Admission has been a bittersweet experience

Parents Forum
81

<p>ldmom,
re: But, I admit... I still would be tempted to do as you suggested and put them in their place.</p>

<p>Damn straight! :)</p>

<p>epiphany, I'm not backtracking. I stand by my advice. Facts are facts, it doesn't have anything to do with what her stats were or how I personally feel about AA. It exists at some schools and people resent it. It's precisely BECAUSE people make it into a red herring that she should put them in their place. I'd set the record straight if someone tried to tell me my kid didn't get into a college/get a scholarship on his own merit, and I'd tell him to do the same. (One of the schools my kid did get into was my alma mater. I'm the first person to say he had an advantage on that one!)</p>

<p>The reason this turned into an AA thread is because the original post did NOT do what I suggested, which is to say "my d is a wonderful student and got into college not because of the Box, and people are insulting her anyway." Instead, he opened up a statement that PUT the idea in the heads of everyone reading it, in the tone of, "she put down that I'm from Cuba and I'm not sure if she checked the URM Box for herself...but anyway....")</p>

82

<p>
[quote]
I am a little shocked about Harvard, though. Its URM pool must be incredible to pass on this kid.

[/quote]
I'm not shocked at all. Schools are building scholarly communities, not just taking kids with highest scores. College admissions is not a sports arena where the highest and fastest wins. It is an art gallery, where the most creative, the most communicative, genuine, and expressive, gets the most oohs and ahhhs.</p>

<p>My daughter had scores even higher than this kid's. She's also black, and had some seriously great EC's. Last year she was rejected at Harvard. If Harvard was trying to build the sort of community it is known for, then I think it was the right decision because the girl did not present herself to Harvard as she did to the other schools.</p>

<p>You know what she did? She gave Harvard a bunch of perfect scores, perfect words, all arranged perfectly on perfectly white paper, accompanied by perfect ECs, bunches of perfect grades, and absolutely no fire-- not even a flicker. The upshot of it is that she did not make her case, and so Harvard dumped her like it was nothing-- despite her big scores. After that, the girl decided to just cut it loose and paint herself with broad dramatic strokes, doing her thing with freedom. And she got in everywhere. But it wasn't that she just got in. She got in with such force that when the acceptances came rolling in, she received note-after-handwritten note saying her app was one of the best the officers had ever read. When you get different officers from different schools independently saying the same thing, you know you're onto something. No study can peg this because art cannot be quantified.</p>

<p>My son has a friend who is Chinese. The girl has good scores. When she started this apps process she whined to my boy about how she didn't think she had a chance because she was Chinese and all the kinda nonsense you read here on these forums. My boy told her what I am telling you, and encouraged her to just go for it, paint with big ol' huge and powerful strokes, and just be herself. He assured her that no one else, except maybe for himself, would paint an application like this, and that she just needed to be bold, not brash, but authoritative.</p>

<p>Well, that girl, an Asian, did this and today she is sitting at home with a lap full of acceptances from everywhere she applied- including Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, and a ton of other places - not even a single rejection.</p>

<p>What was it that separated her from all the gazillion others? And how was it that she got into every single one of these schools, though her scores were lower than even my URM son's?</p>

83

<p>Thinking that spot might have gone to you if only ..... is like thinking that choice parking spot you see that turns out to be marked--"police use only" would actually be there empty if that sign were not there. There were probably 10 other people rejected just as qualified in many ways.</p>

84

<p>^^^^ Yes...and because once again, people forget to just do the math. The chances of your getting that close-in parking space near Target (fill in fave store) is very slim to begin with, with no Reserved for Police designation. I only get such places myself, usually,when I go at offbeat times. (Translation: offbeat applications, offbeat e.c.'s, offbeat geography --all of which are probably more "deterministic" than URM status, which is a ridiculous red herring given all the variables in admissions today.) </p>

<p>I also think the OP is being punished for his honesty.</p>

85

<p>Part of the problem is the OP is a newbie. He stepped in it. No fault of his, I do the same thing, less frequently nowadays though. </p>

<p>Let's see...I go onto the UNC page and say, "Hey everybody, my son got in. He's a 4 generation legacy. Problem is, people are so jealous at his school. It seems there are people there who are just as qualified as him but didn't get in. Just because you get everything you want...geez...it's not all it's cracked up to be."</p>

<p>What do you think the reaction would be?</p>

<p>If it were me, I'd come back on with all my guns firing and give it to 'em straight about how wonderful, brilliant, beautiful, charming my daughter is.</p>

86

<p>
[quote]
If it were me, I'd come back on with all my guns firing and give it to 'em straight about how wonderful, brilliant, beautiful, charming my daughter is.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LOL, doubleplay.</p>

87

<p>doubleplay, that's a great analogy. Legacy, like URM is an advantage. Why pretend it isn't? </p>

<p>
[quote]
...that spot might have gone to you if only...

