Boys and Cs

Parents Forum
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<p>Reminds me of both my boys. My youngest had a tough time in 8th grade with behavior. Grades were fine, A's and B's, but was suspended twice (in school) for talking back to teachers. 8th grade is important because it sets up course recommendations for high school. Because of his behavior and attitude, his teachers were reluctant to recommend him for honors courses. I insisted that he take honors where he could (met the objective prereq. even without the recommendation). </p>

<p>When he got to high school, he was challenged, his grades were good (GPA 3.5), and remarkably, his behavior improved. The only class he has problems with is his college prep french class where he is with all of his buddies, and the expectations are lower. Last term, he had the highest average in his honors history class, and will be expected to take AP next year.</p>

<p>I think it is too easy to lower expectations with boys. Most of them do not appear to be self motivated until they are older. Middle school is tough. I have a niece (same age) that has put so much pressure on herself that he is developing migranes and stomach problems. She needs to get A's and be at the top of her class. There has to be some comprimise somewhere.</p>

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<p>Sounds way too early to even consider a switch to a true votech program. Are you just suggesting that out of frustration? Especially this part, </p>

<p>"He is a pleasant caring person who would make a fabulous pediatrician if he could get his act together, or minister, or social worker, or nurse. He probably would be a good teacher, he's got the genes."</p>

<p>That does not suggest vocational training to me! Our son has struggled with academics... forever... he is in fact one of those bottom feeders. Looks like he will actually be going to college.</p>

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<p>Marite, I will certainly ask him about those things, but the bottom line is you must perform in the format the teacher demands. The teachers do mix projects with lectures and "classwork" and tests. He seems to have an equal chance of doing well or poorly on all those things.
In earlier grades, he did well on tests (except social studies in 3rd grade, but that was bizarre), just kept forgetting his homework, whoch brought down his grades. Now he does most of his homework at school, and it is actually graded, so it is like tests everyday - some he does poorly on. He can't do well on tests without reviewing the material, which he doesn't do, so his 100 point test grades range from 85 to 50 (which really hurt).
I know we should follow Jamimom's advice and micromanage him until maybe he grows up, but with our work schedules that's really hard, and besides he should have to do that himself. Again, Jamimom has a point, he doesn't have the foresight to understand he is blowing his options.</p>

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<p>My gut says it's too early to go the public school/vo-tech route. He's in a small school so I'm assuming there's interaction with teachers who can work more closely with him one-on-one. I totally understand your frustration (see "the sullen son" thread) about a kid who doesn't even try. My soph son does the exact same thing on tests. He reads the material once - night before a test - and doesn't take notes on either the reading or in class. Then he misses plenty of questions because he didn't get deep enough into the material. And he's not motivated to do more. </p>

<p>And there's no way your son has the perspective to see that his choices now are influencing his future considerations. My son has a friend who is struggling mightily in school (also a soph). Up until 8th grd. he struggled academically but wasn't totally out of it. His parents knew that the big public high school would overwhelm him and he wouldn't get the support and attention from teachers that he could get in a private school so they put him in a very small, relatively new college prep school. He continued to struggle academically and decided he wanted to try the public HS soph year. He went the first day and then transferred back to the small private school. He was overwhelmed by the sheer size and impersonal environment. Of course, he's doing even worse now academically because he doesn't want to do anything - homework, study, read material, etc. He'll be on academic probation next semester and if he doesn't do better (and the teachers are working furiously to help him) the school issue is moot - because he'll be asked to leave. </p>

<p>I don't know what it is about boys and motivation. Maybe it is evolutionary (loved the lion analogy) but if we knew the answer, we'd make a lot of money!!</p>

<p>Have you had him tested for ADD, learning disabilities, dyslexia, etc? Maybe some outside counseling to give all of you an objective take on the situation? Might be time to get some professional assessment - maybe couldn't hurt.</p>

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<p>cangel:
I agree that you have to play by the rules. But sometimes, the rules can be rewritten. In my S's case, having challenges has always brought out the best in him; and not being challenged has brought out the worst. Sometimes it is difficult for teachers to realize that a student is underachieving as opposed to struggling. But if they realize it, they are often willing to work with parents to challenge that student. That has happened several times with my S, so I am extrapolating from his experience here.
I was reacting to your comments that your son used to be an A student but now pulls Cs and sometimes Bs. There are different possible explanations for that. One is developmental--it's not uncommon behavior among boys that age; another is that he is underachieving because he is not being challenged (my suggestion); still another is the one offered by Fredo--the possibility that he has some learning issues.<br>
It is possible that he is masking a learning difficulty that was not apparent before beause he is bright but has become more of an impediment to learning. Someone once told me she did not realize that her daughter had hearing difficulties until she went to school because the girl had learned lip-reading.
It would be very useful for you to get a clearer sense of why your son's performance is so erratic. A meeting with teachers, and an outside assessment would perhaps clarify things and help you plan how best to help him. One of my S's friends, by the way, was a tearaway through elementary school, to the dismay of his parents. He is now a junior in high school and enrolled in APs. He seems to have really buckled down.</p>

