Admission has been a bittersweet experience

<p>"Even in adult life, successful "URMs" will always feel like their peers believe that they got where the are because of the color of their skin. They will feel compelled to spend their working life going above and beyond just to prove otherwise."</p>

<p>Not necessarily. People are generally more concerned with performance- if you're a damn good attorney and you win cases, you'll get clients. If you are a fantastic surgeon, people will line up. I wouldn't give it a second thought whether someone got somewhere because of AA, unless they're incompetent. THEN I wonder how they got there. But that's the case no matter what color their skin is.</p>

<p>The fact is, with some colleges, race gives you an advantage. I saw the "points page" for a "public Ivy" last year. Something like 20 points were given for being a URM. It was literally the equivalent of hundreds of points on test scores, or almost a letter grade of GPA. All other things being equal, a Hispanic applicant would score 20 points higher than a white. That's a huge advantage. It's also the cause of a lot of resentment. It really isn't realistic to expect otherwise. </p>

<p>My response to the OP (and I guess he's no longer with us) would be first of all, tell the young friend that tampering with other people's mailboxes is a felony. Second, if daughter did not "check the box" (and she most likely did check some box, although he doesn't know which one), then she should immediately tell her friends so they quit giving her a hard time. (If she can't remember whether she checked the box, she can go back and look at her application.) While it is true that it's really nobody's business, I for one would definitely want my "friends" to know if what they are accusing me of is untrue.</p>

<p>doubleplay: What I mean is if you take an already successful person of color - a person who is in top management or very respected in their field - many of them feel like they always have to prove themselves over and over to their peers and those working under them.</p>

<p>I certainly wouldn't advise the op's daughter to dignify the accusations of her friends by advising them as to whether or not she 'checked the box'. That's none of their dang business...just as it no one's business if a phone call was made from dear old dad's business partner or granddad who just happens to be an alum.</p>

<p>What I would tell the op's d to do is give it to her friends straight. The minority tip factor is highly exaggerated....especially for minorities from affluent families or who have college-educated parents. Colleges look past the box to the life experiences and they know when the minority tip game is being played. 'Points' may be awarded to an Hispanic kid with decent SATS, who is the first in their family to attend college and who faced signficant challenges and still managed to excel. But an Hispanic kid who attends school in the affluent 'burbs, is the child of college-educated parents and has already impressive SATs because the parents could afford and understood the importance of test prep just isn't gonna get bumped with points.</p>

<p>Last year, one of D's friends -- a good but not exceptional student -- applied only to elite schools such as HYP, Stanford etc. When someone pointed out neither her grades nor scores matched the schools' profiles, she merely shrugged and said she's a "Latina" and a shoe-in as URM.
By late May she wasn't telling where she got in. Because she was turned down by all her schools and had to petition to get in late at state U. </p>

<p>Bottom line: being an URM only gets you so far. You still have to, you know, PERFORM.</p>

<p>Wow, do I ever notice a difference in sharing of information relative to gender! My son didn't know where his friends applied, much less their gpa or test scores! The girls, otoh, knew everything about everybody! I can see my D will fall into the latter group! :D</p>

<p>Quote from OP: "The number of outstanding kids rejected from their top choices is just overwhelming."</p>

<p>Unless I skipped over some important info from the OP, there is no indication of how outstanding his own D may be, as well. My point being, doubleplay, that you do not know whether the OP's D had "hundreds of points lower" in test scores, do you? Maybe her scores were equal. (Gasp!) Or very close.
There was a post in the student forums recently about some Latino URMs with very high scores <em>not</em> getting into Georgetown & one other selective U. Katlia's post is an additional verifying anecdote.</p>

<p>I agree with weenie's last post and to a lesser extent with ldmom's. (URM's from 'burbs can still get a boost, <em>depending</em>, though, on the strength of the applicant pool -- both URM and non-URM.) Really depends on the U, their current & projected URM population & ethnic variation among that, + the strength of the applicant pool & the appeal of any particular URM applicant for the academic & other fit into the college in question.</p>

