of affirmative action. Were you part of the admissions committee? NO. Did you read their recs, essays, transcripts, know what they do inside of school and out? NO. Do you know exactly what factors xyz school is looking for in an applicant? NO.</p>

<p>I'm REALLY sorry about your poor white friend- really, I am. I know plenty of people just like them. I WISH socioeconomic status were a part of the admissions process. It would be much fairer. But when you blame me, or other people that you barely know because YOU didn't get into the college you wanted, that's going too far. It's not my fault. I didn't take YOUR space. I'm filling mine.</p>

<p>And if anyone would like to argue about this, please, feel free.</p>

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<p>I am white, but I have noticed the same thing in my school as the OP has in theirs. About 30% of kids at my school are black, and yet, there are literally only two black kids in my first hour, zero in my second, one in my third, and zero in my fourth (all are AP classes). This is pretty sad, and I don't know what the reason for this really is.</p>

<p>But honestly, (please don't call me racist for this, as a assure you I am FAR from it!) it seems like many black students just don't seem to care quite as much about academics and sometimes are just more blatantly rude than other students. Just today, I was standing at line in lunch, and a black girl behind me (who I do not even know) randomly called me a "stupid, preppy white b-word". I did nothing to her! Obviously, I know that not all black people are like this, but it does get annoying that black people can just make fun of white people for being white and nobody even cares.</p>

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<p>I give up on this thread.</p>

<p>You know what? I don't want to be black anymore, if it means people see my skin and automatically think they know who I am, and where I'm from, and how I got there.</p>

<p>And I wouldn't want to be white, if it mean I was left out by affirmative action, or blamed for what my ancestors did, or mistreated by other races and not allowed to do anything about it.</p>

<p>I wouldn't even want to be purple, because after the intial shock, people would probably assume I was a middle aged man in a fat dinosaur suit who sings crappy songs with other stupid dinosaurs on public television.</p>

<p>This is just a messed-up world, isn't it? Or should I say 'ain't it' because I'm black?</p>

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<p>pb, what poor white friend are you talking about??? i don't remember posting that...not here, anyway.</p>

<p>and anyway, i do understand what you're talking about- being an example to others, do for yourself, etc. But I can't help wishing that everyone else was "up here" with me. I don't want us to keep being generally lower on the ladder. I don't want to be one of a well off few while the rest of us have to "scrounge." And if you think that's a bad thing, i can't help questioning where your morals are coming from.</p>

<p>And i don't blame you for anything, i blame those that continue the
entire aff action system.</p>

<p>i knew i would catch flack for posting this, but it's a risk i'm willing to take.</p>

<p>"Maybe I just don't understand because I come from a family of immigrants that was never subjected to any of that, but really- it's over. "
Yes, I know. Slavery, all that, is over. I'm talking about NOW. why haven't we caught up yet, etc?</p>

<p>"Your parents may not have been able to achieve much because they were born into oppresion. But you were born equal. You can achieve whatever you want. " Actually, my parents have been able to achieve alot. We live in an upper middle class neighborhood... they're starting a business... we're definetly not "ghetto" in any sense of the word.</p>

<p>"Also, I'm really sick of people on this site saying that "they know firsthand" that certain minorities only got in because of affirmative action." i don't think people can get in solely on aff action, but i hate how people say that being urm is this major plus in the admission process. If affirmative action was made illegal... if blacks gave more effort... they couldn't say those things, and then we really would be equal.</p>

<p>note-i wrote the original post with speed in mind. by original minority i meant that more of us were here before the asians and other groups migrated. i'm sorry i forgot about the native americans, and hope i didn't seriously offend anyone.</p>

<p>janelle-sounds just like my school...</p>

<p>mj93-does this person live within 30 miles of houston?
singdancetoolazytotypetherest- i hope not, because that's really depressing.</p>

<p>nicknack-ha, i used to live in mn. valid points, though. i'm not sure if i agree, but i see the sense in it.</p>

<p>shimshimhey- our situations are really not so different, you know. i just kind of plugged into my school's ap community so i compete with them instead. but that's what i've been talking about- i don't want to have an advantage at all.</p>

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<p>For some reason I feel obligated to reply, probably because of the direct insult in the title of this thread. Let's look at a situation from the flipside of the OP. I go to a school that is 88% black. From my experience, racial enrollment in the AP classes are 50/50, meaning that about half of the class is black, and the other half represents one of the backgrounds from the other 12% of the school.</p>

