<p>Of course, I never denied that. I'm a sinner myself!</p>
<p>I'm not trying to say Christians themselves are perfect -- I've never said that.</p>
<p>I was under the impression that we were discussing the religion and not the "followers" specifically.</p>
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I still can't get my head around that one.
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<p>Kyledavid80, I know this is going to be frustrating to hear, but you said it yourself -- "perhaps I'm too human to understand His divine logic."</p>
<p>It all comes down to faith. I can sit here and argue my point, but logic will only get us so far. I personally believe that we, as humans, cannot know everything and never will know everything. Human knowledge is finite; God's wisdom is infinite. I will not force you to agree, but that is how I see it.</p>
<p>(On an unrelated note, why isn't my post count going up? It's been 113 for my past 20-some posts. :P)</p>
<p>roxxy:</p>
<p>Yes, I agree, we can't know everything, but we can use logic with what we do know. Sadly, in my viewpoint, logic doesn't fit into what we know, and therein lies the flaw of religion. That someone I told you about of the Pentecostal Church one day told me: God is above logic. And that's precisely what much of Christianity is getting at. It's like in society: nobody is above the law. Logic is the law of the universe, and nobody is above it, not even beings that attempt to "transcend" it. Logic is infallible; however, the interpretative abilities of humans are not.</p>
<p>(I was wondering about the post count too -- I think that if you make many posts in a short amount of time, they're all considered one post.)</p>
<p>Your refusal to use reason and have faith without any proof is depressing. Go read dawkins or someone similar - even if you don't change your mind at least see the other side. "It all comes down to faith. I can sit here and argue my point, but logic will only get us so far" - You're right because faith proves nothing, it's a completely human creation. You seriously think that god has an individual path for each person? That he's already planned out every thought etc of 6 billion people, and then trillions of other animals? Please.</p>
<p>Logic is basically what causes of to perceive the world theway we do</p>
<p>Example #1:: Why does the Earth change into different seasons every three or so months. Logic explains that different parts of the Earth faces the sun</p>
<p>Example #2:: Why do people get even madder when things don't go their way? Because Logic tells us that when you pray to god and it doesn't get answered, you get even more infuriated because you made an effort to request and it wasn't granted</p>
<p>Kyle, Did I justify your argument?</p>
<p>Bottom Line:: The only thing Logic can do for us is understanding the basics. It can't forsee the future because needless to say, WE ARE NOT "CLAIRVOYANT". ACTUALLY no humans are. FAITH is only something that you hold on to. Its more of an optimistic outlook on things. That also can only take us so far</p>
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<p>Ouch.</p>
<p>Yes, I do believe God has a plan. Sorry if my viewpoints don't parallel yours. I also believe, though, that I have the right to believe this. I don't mean to play the pity card, but there are certain life experiences that open your eyes in ways unimaginable to those who haven't had those experiences. Perhaps seeing a younger sibling die causes you to dig deeper. There is nothing logical about the death of a baby. Many things in life cannot be explained by logic. But there is a reason for everything.</p>
<p>I wasn't born into a religion. Christianity found me. I apologize if it's not enough for you, but it's enough for me.</p>
<p>"Yes, I do believe God has a plan."</p>
<p>I respect you for saying that you "Believe" rather than he actually "Does" as if you met him</p>
<p>Thanks. I respect your viewpoint as well. :)</p>
<p>I have doubts, too, to be honest. But at least we can hold a civilized discussion and challenge each other, huh? What really bothers me is when people think religion (or a lack thereof) is irrelevant to life. Apathy is no excuse.</p>
<p>I have an unending supply of C. S. Lewis quotes. :P</p>
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I believe in God like I believe in the sun, not because I can see it, but because of it all things are seen.
- C. S. Lewis
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<p>^And that's it, So Authentic. It comes down to whether or not you believe. Faith is not perfect, nor is it easy. </p>
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You're right because faith proves nothing
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Well, duh. Faith is not proof.
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it's a completely human creation.