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<p>We are trying to set up a meeting with the middle school guidance counselor,no response yet, and will discuss learning difficulties. We have turned off TV, video games, and DVDs yet again (although punishment does not seem to help), and set him a task of reading, to help keep him occupied. We may insist that he bring his homework home to be done so we can check it - but that will interrupt his routine of getting homework done, which works 85% of the time.</p>

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<p>Cangel- I feel for you. We have also gone through it all with our 10th grade son. I would say 8th grade was the worst. We did do the testing in 9th grade and he started on some add meds and his grades has really gone up and he seems to care more about them. He still isn't the hardest worker but it is better.
He went to a private middle school and many of the parents had issues with the 8th grade math teacher. When we talked with the headmaster his take was its not the teacher it's the kids. That in the 20 years he had been there the teacher he got the most complaints about was the math teacher. And they weren't always the same teacher. </p>

<p>About a year ago I met an older woman who did not know my son. She told me the story of her son. He screwed up big time in high school so much to the point that they thought he would not graduate at all. He loaded up at the end with vocational courses including auto shop and culinary arts. He graduated by the skin of his teeth and then lived at home and went to the local Jr College. He continued on the same path till he took a science class with a teacher who turned something on inside her son. He transfered to a UC a few years later and then went on to Med School at UCLA and is now completing a surgical residency back east. He still works on cars and loves to cook but now they are hobbies. They are still in shock. So there is still hope.</p>

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<p>Whenever I hear "lazy" kids i always think of LD in some fashion. He does well with video games, which are 'sight' learning. He also enjoys learning thru watching TV. He doesn't do well in quizzes without sufficient time to study. Is reading a problem? Also, he is involved in ECs he doesn't particularly like, eg Scouts, choir. I suspect a good evaluation will clarify the best teaching style for him. Then, a reevaluation of how he spends his time, searching for activities that are fun for him, not additional "work". (This could be a Microsoft course, or class in programming.)</p>

<p>I have mixed feelings about private schools. Where I live now, most tend to teach to a certain kind of student, in a traditional lecture format. An exception are schools which focus on students with LD of various sorts. Each child is given a laptop, and teaching often focuses on visual aids. Time for homework is included in the schedule, with teachers on hand to offer assistance.</p>

<p>Perhaps when your son's issues are identified, his school will be able to find a way to "reach" him.</p>

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<p>I think you'll have to motivate him. Boys take longer to develop fully. I didn't figure things out until 10th grade. Help him along and improve his study habits.</p>

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<p>Don't give up on him. You just have to do for him what he can't yet do for himself. It took my own son until his senior year--now--to really bloom and mature. He fooled around and got high test scores but a mix of A's and B's--even a C his junior year (<em>gag</em>) until his brain finally caught up to what he needed to be doing. Now he's trying to play catch-up. Unfortunately, it's too late for pefection, of course, but he's done enough to have areal chance at the places he wants to go, and he was just voted Most Likely To Succeed by his class for a reason. </p>

<p>All I'm saying is that we HAVE to find the time to do for them what they cannot do for themselves no matter how many times we end up saying the same things, no matter how frustrating it is. It's our job. Their brains just aren't developed enough in all the right places yet. We can't expect more than they can do. And yes, boys are different. (That would have killed me to say thirty years ago.)</p>

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<p>a lot of maturing takes place btwn 8th grade and the end of the high school years. Even a year or two can make a big difference. If you do decide to research homeschooling, I would like to recommend "The Teenage Liberation Handbook" by Grace Llewellyn for an overview of alternatives to traditional school for this age group.</p>

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<p>cangel, you could be talking about my son, except for that he tests well. How aggravating it has been to see these high standardized scores and yet grades ranging from A- to D! Forgotten assignments, lying to cover up, yelling parents, overacheiving older sister. Guess what? He has ADD...but doesn't present as a huge discipline problem. (Hard to tell with middle school boys.) Not diagnosed till 7th grade. Bright kids have tremendous coping mechanisms, until suddenly the work and organization gets too hard. Medication, the hardest thing to face, has really helped him. Even then, that was not enough when he entered high school this year, with all the new things, hormones, social pressures, etc. I took him to a therapist who specializes in kids with learning issues. Turns out he is well aware of what we expect of him but sees no reason--and doesn't care to-- apply the extra effort to get great grades(!) I thought Dad would throw a rod right then and there! (To go with Mom's apoplectic fit!) However, he really liked talking with her, and I have seen an improvement in attitude. I plan to have him continue to talk with her, about not just school, but goals, dreams, and practical ways to achieve them...we love them so much, but sometimes they can need someone else to talk to. </p>