[/quote]
Epiphany, I think this way of thinking is totally rational & understanding. If we assume a good chunk of the 90% rejected are qualified, they all are no doubt wondering about the "if only." Everyone is looking to piece together some rhyme or reason in the admissions process. Of course anyone with an advantage you can't have, like legacy, geography, URM, is someone you will resent. Learning not to show it is an important life lesson. As is learning not to gloat, or worse, show pity if you are the winner. As is moving on & realizing it is what it is.</p>

88

<p>A matter of perception. Obviously I'm in the minority. I simply did not see his attitudes as those that could be classified as they were. Yes, he is a newbie. As such, he was trusting and thought he would find an open group of parents here. </p>

<p>He sounded genuinely incredulous to me, but not because he considered his D "less qualified," rather merely no more qualified than those who were rejected, & thus he was searching for answers. All of these back-pedaling explanations (suggested to the OP indirectly) are unnecessary to me, but are typical of the inherent prejudices in our society. Non-URM parents are not asked to justify, defend, or explain their students' acceptances, but URM parents (or students) are. No, he shouldn't have had to preempt his critics & engage in a barrage of belligerence about his D's worth, to prove that it wasn't about his or her URM status (because he should have supposedly anticipated that argument & been sensitive to the inevitable "resentments" of parents).</p>

<p>Again, I'll reiterate these newsflashes of this week:</p>

<p>NON-URM candidates, heavily NON-URM schools: No one without exceptional e.c. accomplishment & applications, essays with verve is getting accepted so far (from the schools I personally know of, which is hardly a scientific sample) to Ivies, for example. No one. That includes the 4.gazillion GPA's, trillion and a half AP's and 2300+ scores. I'm sure that cannot be universalized; I only make the point that URM's cannot be blamed for this similar pattern that was also reported today at my own daughter's school. When looking at white Anglo candidates with identical GPA's and scores, the selective U's are choosing to accept the candidates from these particular schools with impressive e.c.'s and essays, and reject the ones without those features.</p>

89

<p>In the Target parking lot example (which I liked!) the coveted close in parking spots are like the college acceptances. Just by good luck and timing (or w/e) you got a spot! But the 'handicapped' and 'pregnant or new mommy' spots are reserved for those special people only. Nothing else can get you those spots.</p>

90

<p>I'm true to my word if nothing else, and I do defend myself and my own. The comment about backpedalling and prejudice was IMO directed at me. I must have hit a nerve. </p>

<p>There are advantages in this world, news flash, hello... I'll admit my son may/probably got one when he checked yes yes yes yes I'm a legacy yes on one of his apps. That's exactly why he did it. Did he get into other schools without the help? Yes. Would he have got into that school WITHOUT help? I like to think so, but I'm not going to fault myself or anyone else for wondering.
Geez..Prejudice? c'mon.</p>

<p>EVERYONE...read the first post. The issue was brought up THERE.</p>

91

<p>Great analogy, lkf725!</p>

92

<p>So, Drosselmeier,
Where did your daughter end up going? How do you think her other apps were different? If people suggested to you or your daughter that she got into a school only because she was black, how did you handle it? Did you tell them her scores or ignore them?
I also did not get the impression the OP was bragging.</p>

93

<p>Post 89 is a faulty analogy. You do not get an automatic slide-in "space" in a college,by being a URM or any other "special" category -- disadvantaged, handicapped, or "other." You get in first by qualification, then you additionally get reviewed for special categories. No "qualification" in the parking lot. Merely dog-eat-dog & to the victors go the spoils -- mostly, I might add, to the very swift, capable, clever handicapped who figure out when those spaces also are most available (just as I do for the non-reserved spaces on my late-night visits, etc.)</p>

<p>The "nerve" you hit, doubleplay, is the nerve of double standards. I'm not URM, if that's what you're implying. Far from it. Sorry, you guessed wrong, very wrong.</p>

94

<p>epiphany,
Not implying. The way you kept coming back hitting it again and again though, seemed to me it hit a nerve. Not which one.
What...double standard....me?
How so?</p>

