Boys and Cs

Parents Forum
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<p>I was going to post a different version of this question in a couple of months, but it has reached a crisis point sooner.
My son is an 8th grader, and has steadily falling grades. A few Bs and barely skirting above a D in a couple of classes (we're talking low 70s). He's not doing drugs or hanging out with undesireables, etc, no major personality changes, he's just plain lazy! Doesn't like work in general (no athletics, reads a little, no hobbies), has never even liked "fun" things that require effort - like for example walking. He does like to play video games (the only thing he actually likes to do) and watches some TV - History Channel, Discovery Channel and Cops.
Now this will sound dichotomous, but he is active in Boy Scouts, youngest patrol leader, well on his way to making Eagle, but getting his requirements done, other than attending meetings and camping is like pulling teeth. Boy Scouts are not at all "cool", and while he enjoys it, the enjoyment must be "underground" and then there's that nasty requirement that occasionally Boy Scouts have to do work - particularly preparing the meetings as patrol leader, but he's good marshalling his troops (telling others what to do he gets from me), and has enjoyed helping other boys with their Eagle projects, which tend to be a lot of messy, dirty work. He's also active in choir (which he hates, forced) and band (mixed feelings, the whole band is almost ready to quit, for unrelated issues) both clarinet and drum.</p>

<p>For those of you who have hung on through my catharsis - his small college prep school is exactly that, college prep. There is certainly a "lower track", the vast majority of kids go to state universities with minimum GPAs of 2.0 and 3.0, minimum ACT of 20-21. But there is no vocational education at all, except for things like a few computer classes and photography (which is really art). Should we send him to public school, where voc ed would be a choice? He has no idea what he wants to do (video game designer would be nice) - he's wanted to go to Ga Tech since he was 8, until we said you had to do well in math and science and actually work - that was the end of that. </p>

<p>We keep thinking this is "normal boy", that he will grow up one day, and take responsibility for himself, and we've seen some improvement, although he wouldn't comb his hair on a bet. School doesn't come as easy for him as his sister, but he's not stupid. On the Stanford Achievement tests, he always had widely varying scores in elementary school - from 40th percentile to 90th on the same test, this has gradually improved, and narrowed through the years, to the point that he tests out in the low 80s, with maybe one subtest at the 50th percentile and one subtest at 90th percentile.</p>

<p>The school is small, and there is a lot of intentional and unintentional tracking, because of scheduling you mostly either take regular college prep or AP, its hard to take 3-4 APs, its 1 or 9, now I'm wondering if this is at all the place for him.
Socially he's been at this school since he was 4, fail or not, it would be very hard to send him to public school now, unless he really needs that a vocational option, homeschooling might be easier.</p>

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<p>Hubbell's Dad here;</p>

<p>I am living through nearly the same experience; while older son is excelling at Davidson, his 8th grade brother, attending the same rigorous prep school as his brother did, has grades all over the place, standardized testing scores all over the place varying widely on the same test in different years(math has ranged from 80-98th percentile, verbal similarly. A 3-sport athlete, he often comes home to tired to focus on schoolwork, and time management is a skill he has not mastered yet. I got my comeuppance though, when I said to him " if things don't improve in high school, you will not be going to Davidson", he stated: " not interested in Davidson, I want to go to West Point!". At that point, my wife said, "don't argue with him, we can retire 4 years earlier if he goes there..."; interesting child, ageing me much faster than the older boy did.</p>

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<p>A lot of boys fit the category of your son, Cangel, and unfortunately our society does not make much in allowances for this. My boys have all been difficult academically; even my best student is not working anywhere up to ability. I truly think that the average boy is 3-5 years behind where they would be optimal for the system. But we really can't hold them back that long or we would go insane. Many of us end up doing that indirectly (the holding back part is what I mean, but the insanity part probably holds as well). My nephew spent two years burning out any number of community colleges and a local college before going to a non selective school, growing up and finally working at his potential. I held my son back a year, which barely took the edge off of the problem, and he still is at highschool level at age 23 in many way mentally, but he managed to get his act together about halfway through college. Current son looking at colleges is alos behind in many ways. My brothers think he should probably spend a few years working and growing up. They may be right, but I really think that for his sake and mine, emotionally and mentally, we need to separate, and I really can't think of a better venue than college. There are some alternatives but they just are not as attractive. </p>