<p>The top URM kid in my son's class is almost certainly the top Hispanic student in this year's class in this region (which isn't chock-full of Hispanic students, and where Hispanic students have on average the lowest stats of any major ethnic group). Urban poor, too, and the first person in his family to graduate from high school. 2200 SATs (800 M), top 1% class rank, significant research involvement and science orientation. Rejected by Harvard (which took an Asian classmate with nearly identical grades and slightly higher SATs), accepted by MIT. I suspect his chances at both Harvard and MIT were higher than average because of his URM status, but "higher than average" is not the same thing as a guarantee. </p>

<p>I am a little shocked about Harvard, though. Its URM pool must be incredible to pass on this kid.</p>

<p>"My point being, doubleplay, that you do not know whether the OP's D had "hundreds of points lower" in test scores, do you? Maybe her scores were equal. (Gasp!) Or very close."</p>

<p>Please do not put words into my mouth. I didn't say anything about the OPs daughter at all. The third paragraph of my post referred to a points system that was used at one university. Our GC's were presenting a mock admissions for the parents and we saw/used the actual worksheets. </p>

<p>"I certainly wouldn't advise the op's daughter to dignify the accusations of her friends by advising them as to whether or not she 'checked the box'. That's none of their dang business...just as it no one's business if a phone call was made from dear old dad's business partner or granddad who just happens to be an alum."</p>

<p>Maybe it's because I have sons instead of daughters, but if people openly questioned my kid's about their college acceptances, I'd advise them to stick up for themselves. If people were spreading malicious rumors, I suppose it would be difficult to defend oneself. But in this case, they were actually insulting the young lady to her face. I wouldn't put up with it. I'd let them know they were full of it.</p>

<p>The colleges ask for parent's college information and some even grandparents'. A parent born in Cuba might have gone to college in Cuba, so the information is available automatically whether the student has checked 'hispanic' the box or not. Same for China, India and other countries--the student does not need to check the Asian box.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The colleges ask for parent's college information and some even grandparents'. A parent born in Cuba might have gone to college in Cuba, so the information is available automatically whether the student has checked 'hispanic' the box or not.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In post # 24 OP states:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I got an academic scholarship to Ohio State and did not apply anywhere else. What could be better than Ohio State? I went to Columbia for architecture graduate school, and was as well prepared as anyone.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>neither school is in Cuba</p>

<p>OP posts thread complaining that daughter got into all her colleges, that it was reported on her applications that her dad was from Cuba, not sure about the boxes. Daughters friends are insulting her and making her feel bad about about playing the race card, which OP is not sure about (doesn't know what box she picked) (my summary).</p>

<p>My advice was-
1. It is in fact an advantage at some universities to be a minority
2. Many people resent this, and it's not hard to understand this, especially if those people have been rejected by the same universities.
3. I would, if I were daughter, set the record straight with my "friend." No one would get away with undermining my achievements!</p>

<p>I'm going on record now that I have NEVER suggested that this young woman was unfit or undeserving! :)</p>

<br>


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<p>This has been our experience at the local public high school. The URM from a single parent, low income home will get the tip. The URM from an intact middle class family doesn't seem to be helped much, if at all, when it comes to college admissions. </p>

<p>I've only seen one kid who was so crass as to tell a fellow student that she only got into XYZ Ivy because she was a URM. He was so frustrated because he didn't get into ANY of the privates that he applied to. My opinion of him went way down after I witnessed that incident.</p>

<p>What is Billy Gates IV to do when he applies to college?</p>

<p>doubleplay, regardless of your back-tracking right now, your 3rd paragraph in the post I quoted implied a sweeping advantage regardless of other aspects to (any) applicant than ethnic or national background. The "resentment" of non-URM's is unfounded, i.m.o., rather than being "natural." I think it's misplaced precisely because, while one may know very well where other classmates got admitted even in a large & not-very-intimate school, it's much less apparent what the elements of the application were for any particular applicant. These can vary dramatically -- including letters of recommendation, which <em>should</em> be confidential. I've seen all sorts of URM postings on cc results boards which are very impressive, competitive, and often exceed those of rejected non-URM's. This can be especially true in the non-measurable areas such as initiative, enterprise, talent, & specific e.c.'s.</p>