<p>Is this proportional at all? No.<br>
Does it matter? No.</p>

<p>Now if I were to go to the school closest to home in my middle-class neighborhood, which is more diverse than my current school, this would play out a little differently. Most of the advanced level classes would be equally mixed. Again, does it matter educationally? No. Can we say that the AP students at this school are better than the AP students at mine? No. Socioeconomic status has a lot to do with it.</p>

<p>I completely agree with almost everything that princessbell has said. I have learned to become colorblind in the sense where I don't let such things get to me. So what if I go to a black school, yet all of my classes are filled with white or hispanic students. Contrary to popular belief by this close-knit community, often times, this community mentality is what brings down "the black community". I understand that there are strong roots of a sense of community blah blah Africa and what not, but in America, and in the 21st century, we happen to live in an individualistic society. There are certain things that one must do for oneself in order to succeed without solely relying on the community as a channel to succeed. This may work at the HBCUs, but elsewhere, it fails. There needs to be a significant individual effort to surpass existing stereotypes. I have trouble with such generalizations that "we need to do X" or "they need to stop doing Z to us".</p>

<p>I assume that when I check off the [ ] African American/Black box on my applications, people will assume that I have dealt with some sort of oppression or struggle. Actually, I have never been a true minority; never disadvantaged because of race. When going back to admissions, this is surely unfair, but I don't think AA plays as large of a role anymore as most CCers would like to think.</p>

<p>The main point that I'm attempting to reach is that we (everyone as a whole, not just a specific race) must be able to overlook such generalizations. The community thing has bothered me for quite some time. If you are so concerned with the ability for others to excel, perhaps you can look at the root of the problem to see if there is something that you are missing, from a socioeconomic and global view, not just racial. But please, don't go as far as saying that black people as a whole aren't smart. Like someone said earlier...who is to measure intelligence and then judge based on such measurements?</p>

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<p>I am Indian and I go to a predominately white school. 70% white, 29% black, 1% other.</p>

<p>I am the only Indian in my senior class. I've taken mostly every AP class that my school allows me to take. There has only been one black kid in my ap classes all 4 years. He has taken: AP Chemistry, AP Calculus BC, AP Literature, and AP US Government (in chronological order). Then there is one junior this year who is taking AP Spanish and AP Psychology.</p>

<p>Then there is me, and another Asian who were in almost every class. Everyone else is white, even though blacks represent 29% of the school population.</p>

<p>And... get this... its a private school. So its not like they are living in the ghetto, etc. Our tuition is $10k a year. Surely, there has to be a reason for >28% of the black students not taking AP classes (and even Honors).</p>

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<p>Actually, I'm Jewish. Let's say somebody would say "Everyone's passing score: 215, for Jews: 190". I would get all pretty damn angry and started suing them since it is kind of offensive to say that 190 of a person of race A is equal to 215 of a person of race B. And you know, Jews are pretty good at suing and being lawyers and generally being anal about laws so I assume CollegeBoard is extremely afraid of messing with Jews.</p>

<p>Back to the topic. Why are ALL world record holders in distance running Black? Who knows. From one side, it is 'cause they are pretty damn gifted genetically. From the other side, the crazy Kenians run triples and don't count morning 3-4 milers as running at all. </p>

<p>My conclusion is that it is possible for a black person to get a Nobel prize or for a white guy to break 13 minutes in marathon. However, the inclination for the hard work necessary for such an accomplishment lies in genes.</p>

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<p>^ Which brings us to the centuries old pseudo-scientific argument about genetic development among races, which could also bring up controversial issues of the supposed "correlation" between genetics and intelligence. Usually I'm pretty civil in debates, but I think you're a ******* retard if you think that genetics determines what race is good at what. That sounds more like the Aryan supremacy drivel propagated by the Nazis. </p>

<p>To the OP, I don't care what race you are. You can't make discriminatory comments based on a few shortsighted observations without taking into account numerous factors such as socioeconomic differences and opportunities. In my school, most of the people in AP classes are your so called "original minorities". What the hell does "original minorities" mean anyway? Did you come up with that term yourself? </p>

<p>The National Achievement Scholarship has a lower cutline partially due to its smaller pool of applicants. For example, the top 2% of 10,000 would generally be higher than the top 2% of a 1000. </p>

<p>I'm sick of ignorant ethnic generalizations that pop up everywhere in my life over the past few days.</p>