<p>I understand that colleges are experiences an overall dearth of qualified males, and that as a result there is a slight tip for boys over girls. BC, for instance, fits into this category. But even that slight tip does not make up the maturity gap. </p>

<p>I've gone many different routes from yanking them and homeschool one, to putting them in a highly structured school, a small school, a prep school. You are fortunate you got yours into a competitive private school while you could. Many parents I know are desperate to put their sons into a small, academically rigorous, monitored environment with high standards, and find that their kids don't have the records to get in. So it is not an alternative they have. In my opinion, for a bright kid not so interested in school, that is the best route-- a high quality education, surrounded by motivated, bright kids. Even if he does not do as well, a greater amount tends to seep into the brain for future use whereas in many of the public settings such kids are just moved down in academic difficulty levels, lowering the mark with each such move. It is difficult to make that up later. It is easy for these bottom feeders to perform at amazingly low levels and have no remorse at the time they are doing it. </p>

<p>My philosophy has been to keep thing structured and monitored and provide as much as I can academically, culturally, etc. And then hope for the best when they leave home. At least I have provided everything possible. Many times your words will echo in their brains after they are gone and when they screw things up on their own, they will at least be able to go through the paces to go back on track since you and the system have patterned them enough that they know what to do. You will have given them the options, but taking them is up to them.</p>

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<p>hubbell'sdad:</p>

<p>You might try telling your S that West Point is even more selective than HYP!</p>

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<p>I was thinking the same thing!
But I don't think the motivation works as well when it is external than internal.
My 14 yr old 9th grader gets frustrated and anxious easily. While she is bright, hard work is, well...hard!
She is beginning to work at the zoo with ponies, mucking out their barn, feeding etc which is also hard work, but I found with her sister the motivation of working with the animals was enough to keep her going and taught her stamina she used elsewhere. Keep exposing your kids to different interests, one will click enough to motivate them to learn the pleasures and rewards of hard work.</p>

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<p>Yeah, like Jamimom said, boys can be difficult. Seriously, I think it is in our genes. Look at Animal Planet, the lion is lounging under the acacia tree with that "Me worry?' attitude while the lioness is out scrounging for the next meal.</p>

<p>If your son is truely uninterested in academics, perhaps the public school and vo-tech is the way to go at this point in time. Hells bells, we need good plumbers, electricians, tool&die makers, and auto mechanics. There is certainly nothing wrong with being good in those occupations!</p>

<p>However you do need to have your son to make a decision. Prep school and being willing to take the academic work seriously or public school-votech where he will be able to learn a hands-on skill. And he must realize that there is a big disconnect with his academic attitude and his desire to attend West Point. That aint happenin' at this "Point".</p>

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<p>Hubbell's Dad:</p>

<pre><code> He is aware of the challenges of West Point, but if there is such a thing as legacy at West Point(wife and I both retired military officers, grandfather was on faculty of West Point for decades etc...), it will be easier for him to go there then most other selective schools.
</code></pre>

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<p>I never knew that WP considered legacy and I have to admit that I am quite surprised by that!</p>

<p>BTW, I did inadvertantly mix up you post with the OP post.</p>

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<p>I guess you are unfamiliar with the 'Long gray line", many families have sent sons to West point for decades. Being a retired officer myself(I was a military physician for 25 years), I can state that military academies have a special process for scions of military families. Not a well-known fact, but quite true.</p>

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<p>Building on Emerald's point. </p>

<p>Kids have different ways of becoming motivated and different ways of learning. Some really need real-life applications and others don't. My theoretical math-loving S would never ask, for example, "When would I ever need to use this kind of math?" but this is a very common question.
Good vocational schools can provide plenty of real-life applications for students to learn math and science. Last year, I heard of a young woman who graduated from a local vocational school and was accepted into MIT. Indeed, a very sizeable proportion of the graduates of that school do go on to 4-year colleges.</p>

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<p>I must admit I am not the one to give advice on this as I don't have boys and my girls are of the self motivated variety out of sheer luck. Jamimom is the expert here, hands down, lol. </p>

