<p>dstark, I agree with you. Speculation about V's parents is totally unjustified. We are getting second-hand information, at best. I can't believe anyone would even suggest, in a public forum, that these people might have lied on their financial aid apps. That is completely inappropriate. You know very little about this family. I think it is time to leave them alone.</p>
<p>Achat a ball-peen hammer is the hammer that has a flat surface for striking a nail on one side and a round ball on the other side which I see today used mostly to work soft metal. The most common forms of hammers would be the sledge and the claw, neither of which are very subtle, either-I just like the sound of "ball-peen".</p>
<p>Yup, yup, yup, yup, I just looked it up....:)</p>
<p>Oh Carolyn, couldn't you have warned us?<br>
Dstark, I too think (or maybe, for Valdez's sake, I hope) Northstarmom's imagination is running a bit (though she did say "may even think," not "undoubtably will"), yet there certainly are things that make one wonder whether or not financial gaming is in the works, not least of which is that the A&M application should have been withdrawn immediately upon receipt of the Princeton acceptance. Plus, the situation as it stands is that Valdez has written to Princeton not withdrawing but apprising them of the situation. Is there a hope for more money? I don't know, but why not just request to withdraw if wanting to be close to home and enamored with A&M? Like having your cake and eating it too: all the advantages of ED (a closer read, possibly a greater chance of admittance, a decision in Dec) and still getting to compare offers. Just doesn't sit well. When someone does something unethical, it raises red flags, and consequently his behavior (or maybe more appropriately here, his family's) might be questioned more than it otherwise might be.
Also, Princeton is known for its generous need-based aid, with no loans, and an extremely accurate aid calculator. If someone's financial NEED changed, THAT is something to take up with the financial aid office. You have to remember here, Princeton's aid is for financial need, not want. Wanting aid as good as it would be at any number of other schools for top students is not a reason to break an ED commitment. If you want the best financial deal, then go RD and compare. Valdez had no problem with Princeton's aid. Princeton's aid is not the issue.</p>
<p>Morally it would depend on whether the $5K put them into make or break territory. </p>
<p>If $20K was the utter maximum upper limit possible for the family, and the extra $5K was impossible, it might qualify as a legitimate out... I don't know enough about this. I only know that other posters on many threads indicate there is one. </p>
<p>So what IS the definition of a legitimate financial "out"?</p>
<p>"For those who think ED is a commitment, this is my question. Princeton has a calculator that estimates your costs. I fill it in. Princeton says my expected expenses are going to be $20,000 a year. It is a stretch for me, but I figure I can handle it. I apply ED. I am accepted. Princeton says it is going to cost me $25,000 a year. I tell Princeton I used its calculator and it said I would have to pay $20,000 a year. Princeton says sorry, the calculator is just an estimate. It is going to cost you $25,000 a year. I tell them I don't think I can afford it, I think I am going to Texas A+M. Is this really so morally wrong?"</p>
<p>If the family really could not afford the difference, no that wouldn't be wrong. However, in Valdez's situation, there's every indication that the family can afford to pay, but is choosing not to. </p>
<p>He has posted absolutely nothing that there are special circumstances indicating the family requires more aid. His family's main concern seems to be that they simply don't like to take out loans. After all, he claims that the only debt that his parents have is a mortgage on a "large" house. Apparently, they even were able to pay cash for his family to travel to Europe for a summer. Although he claims that once there, their costs were covered since they stayed with friends, I find it hard to believe that his family incurred no other costs.</p>
<p>I also see no evidence that Valdez is doing what he can do to make up the difference by, for instance, checking into whether he could get outside scholarships, which would help make up the difference. In fact, he posted somewhere downplaying the idea of scholarships because, I think, he said that at some point, his Princeton grant would be reduced. </p>
<p>This is what Princeton says about outside scholarships: "Except for federal and state entitlement grants, outside scholarships first reduce the term-time job and summer savings portion of a student's package." To me, this sounds like a good deal.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, here's the info from the Princeton Financial Aid estimator:
"The result you receive is not a commitment of an aid award. You will see that some of the figures are expressed in ranges.
While this Estimator reflects Princeton's own aid practices (which differ from other colleges' methods) actual awards for admitted students are reviewed individually. Professional judgments made on a case-by-case basis could result in variations from the standard calculations...."</p>
<p>I find it hard to believe that a family with a son as bright as Valdez would expect that the college's financial aid offer would be about the same as the estimator. I can imagine being shocked by a $10 k a year difference, but not by a difference of only $4k a year. </p>
<p>It also seems odd to me that people who are so leery of taking on debt would have felt comfortable allowing their son to make a binding ED application when they knew that the financial aid package could include loans.</p>
<p>"The old soldier sat in a crouch. The same crouch he'd been in since he had arrived in France. Since he had arrived in that trench. The enemy sat in that same crouch in a trench a hundred yards away. A hundred yards of razor wire and death. Their positions had never changed but the ordnance still flew and landed causing much commotion and clamor, much light and sound, but no progress was ever made toward victory or defeat.</p>
<p>So they all decided to go to Red Lobster for the All-You-Care-to-Eat Popcorn Shrimp Boat, just $9.99 at a participating Red Lobster near you."</p>
<p>I just thought this melodrama needed a commercial. Now back to our regular programming on "The Immorality of Early Decision College Admissions".</p>
<p>Who has the right to tell anybody what they can afford? That is a personal decision.
