<p>Many get these two confused: most of the great minds that we admire were theists but not Christians.</p>
<p>and eventually Darwin ^^^</p>
<p>nice add on brand. all we need next is for some people to try to prove that Gandhi wasnt a christian. haha. i keep saying theist just because the topic of the thread is to explain why we believe in God or some type of force.</p>
<p>i have some questions...what happened to the people who lived before organized religion became widely known and practiced? did they all go to hell? is it their fault for not knowing about religion? what do other animals do about religion? are they just null and void when it comes to religion and afterlife?</p>
<p>wow. chamilitary, i love your thinking. I had the same exact questions when I was learning about the different religions. i believe that true faith can only come from questioning and finding your own answers. I dont want to say that one religion is right and the other is wrong, but I know more about christianity and Islam than i do about other religions, so I will explain their standpoints on these issues.</p>
<p>I used to think... well, if Jesus was on this earth only two thousand years ago, then i feel really bad for those people that came before him. when i learned about other faiths, i actually came to know more about christianity. If you look in the old testament, Adam was the first man created. Adam was Gods first prophet and his original purpose was to praise God and teach everyone about Him. The Bible goes on about Adam's history and his children and his grandchildren, etc. Eventually down the line, people became dissolusioned with religion and started to believe in pagan gods and statues. So, God revealed his message to a new prophet each time this occured, and sometimes, God even created warnings for the future, like the great flood (which is scientifically proven to have affected the whole arabian peninsula, early civilization's knowledge of the world). Each time, new prophet.</p>
<p>Islam is very similar to this, and it adds on. God created 124,000 prophets all around the earth in every single tribe so that no one could have the excuse that they were not taught God's true way. Modern Muslims believe that most of the big religions actually started out as Gods prophets, but their words became diluted over time (including Buddha). Islam and Judaism focus on Abraham's lineage because it was the most faithful to the actual Truth, according to Islam. Abrahams lineage then goes all the way down to Jesus. But, like the prophets before him, Jesus' Gospel had also been tainted, so God revealed the Truth to Mohammad, the last prophet. I hope I answered your first few questions. </p>
<p>About animals. I am very unsure on any religion's standpoint on animals, but I will try to answer to the best of my knowledge. Animals of course have nervous systems and of course have sizeable neocortexes, which control "logical" thougt. At least logical enough to know patterns in food sources, mating habits, and mothering habits. Humans, however, have much larger neocortexes, especially in the frontal lobe. Thus, we have the ability to percieve and KNOW that we are percieving. We are conscious to ourselves and have higher mental functions than animals. God created us because we have the logical ability to discern for ourselves wether or not God "exists." God enhanced our brains so that we have free will. Animals, on the other hand, are not as fortunate with their freedoms, but they are more fortunate in the sense that it is harder for them to do wrong in Gods eyes. So, animals are NOT disregarded. they are beings in their own right, and some Muslims actually say that animals pray in their own ways. I dont know the situation of the afterlife with animals, but God DID create them, so they must have purpose and fulfillment.</p>
<p>pic related</p>
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<p>Er... heh. I hate to pick at your words, but that's a contradiction, isn't it?</p>
<p> [quote=So Authentic] If you have been raised being taught not to steal
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<p>Again, you're taught not to steal. Okay, but who says it's wrong then? If you can accept that stealing is wrong without challenging it and wondering "Says who?" then why is accepting God so difficult? (This is probably a badly phrased question.)</p>
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<p>So your right vs. wrong is based in feelings? I fail to see how that is any more logical than religion. You mention "personal intuition." What happens when one person's intuition says it's okay to murder? There are actually people out there who don't feel remorse for bad deeds.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong -- I don't doubt that atheists or non-religious people can live good lives and be good people. I just wonder why it is more illogical to base one's definition of right vs. wrong in God's teachings rather than in flawed human feelings.</p>
<p>Hopefully that made sense to someone, haha.</p>
<p>no actually its not contradicting. Ethics disregards all bad because in your heart you know whats bad, therefore if you were ethical you wouldn't do</p>
<p>if you avoid whats wrong then you're definitely disregarding it</p>
<p>If you're taught not to steal then obviously the techer is telling you not to steal. Get what I mean?</p>
<p>yeah i understand there are many crazy people out there who do not feel guilt and are insensitive...some are in jail or have been executed and most are still out there...just like there are mentally ill people suffering from bipolar disorder there are people who have anger issues and cannot control themselves or understand feeling guilty...they are not of a "normal" mindstate...if a little kid steals a toy from his friend and sees his friend crying over the missing toy...most likely he will return it due to the feeling of guilt brought on by his friend's reaction</p>
<p>roxxy:</p>
<p>Not to call you out, but here's something that's confusing me:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Most Christians will agree that God has a plan for them. Oftentimes, as humans, we are short-sighted and cannot always truly know what is best for us. The overused metaphor is the parent-child relationship. The kid asks for something silly, and the parent does not give it to him/her. Even good people are not flawless.