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<p>Eh, but you can't ignore the fact that Africans are generally more inclined to endurance? Or else how could you explain the preponderance of black people in running?
I mean, that's like saying that woman and man are genetically same. Which is completely untrue since man is significantly different from woman. Then, evolution makes lots of crazy things and I reckon that intelligence (or at least inclination to gain intelligence through studies and initial tip) is genetically inherited.</p>

<p>PS. I'm not Aryan supremacist. I'm just tired of overwhelming political correctness and the ignorance it forces. I believe there was a professor (I can find the article if you want) who claimed something that didn't really comply with the so-called political correctness. He was fired, I believe, and lost his career. Cases like that kind of tick me off real bad if you ask.</p>

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<p>gryffon- i already apologized for the "original minority" comment, so that part of your post (actually most it) was vaguely rude, besides being unnecessary.</p>

<p>i'll admit that the title, the way i wrote the original post- all were somewhat innappropriate for the touchiness of the topic. but my basic sentiment still stands. as does my goal- i wanted to know what everyone thought. start a dialogue i thought we needed to have at some point.</p>

<p>that said, i never even considered that the size of the nas pool could play into the sf cutoff.</p>

<p>"overwhelming political correctness"
yes, i hate this. you're not allowed to say anything these days.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
i really agree w/ princessbell, it bugs me so much when people generalize, especially the group that is the "minority", caucasions don't generalize like that anymore, and neither should anyone else

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh Lord, please.... just please. If you're a Caucasian, you just generalized right there.</p>

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<p>I agree with mr_chipset: there are genetic differences whether or not you want to admit it or not. I believe as we discover more about genetics we will find that the majority of our talents/personality/etc are genetically based. It doesn't make sense to say "yes, his eyes are shaped that way due to his genes, but his genes absolutely do not affect his personality or intelligence..." That is not to say that centuries of racism or a culture's attitude toward education don't have any influence- of course they do!! I'm just saying you cannot exclude genetics from the equation.</p>

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<p>mr_chipset: Your argument is horribly flawed. First of all- no one ever said a 190 equaled a 215. It's not like college admissions say- Oh, the National Merit Scholar and the National Achievement Scholar are the same. It WOULD be unfair if they said, blacks are NMS at 190 and white are NMS at 215, but that's not true. They have different names for a reason. Also, Jews are not a race. Judaism is a religion. Blacks and Jews are not comparable in that way. </p>

<p>There's a HUGE difference between African Americans, Africans, and Kenyans/other african groups. First of all, African Americans and Africans have diverged GREATLY, both socially and genetically. Obviously, an African American and an African will share more traits/genes than with a Caucasian, but there are still more differences than most people think. </p>

<p>Second, socially, Africans and African Americans are VERY different. If you know a large population of African immigrant children, you will know that their work ethic is similar to that of the typical Asian stereotype. African parents are often very controlling, and view sucess narrowly. It's always about being number 1. In Africa, the number 1 goal is to get to America and/or get money. There are three ways to do this:
1) Be very smart and go to American college
2) Cheat/lie/marry your way over
3) Do sports.
It just happens that typical African bone structure and lifestyle are most helpful in sports such as running and soccer. There are more skinny Africans than fat/muscular ones. I'm sure if Africans were naturally large, they would be really good football players. Most of these people walk/run EVERYWHERE- to get water, to get to town, to get to school. That culture simply doesn't exist in the United States.</p>

<p>There are also a lot of African American runners, which may stem from the lean body structure. You may argue that there are lots of obese African Americans, but really, most AA children are skinny as rails. Then they are overfed with ham hocks and pies to develop 'curves' and the like (stereotype/fact). The African running thing has no place in this discussion because Africans do not equal African Americans.</p>

<p>And your conclusion? No proof. None whatsoever. You may argue, this study says this! But for every study that says genes trump environment, another says the exact opposite. There has been no clear winner in nature vs. nurture, and until there is, your argument has no substance.</p>

<p>I'm sorry if this appears excessively rude, but then again, your post was simply unacceptable. It's not about political correctness. To hell with that. It's about being sensical and coherent.</p>

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<p>"no one ever said a 190 equaled a 215."- aparently, someone does, since the end prize for both scholarships is $2500- even though naf has a lower cutoff, and presumably lower na scholar score standards.</p>

<p>"Cheat/lie/marry your way over "
come on, princessbell. that only really happens in nigerian movies.</p>

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<p>W.E.B. Du Bois will answer all your questions. Read "The Souls of Black Folk."</p>