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And that is where our views differ.</p>
<p>I agree, roxxy.</p>
<p>Good morning. So Authentic, I think you said it beautifully in your above post about we can only understand the basics. Im sorry roxxy, but I believed your ideas are flawed. I like your religious fervor, but it is nearly impossible in all modes of thought. Granted, free will and predestination may be somehow correlated in a level which we cannot understand, but I think it is still very hard to believe, especially to use it to defend God. Anyway, what if we DO have free will in the sense that we can THINK. We think, therefore we are free. But, what if God had a "plan" as well. To our understanding of the universe, the closest thing to this "plan" would be the big bang to eventually create man. After that, we have free will while Gods "plan" still exists as the laws of the universe.</p>
<p>but sadly there is logic about the death of a baby or anyone for that matter...it is unfair but it happens</p>
<p>Heres what bothers me. The people that think religion applies to everything we do. And I seriously mean everything. not to call out any specific religion but if you see what Muslim extremist do, it will appall you.</p>
<p>The extent they go to follow they're religion and stick with it doesn't cease to amaze me</p>
<p>chamilitary, yah! baby deaths are the saddest deaths because sometimes you don't know what happened because they're babies so its hard to figure out whats wrong since they can't really talk that much</p>
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<p>Er... sorry, but could you expound on that?</p>
<p>So Authentic:
Completely agreed there. Neither extreme is healthy. "Everything in moderation," eh? (That is actually from the Bible. ;) Just saying.)</p>
<p>So Authentic, Im not exactly sure what you mean, but I agree that extremists are extremely wrong. If religion is about the creation of man and the laws man should follow and the meaning of life, then how is religion NOT about everything in life? maybe I just didnt understand your post, so excuse me if this is the case.</p>
<p>actually (In my opinion) religion is first, whether you believe in God, second, what God you believe, be that the creator, an four arm elephant, a golden cow, or satan. People take religion waaaaayyyy to far!</p>
<p>Are you really serious that one man can kill 6 million Jews because of what they decided to follow? Thats basically what I mean. Taking religion waaay too far.</p>
<p>I mean yeah, Hitler did kill 6 million Jews for other erason like not having blue eyes wtc. but the main thing was because of his opposing religion</p>
<p>You don't believe in the sun, so the quote doesn't quite work. The existence of the sun is a fact.
About your previous post: I'm sorry for your loss. What escapes me is why loss strengthens people’s faith. It's not that death in illogical, it's that it's unfair. Death itself is actually very logical.
Also, you're right you do have the right to believe in god. Religious freedom and tolerance are central to our country. Unfortunately the majority of America is prejudice against atheists and our former PRESIDENT said that he doesn't think atheists should be able to vote. Among christians you’re in the minority with respecting everyone’s views. Thanks.</p>
<p>oooooo, so authentic, i think i know what you mean. so you are saying ORGANIZED religion right? I mean, involving leaders and rules and everything else. ok. we can agree now. haha. Bush is an R-tard. I have a question though. Why do athiests refuse to believe in God? I simply do not undertand. There are too many ways that are unknown.</p>
<p>Extreme anything is wrong. Extreme Islam, extreme Christianity -- hell, even extreme atheism annoys me, and I'm an atheist.</p>
<p>roxxy, although I generally disagree with the Bible's methods, I do find that much of the Bible can be useful in advice -- from the parables to the declarations of morality, much of it has substance. In the same breath, I'll add that much of it is complete and utter nonsense; I refuse to accept many assertions in the Bible, sometimes entire books (Leviticus and Deuteronomy jointly win the Most Outrageously Stupid Book Award -- from yours truly).</p>
<p>Actually, I think the number of true atheists is very small. Many people who are not really 'religious' are probably agnostics or some form of deist. We want to believe in something, we accept the fact that this something MAY be outside of our understanding. What we don't understand is which particular explanation is correct since none of them provides better evidence that their particular view is correct. </p>
<p>While Richard Dawkins believes that even agnostics are mistaken, that's actually the one part of his argument that I must object to.</p>
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What escapes me is why loss strengthens people’s faith.
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<p>It is pretty incomprehensible until you come upon it yourself (not that I'd wish it upon anyone!).</p>
<p>There's a great metaphor in the book, The Case for Faith:
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"Imagine you're walking in the woods and come across a bear with his leg in a trap. You want to help him, but he thinks you're out to get him, so he fights you every time you get closer. Finally, you shoot him with a tranquilizer gun. Now he really thinks you're out to hurt him!</p>
<p>"Then, to get his leg out of the trap, you first have to push it deeper into the trap to release the tension on the spring. If the bear were still semiconscious, he would be even more convinced you were out to hurt him. But he would be wrong! He can see the situation only from his limited perspective, so he wonders, 'Why are you making me suffer?'"</p>
<p>"...how can you be sure it's not like that with us and God? I believe God does the same to us sometimes, and we can't understand why he does it any more than the bear could understand what you were doing. As the bear could have trusted you, so we can trust God."
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