[/quote]
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<p>I was under the idea that God gave us free will. If we have that free will, how is it that he has a set plan for us? Seems contradictory, but perhaps I'm too human to understand His divine logic.</p>
<p>Regarding ethics, I think we can safely say that ethics are very arbitrary. I maintain that one cannot be taught ethics; one must learn ethics by experience. Take for example children. Their grandparents, or any aged person really, will often tell them the dos and don'ts of life, the rights and wrongs, the good and the bad. But do they usually listen? No, they don't. How many times were we taught when we were younger, "Fighting is bad"? How many of us listened? So few did, if any. It wasn't until many grew that they came to understand that fighting really is a stupid thing to do. We can't be taught values; we have to experience them.</p>
<p>If we are told ethics, as in religion, we don't always take them to heart, and there come instances when we disregard them. For example, someone I know of the Pentecostal Church told me that although his religion tells him not to be lu****l, he still looks at pornography and afterward feels guilty; he then swears to himself he'll never do it again, and yet he still does. I would consider him devout, too.</p>
<p>Now, to answer your question, where do you base your ethics on? Despite being an atheist, I do indeed have ethics, and I came upon them through experience. If a child sees that his father lied about where he was last night, and the mother found out, and his parents then got a divorce, the child would conclude that lying is bad. But, then, if the child sees his father lie to his mother in pregnancy and tell her that she doesn't look fat, and the mother is happy, then the child can conclude that at times lying is okay. This same general process occurs with all forms of ethics -- stealing, giving, forgiving, etc. Hell, all the shows you see on TV base around ethics, and usually an episode has a lesson to be learned.</p>
<p>I personally hold that many religions go about ethics the wrong way -- "if you don't do this, or if you do this, then this will happen to you," often a threat; further, "if you do this, then you will be rewarded." Thus, it's a system of divine retribution and reward, something which lays the boundaries of society. In a society wherein this system functions without any sort of deviation, ethics exist, virtue rules, harmony pervades. But this is a utopia which humans will never achieve, simply because humans have natural flaws that cannot be overcome. No matter how optimistic you are, how determined you define yourself, these basic psychological obstacles will hinder any such perfection from existing. We can strive for it, yes -- and we can fail, too.</p>
<p>That's my view. Take from it what you will.</p>
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<p>Right, okay, but who's the teacher?</p>
<p>I can point to the Ten Commandments, but where would a non-religious person point?</p>
<p>Edit: So Kyledavid80 just answered that question, I suppose. Experience as the teacher?</p>
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<p>If I'm not mistaken, I believe we still have free will and the ability to choose even though God has a plan. You ask Him to reveal His plan to you or guide you on whatever path He has planned for you OR you can go about your own way. It's still ultimately an individual choice.</p>
<p>Yes, experience is the teacher. Unlike you, I can't point to a set of commandments which lay out my ethics. I don't usually remember specifically when I learned that x is bad, or y is good, any more than I can remember specifically when I learned the word "important" or "blue" or "ultimate." Why? Because it's a forming process, much like a sculpture: each experience changes the sculpture a little, perhaps even a lot, until it's fully formed*. And these small changes accumulate and form our (at least, my) basis of ethics.</p>
<ul>
<li>In theory, this sculpture can never be finished; it will always be changing, by mere virtue of the fact that the human mind is fallible.</li>
</ul>
<p>so if one did not know about the ten commandments they would steal, commit adultery, murder, dishonor their parents, etc.? you don't need religion to know those acts are morally wrong</p>
<p>
[quote]
If I'm not mistaken, I believe we still have free will and the ability to choose even though God has a plan. You ask Him to reveal His plan to you or guide you on whatever path He has planned for you OR you can go about your own way. It's still ultimately an individual choice.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But that's inherently contradictory. A set plan leaves no choice. You mean, he has a set plan for everyone, and he hopes we'll chose to take it? In that case, it doesn't seem as though he as an individual plan for each person, rather that he has a set system of rules, values, virtues, that he wants you to follow (as outlined in the Bible).</p>
<p>ChamilitaryMayne, I agree -- most heartily.</p>
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<p>I don't know -- it seems a lot of people today feel there is nothing wrong with adultery (which includes premarital sex). Wouldn't you say so?</p>
<p>yeah wake up and smell the coffee most of those committing such acts go to church, practice religion, and fear god</p>
<p>roxxy: yes, but not all people. If everyone who isn't Christian committed the things which the Bible condemns, this world would be much, much worse than it is. And God knows there are plenty of people who are Christian and who do commit those acts of evil.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You mean, he has a set plan for everyone, and he hopes we'll chose to take it? In that case, it doesn't seem as though he as an individual plan for each person, rather that he has a set system of rules, values, virtues, that he wants you to follow (as outlined in the Bible).
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<p>Hm, no, if we're going by the Biblical explanation, I think He does have an individual plan for each person.</p>
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Hm, no, if we're going by the Biblical explanation, I think He does have an individual plan for each person.
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<p>I still can't get my head around that one.</p>