<p>OP has not weighed in on his D's numbers, nor perhaps does he intend to. Supposing they're lower than the non-admits at that school. (And the point is?) It may be that the student was recognized in the teacher recs, and possibly in the personal essay, as someone with extraordinary drive versus other applicants, even though the OP does mention that there were so many outstanding students.</p>

<p>I've seen similar competitions between and among <em>non-URM</em> students, where the person with some singularly more visible quality such as creativity, insight, whatever, was granted admission with slightly lower stats than a classmate. </p>

<p>I agree with ellemenope.</p>

<p>doubleplay - </p>

<p>I understand the first impulse to stick up for oneself...I truly do. But in this case, it's a no win. Whether or not the op's d checked the box, those who would make rude comments to her are not going to believe anything other than 'she must of been accepted because of her ethnicity'. It's dysfunctional to seek the approval of or wage a battle with these sort of people. At some point, kids have to learn there are boundaries with respect to privacy and personal rights..... and it's more important to defend those boundaries than trying to make everyone 'like' or approve of them. </p>

<p>But, I admit... I still would be tempted to do as you suggested and put them in their place.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I've only seen one kid who was so crass as to tell a fellow student that she only got into XYZ Ivy because she was a URM.

[/quote]

Definitely crass, but also possibly true. I know that there are lots of examples of urm's who didn't get in or urm's who were exceptional, but the plain fact is that the opinion the kid expressed in a not so pc way happens all of the time. It seems to me that folks often try so soften the fact that it is a discriminatory process, ignoring the fact that when somebody gets a boost, it's because they are standing on somebody else's back.</p>

<p>Is this an AA thread? I can't tell. If so , mark me down as in favor. If not, please ignore this post. ;)</p>

<p>Yes cur, I believe it is. Rick12 talks about cuban ancestry and checking the hispanic box, admission to elite colleges, and hostile feelings of some jealous classmates. Umm, yes. Even though his daughter may very well be exceptional, AA has caused these interpersonal problems because the question will always exist in some minds. Just mho.</p>

<p>Actually, I have to add that I feel bad for both sides. I'm sorry for the non-urm students who have to wonder if they would have gotten a different result if their skin was a different color, and I feel sorry for the outstanding urm students who make it because their position will always be questioned by some. The whole thing is just really sad.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Is this an AA thread? I can't tell.

[/quote]
Come on, cur. How could AA not be the focus of a thread starting with the admission of a Cuban kid that has caused jealousy among her non URM friends? In a process that has colleges sending enthusiastic press releases tryong to outdo one another claiming the "most diverse class ever?" Hard to ignore it, regardless of you take on it.</p>

<p>Repeat after me, </p>

<p>"My name is Curmudgeon and I'm a CC addict"</p>

<p>oh, not that kind of AA?</p>

<p>Oh, and for the record, I believe if a kid can check the box, he should check the box. Give the colleges what they want, and what they want is to produce a nice colorful pie chart.</p>

<p>"It seems to me that folks often try so soften the fact that it is a discriminatory process, ignoring the fact that when somebody gets a boost, it's because they are standing on somebody else's back."</p>

<p>Yes, but that is also beyond and without AA. My gosh, folks, is no one following the admissions news on various forums? No one's watching the general blood bath over admissions to U's, and schools within schools, that generally have less of a URM applicant pool, to begin with? The operative key words here are Waitlist and Rejection. Lots of them. Lots of such notices from <em>safeties</em>. There are simply not enough URM applicants to some of these U's to fill up all the available spots, or even most of those spots.</p>

<p>Part of this is a result of the application deluge some of us have referred to. Part of it may also be a reluctance to accept what may be perceived as "overqualified" or "unlikely to enroll" candidates. This is an admissions picture out of control, even if there were not one single URM applying. Enough with the scapegoating.</p>

<p>My Ds exclusive private school is almost all non-URM, and with the top college competition occuring definitely only among non-URM's. Yet if you think that all the "qualified" candidates got in even last year or the year before, you couldn't be more wrong. </p>

<p>There is no such thing as objecive qualification. It is subjective, ultimately, even without AA.
As to what one poster's definition of "qualified" means, ask mini.</p>