<p>A big part for us is that his friends/peer group are very much blase jock types. He learned long ago to shutup after being nicknamed "the prof".</p>

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<p>ezduzzit - you have described my son to a T! Has ADD - Inattentive (no hyperactivity) Diagnosed in 8th grade. He is now a senior, NMSF, SATS I & II's are very good - but GPA is low B...he imploded last year and failed two classes...also got a D in AP US History...did no homework all year...but gota 4 on the AP US History test...his attitude is improving...I think just getting older has something to do with it...but, like yours, does not see the point in doing homework when he knows the material..."a waste of my time" he says...nothing we have done or said has made much difference, although without medication, counseling, and help from teachers, he may have done even worse. The plus is he is just a really nice kid...kind and decent - no discipline problems anywhere...just marches to his own drummer and will have to find his own (sometimes painful) way!</p>

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<p>Cangel; </p>

<p>I feel your pain. Many boys seem to lag a few years in academic maturity--even when their talent exceeds grade level.</p>

<p>Marite's list of check points was excellent. Especially, I hope your S will be tested for a processing issue. </p>

<p>From my perspective, (two boys), the retreat to computer games is very frustrating. My boys say I blame everything on the computer. Mostly, I hate those bloody games.</p>

<p>However, I have noticed that my boys use the computer to navigate difficult social situations, ie drugs, alcohol and sex. They were too "busy" with the computer games to go to such and such. Playing the games at certain times allowed them to avoid certain risks but stay 'cool'. </p>

<p>The reality is, you may never know if something happened to cause your S's withdrawl--or you may find out a few years down the track. HEAPS of crazy stuff happens to thirteen year olds. Some boys feel that adults must never, never know. </p>

<p>Finally, my last piece of advice is Blossom's wonderful "love the kid you have." Find a way to tap into his strengths. Think out of the box. What are his favorite subjects? What about hiring a tutor to supplement his learning in those subjects? Both of my boys had big math talent, but no interest. </p>

<p>One is taking Pre-Calc as a sophomore and got to the final exams without doing one minute of homework during the year. He did it all at school. He did well in the mid-term exams but I knew the final result would be average if I didn't find a way to teach him HOW to prepare for the three hour final. </p>

<p>I hired the experienced but quirky Math-Geek tutor we used for older S's Calculus exam and voila! S2 finally moved at a pace he enjoyed--unlike boring high school. He bought himself an exam workbook and moved right through it. With that success, I set my eyes on Physics.</p>

<p>I mentioned the hourly tutor rate to a friend with a Phd who recently started teaching Physics at the Polytech--and she agreed to tutor him. Again, voila! He learned the whole year's curriculum in seven 90 minute lessons and by the end of it, I realized he has a natural physics talent. The kid was on fire and he said the exam was fairly easy. There were only two higher level questions he couldn't answer. </p>

<p>That was so successful, we've decided to continue next year with the tutoring to complete the next two levels of Physics. His tutor thinks he can complete it in six months, taking labs at the Polytech--as opposed to spending two years bored to tears in a so-so physics classroom. </p>

<p>Even though friends grill me about paying for tutors when he attends the finest private school--half the reason he isn't learning in that class is his fault. At least half. Me, I'm thrilled to think he may get a great physics education. </p>

<p>The 'how' of it doesn't bother me because that's my way of loving the kid I have! :)</p>

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<p>I am going through some tough times with my 9th grade son. He is actually quite brilliant, but he does not like to study. He wants to play computer and video games. He seems to think a B he didn't study for is better than an A that requires work. It's difficult because his sister is a classic overachiever who earned a fulll-tuition merit scholarship to the University of Chicago. I think her extraordinary drive has skewed my perception of what of what to expect. </p>

<p>I realize that in many ways my son is the more "normal" of my two children, but I hate to see him fail to realize his potential out of pure laziness. I wonder sometimes which is better: Four years of family disharmony because we have to push him constantly to keep up with his studies, or just accepting the fact that he isn't driven to be a top scholar. </p>

<p>I love him beyond belief, but he frustrates me because he has such promise. He is in the gifted program and scored fairly high on his 7th grade SAT (1190). His sister attended Duke's TIP program after her freshman and sophomore years of high school and was motivated by the other students there. We will probably send him this summer in hopes that he also will be inspired. Also, I sometimes think he deliberately slacks off because -- horrors! -- he doesn't want to come off as a "nerd."</p>

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<p>cangel, First since you're the one who knows your son better than anyone (doctor, teacher, psychiatrist etc) ever will, ask yourself, Is he exceptionally bright? Does he have the intellectual ability to excel academically? Does he have unique perceptions, quirky viewpoints? Now don't be modest! If the answer is yes, then you need to find out what's going on that's keeping him from succeeding in school. It could be psychological, physical, developmental, social -- for sure there's something. Once you know what it is you'll know what to do.</p>