95

<p>Here's one more parking lot analogy. How about those able-bodied people who borrow a handicapped hang tag so they can use those reserved spots? Maybe those are the people who wonder if they can 'check the box' if they are 0.001% minority, or if they look a certain way, or if their white ancestor lived in Africa, or if American Indian means an Indian living in America, or if their name could be construed as being ethnic. You've all seen those posts. They are using a fake placard to park in those reserved spaces.</p>

<p>Okay, I'm done! :) I'm going to my parking space at the very end of the back forty. At least I have a car! ;)</p>

96

<p>Regarding the OP's opening post, Stanford has been especially generous to Texas students this cycle.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.PaloAltoOnline.com/news/show_story.php?id=4789%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.PaloAltoOnline.com/news/show_story.php?id=4789&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Difficult to believe that Stanford did not give OP's competitors a full review on their merits, apart from URM status.</p>

97

<p>Let's see now how wonderful it is to be a urm especially a Black male:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Black Male Health Statistics:</p>

<p>Black men live 7.1 years less than other racial groups
They have higher death rates than women for all leading causes of death
They experience disproportionately higher death rates in all the leading causes of death
40% of black men die prematurely from cardiovascular disease as compared to 21% of white men
They have a higher incidence and a higher rate of death from oral cancer
Black men are 5 times more likely to die of HIV/AIDS</p>

<p>Other Health Statistics</p>

<p>44% of black men are considered overweight
24% are obese
Black men suffer more preventable oral diseases that are treatable
A higher incidence of diabetes and prostate cancer
A high suicide rate. It is the 3rd leading cause of death in 15 to 24 year olds.

[/quote]

<a href="http://menshealth.about.com/od/blackhealth/a/Af_amer_stats.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://menshealth.about.com/od/blackhealth/a/Af_amer_stats.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
African Americans still carry the highest cancer burden among US racial and ethnic groups. Most cancers detectable by screening are diagnosed at a later stage and survival rates are lower within each stage of disease in African Americans than in whites. The extent to which these disparities reflect unequal access to health care versus other factors is an active area of research.

[/quote]

<a href="http://caonline.amcancersoc.org/cgi/content/abstract/52/6/326%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://caonline.amcancersoc.org/cgi/content/abstract/52/6/326&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Worst yet, the extreme absolute and relative difficulty of young African American teenagers to find jobs has reemerged. The jobless rate of African American teenagers, which reached a still too high historical low of 20.0% in April 2000, has averaged 30.7% during the Bush Administration, 28.8% during the recession, and 31.7% during the recovery. Today, the African American teenage unemployment rate sits at 28.2%, twice the white teenage unemployment rate.

[/quote]

<a href="http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2004/01/b19510.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2004/01/b19510.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Bunch of whiney white people.</p>

98

<p>
[quote]
...are typical of the inherent prejudices in our society. Non-URM parents are not asked to justify, defend, or explain their students' acceptances, but URM parents (or students) are.

[/quote]
I disagree! If AA did not exist, then no URM's success would be questioned. So it's not "inherent prejudices," but rather AA that puts URMs in the defensive position & makes non-URMs question whether they'd get in without the tip. If URMs don't want to constantly prove they are worthy without the tip, then they should aske that the tip be eliminated. You can;t have it both ways. And thousands of anecdotes about brilliant URMs being rejected do not change the fact that the tip is real. With only about, what, 25,000 ivy spots(?), it's no wonder that brilliant kids from all backgrounds are being turned down.</p>

99

<p>And you forgot this:

[quote]
The disproportionate representation of black Americans in the U.S. criminal justice system is well documented.
Blacks comprise 13 percent of the national population, but 30 percent of people arrested, 41 percent of people in jail, and 49 percent of those in prison.
Nine percent of all black adults are under some form of correctional supervision (in jail or prison, on probation or parole), compared to two percent of white adults.
One in three black men between the ages of 20 and 29 was either in jail or prison, or on parole or probation in 1995.
One in ten black men in their twenties and early thirties is in prison or jail. Thirteen percent of the black adult male population has lost the right to vote because of felony disenfranchisement laws.</p>

<p>In 1980 African American men enrolled in higher education outnumbered those incarcerated by a quarter million. In 2000, black men behind bars exceeded those on campus by 188,000.

[/quote]
</p>

100

<p>Bunch of whiney white people. </p>

<p>Giggle<snort> LOL. My, that's funny. Thanks tsdad. </snort></p>

<p>This thread is beginning to look like one of mine. It's tanking badly.</p>