<p>I think you could chat about where he sees himself in five years. He says West Point. He says he wants to design video games. In either of those scenarios, what he does now to get there will matter. So, I would discuss these longer range goals and then what he will need to do to make them a reality because it is not something you can start doing in 11th grade. So, with video game design, you can talk about the need to do well in science and math and computer courses. You can talk of what extracurriculars he might do to explore that field more and to stay involved outside the classroom. For West Point, legacy or not, as with any college, legacy alone does not get you in, you still must have the qualifications and then legacy can be the tip factor when all else is equal between candidates. So, West Point is not going to happen with lots of Cs. If he wants to go there, ask what he is going to do to get there. Explain the odds and the real picture. See where such a discussion leads. </p>

<p>I ran into a local dad recently as my oldest was about to leave for college and she was with me. She had babysat for this family in the past. He wished her well in college and I forget how it came up but he mentioned how they had just taken their 14 year old son (about to enter ninth grade) to visit Boston College. I thought to myself, already visiting colleges?? But he explained why. He happens to be a smart kid. He is a star soccer goalie (as a freshman this year he is the starting varsity goalie). I gathered that they were not pleased with his 8th grade grades. I think they gave him some consequences but they also knew he had this wish to some day go to Boston College and they went there and showed it to him and explained if you want this, here's what you gotta do. They showed him the long range picture to get through to him because whatever he was doing in school that year, was not going to get him to Boston College. That is a good age to discuss short and long term goals. When discussing long term (and I mean five years ahead) ones, then the discussion has to turn to guidance of what you must do to reach THEIR goal. Afterall, it is THEIR goal so your only job is to give the realistic picture of what it takes. Since HE mentioned West Point, ya might wanna give him a clue of what that will take the next four years. </p>

<p>If that is not so attractive to him, the schoolwork and all, perhaps a school where he learns a technical area like computers might be a good plan. I would discuss this with him. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>A little confusion, I come from a long line of foot soldiers ;), although husband's Dad was artillery (ROTC), and hubby's brother-in-law is a WP grad, now reserve colonel.</p>

<p>The military is a real option, when the time comes. Also there is nothing wrong with electricians, plumbing, my Dad was a coal miner, and I'd actually like to drive a truck sometimes.</p>

<p>To clarify, his school does not have truly competitive admissions, but the students as a group are more motivated (even if it is mostly parental) and have higher expectations - DH teaches in the public schools, so we know what goes on there, we're not the only teacher family that has opted out.</p>

<p>Any more opinions about going public school, Jamimom's assessment of bottom feeders is about on target with our public schools - at his private school he would be required to take at least 2 years of foreign language, 4 years of English, 4 years of math at least ending in algebraIII/trig, 4 years of science including bio, chem and physics, 4 years of history/gov't. Public school in Alabama - 4 years English, 4 years history (which is specified - 1 world, 2 years US, 1 year gov/econ), 4 years math (only algebra and geo required), 4 years science (only bio and physical science required). The band program would be better in public school, although his opportunity for leadership would be less.</p>

<p>By the way I realize his biggest problem may be we are a family of INTPs (anyone familiar with the Myers-Briggs), he's not. He is a pleasant caring person who would make a fabulous pediatrician if he could get his act together, or minister, or social worker, or nurse. He probably would be a good teacher, he's got the genes.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the other advice as well, ya'll are still a little confused about who does and doesn't want to go to West Point, my son does not.
When DD visited colleges this summer, son went along, and I actually thought he listened and heard some things, he really liked the University of Richmond, for example (a lot like his private school). But whatever he heard then, it has withered away in the face of actually having to perform.
We've also had the this is what you gotta do speech, about a hundred times, he can repeat it, but he's never heard it, at least not enough to remember that he has to do homework everyday, or remember that he has a test tomorrow.</p>

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<p>cangel,
my son didn't really start working to his potential until last year - and it was the prospect of getting out of Ohio that really sparked it. Doing early visits to colleges, tech schools, other options - might bring the reality into better focus. The concept of what you do now affecting the rest of your life is a hard one to get across. The thing that come to mind is a flowchart - start here, wretched grades and you go down one path, decent grades another, good grades another still. Sometimes people react better to visual than verbal descriptions.</p>