That Princeton calculator is on the web site for a reason, so people can make a reasonable judgment about the costs of going to the school. It's not on the site for fun.
Some people are not comfortable about taking out loans. That's their right.
Princeton says you will never have to take out loans. What the school means is "student loans". Parents may have to take out loans. I can see how families get confused about this and are surprised when "parent loans" are necessary.
beraruh, you and I are on the same page.</p>
<p>I have a ball-peen hammer (never knew what you called it) so not only have I learned something new </p>
<p>We also heard a word from our sponsor </p>
<p>(does that mean you and the home peeps now get free Red Lobster's or was it merely a shameless plug?)</p>
<p>The Red Lobster estimated aid calculator clearly shows $9.99.</p>
<p>Shameless plug? You mean there might be money in this for me? Hallelujah! Maybe D can apply ED afterall!</p>
<p>curmudgeon, is that a good deal?</p>
<p>Curmudgeon-
You mean the "4th Annual ED College Decision: to commit or not to commit" Program</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>I'm just trying to change the da&% topic and tone ,people. The horse has died.</p>
<p>Princeton's aid does not even include loans. There truly is no loan component to the aid, unlike with most schools. The aim is for all undergraduates to graduate debt-free. There is work-study as part of the pkg, and a student summer work contribution. I suppose a student could take out a low-interest student loan if choosing not to work to cover that portion? Or, as NSM said, get scholarships to cover that.</p>
<p>LOL. I give up. Suddenly, I'm sort of hungry.</p>
<p>I'm allergic to shrimp, can we get substitutions? A piece of flounder would be nice (maybe with some sauce on the side - I saw When Harry met Sally on TV last night)</p>
<p>I'm off to lunch, but no one in the office seems to know where a Red Lobster is. At this point nothing but popcorn shrimp will do. Enough already. The thinking is becoming absurd. But please folks, what will the world be if we don't do the very simple job of expecting our children to act with integrity? The end.</p>
<p>I'm not a parent, but I am one of those kids who has learned a lot from the great advice posted by parents like Northstarmom, jamimom, TheDad and many of the others. For me, Curmudgeon's apology was another indication of how thoughtful and well meaning the parents are on this forum. So as I read on I was really surprised to see the comments that followed.</p>
<p>I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I think in this case some parents have passed judgement and come to conclusions rather unfairly. I think its unbelievable that a kid would be labeled unethical or dishonest for questioning a decision which is going to affect him for the rest of his life. And to stretch it and include his family and question their morality without knowing their actual situation is really rotten.</p>
<p>Somewhere during the original discussion someone stated something to the effect that Valdez should just face his moral responsibility and go to Princeton. I remember thinking to myself that's like saying "you made your bed, now lie in it" ... For not being sure what college you want to go to?? For questioning the fact that you might have made a mistake by applying ED?? </p>
<p>There are many kids who post on these boards that know exactly what they want to do, where they want to go, and have been planning it all their lives. That's admirable and enviable. I'm impressed by the HS freshmen and soph's who post asking about their chances. But the truth is not all of us are in the same situation, some of us are still deciding and worrying. And we make mistakes, we're human. But that doesn't make us dishonest.</p>
<p>Thank you, FastLane. Well said.</p>
<p>See? It's human frailty. </p>
<p>Cur, with HIS :) superior wit, lost her footing and her temper for a moment. </p>
<p>V, nowhere close to fully formed at 17, lost his footing too--albeit on a bigger issue that involves money.</p>
<p>I'm with dstark on the grey color of morality and I tend to look on the brighter side. What other circumstances might have generated the ED misunderstanding? Lack of parental involvement, education, knowledge of private school education? Different financial circumstances? Bad GC advice?</p>
<p>I don't know him or his story. I'm not going to send him to hell for breaking an ED contract--especially since it seems like he is wrestling with the implications, slightly remorseful. </p>
<p>Just last week, a friend of mine announced she was leaving her husband of 27 years because she "looked across a room and locked eyes with another man and knew that he was her soulmate." They have a daughter who has been inthe hospital for several years battling anorexia. Now, THAT is a broken contract in my opinion. Used it for 27 years and then tossed it.</p>
<p>V's is more like a broken 'intention'. Like the plow that didn't actually get used. Not the best behavior and not commendable, but not a crime against humanity either.</p>
<p>Just curious, any of these 'V' posters running businesses?</p>