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<p>Cangel, I am terribly sorry. I read the entire thread at one time and my post was to Hubble, not you. So, please disregard as I was not thinking of your post when I wrote it even though now I recall you were the OP! There were a few posts about Hubble's son and I left off on that and forgot it was you that was asking in the first place. I kinda joined in on the discussion of Hubble's son, sorry! </p>

<p>I know your son is not looking to do West Point.</p>

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<p>While we are talking military options, though none of mine took that route, I have friends and relatives whose kids did, and many of them did find success in the structure offered by the military. My closest friend who was always so anti military was shocked when her son joined ROTC, a natural thing really for him since he wants to be a pilot. Now she concedes that without the ROTC, he would have been high risk at dropping out of college. He had had no interest in anything academic, barely made into college, hardly made it out of highschool and gave her many, many gray hairs. The ROTC sparked his interest and gave him a group that he could stick with at a large university where she was really afraid he would flounder. Many of his peers did not make it past the first year. </p>

<p>The problem with these bright, low achievers is that the optimal environment for them is one that is high achieving but their performance precludes admissions to such an environment and often puts them in places where their chances of succeeding are low. I think small LACs and other places with structure are good choices for such kids.</p>

<p>I also have to say that I am coming to terms right now with my older son, that our family environment and my personality and interactions with him are just not good for him. Somehow we bring out the worst in him. He did much better in college, away from us, and every summer home was terrible culminating in his "graduate" summer when H finally had to kick him out after he pulled some really low deed that are so junior high in nature. He seems to be doing well on his own but when we all got together at Thanksgivings, well, "there he went again", and I don't know about seeing him for Christmas this year. We may need a little time apart. Hurts to say this.</p>

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<p>Cangel, could something be going on in your son's life that you don't know about? It doesn't have to be something serious at this age to cause a major meltdown.</p>

<p>My son was in 8th grade last year and I can tell you he went through a very similar phase. While his grades didn't drop, his general attitude about life (and his parents in particular) took a frightening nose dive. Several teachers commented to us that he had become somewhat argumentative in class - definitely something new. We felt like we wouldn't see him for weeks on end because he was so consumed with computer games. His angry outbursts were truly something to see.</p>

<p>After the year was over, I accidentally found out that he had had a huge crush on a girl during this time who ended up "going out" with his best friend. Looking back on it now, I think he was just in a funk over that plus the general hormones that seem to kick in in boys around age 13. </p>

<p>This year, at a new school, he has perked up, got involved with football, met a new girl over the summer (who he has since broken up with) and is less argumentative in general. He also seems to be communicating with us a bit more about what's going on in his life, but he still has a very real tendency not to tell us when he is hurting about something.</p>

<p>I'd suggest that you ask your son about what is REALLY bothering him, but if he's at all like my son, it would be easier to ask a tree about how it feels to lose its leaves. Instead, keep an eye on him, keep encouraging him, keep your ears to the ground for info. spilled by his friends (that is how I found out about my son's heartbreak), and, if you don't see improvement, consider getting him some counselling so he'll have a place to talk about what is going on in his life.</p>

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<p>Sooz, no need for long apologies AT ALL, no offense, I was just getting dizzy separating the responses.</p>

<p>Carolyn, I've wracked my brain about that possibility, and I will ask him, but I genuinely don't think so. This is a trajectory that has been building for awhile, a slow decline in grades for the last 4-5 years, from mostly As, to as of right now half Cs and half low Bs, as he's moved beyond the point where he could just wing it. There is some hormonal stuff going on, but other than fighting incessantly with his sister (who at her best is not a pleasant person to be around, and right now, waiting to hear from an ED college, is almost impossible), no anger or change in personality.
Outside of school, he is showing some improvement in taking responsibility and organization - it is just not working in school.</p>

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<p>And unfortunately as kids enter their teens all sorts of thing start happening to bother them. After one girlfriend issue is resolved some other thing can come up. And too often too fast for the mind to mature to handle these issues! Counseling could be an answer. We have gone down that route ourselves and though there have not been resolutions, having a therapist to talk to may have smoothed out some roads that could have been rockier.</p>

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<p>Cangel:</p>

<p>If he just wings it, it could be that he is not challenged enough or that the teaching method does not suit him. Some kids prefer doing projects, others like the lecture format. Any chance of exploring these issues with him?</p>