<p>From pre-school onward my son excelled in certain areas and goofed off in others. We had a lot of intense conferences with highly frustrated teachers, a lot of after school shouting matches over homework and projects. We definitely micro-managed. (One simple thing that in retrospect really helped his concentration was to feed him dinner immediately upon coming home from school.) His first year at college was a tough adjustment for him as his study skills were miserable; in the second year something clicked and he truly is one of those ducks you describe.</p>

<p>Basically, kids love to succeed, love to get awards, love to be praised. Fear of failure, fear of never being good enough, fear of trying keeps a lot of gifted children from exerting themselves. It becomes a downward spiral of defeat. Try to find one academic subject that is of interest -- or at least less boring than the others. If he can get a success story going in one area, he can build on it. Some subjects you just have to let go. For my son it was foreign language which he hated. In spite of having a near perfect memory, the vocabulary lists went in and out with absolutely no retention. Or in math, where he understood all the concepts but couldn't bother to add correctly.</p>

<p>Scouting is a wonderful outlet for leadership, character building, self-esteem. How lucky you are that he's shown an interest. My son went all the way through to Eagle. It became a kind of reverse prestige thing for him to do, i.e., it was so un-cool, it became cool. Hopefully Scouting will get him outside and involved in active pursuits like hiking, camping, biking. A summer Scout trip might also be a maturing, focusing experience.</p>

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<p>Just a quick comment:</p>

<p>I would distinguish between study habits and study skills. A student may have good study habits insofar as he does not slack off, does all the homework, etc..., but poor study skills. A student who came in for help one day had to read a passage from a biology text. He could not extract the main point from the text though apparently he had read it more than once.
One of my nephews similarly had poor study skills. He'd read the same passage over and over again to the point where he'd memorize it without really understanding what it was about, so when a question from it appeared on the test, he was still unable to answer it correctly (he had learning difficulties). It was all the more frustrating for him as his two sisters managed to do their homework in half the time and got good grades.</p>

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<p>Thank you all so much. His counselor is out for a couple of days so we will continue to try to get in touch with her.
I'm an MD and Dad's a physics and chemistry teacher so you guys can imagine what the expectations around here would be. More than that, this kid doesn't think the way the two of us and his sister think. DH said last night he was trying to remember what he was like at 13, and said he remembered being immature, but never having such a problem in school - of course he was the oldest child.
As far as testing, we will discuss that with the counselor (eyesight too), but frankly we parents will have issues with medication (we see it overdone in our community), but I think we're ready to give anything a fair trial.
He is NOT the brilliant underachiever, he's a very average kid. The grade performance we're looking for at his school would be a solid B average - he could do As and Bs, but I 'm not pushing it. More importantly, we're looking for consistency (or at least movements in that direction, he is a 13 year old boy) and effort, and organizational skills and some minor goal setting.</p>

<p>The tutor idea has got me thinking, that's a great idea.</p>

<p>The original question I was going to ask next spring - he visited colleges with his sister, said he's never go that far away to school (so assume, South ,less competitive), and he really liked the LACs we saw (Univ of Richmond, for example).
We may well be in a situation with him where state U is his only choice, but for purposes of picking classes next spring - what degree of "rigor" would a school like Trinity University in San antonio expect for an average student (no merit scholarship)? On an earlier post I listed what he would have to take at his private school, but to repeat - 2 yrs foreign lang, 4 years science, with C,B and P, 4 years math (no calculus), 4 English, 4 history, is the minimum to graduate.</p>

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<p>SO MANY wise words!
Your son is only an eighth grader! As I have raised 3 boys my thoughts are the age from 13-16 is a delicate period. I would not pine for what he is not but would strive to improve his self-image every day. Make that your personal challenge.Work hard to produce a well adjust kid! Talk to him all the time but do not be critical, be interested in little victories. Work on developing a good relationship. GDo not bother him over the small things, save your battles for the problems that really matter to you. A positive self image is worth 10 high SAT scores!</p>

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<p>Cangel, you said your son is a sensitive kid who would make a good teacher/minister. Does he show any inclination at all to teach right now? Then you could encourage him a little in that direction. Sometimes a troubled kid will benefit from mentoring someone more troubled than he? I know this is counter-intuitive but I've seen that used with a kid I know mentoring someone a lot younger.</p>

<p>My son was goofing off a little; he was an angelic little kid when he was young and then bam, he turned 13 and hated Math and discipline. In general, he is a smart kid. In 8th grade he was asked to mentor younger kids in lower grades by his teacher who understood him and had a talk with me. That seemed to help him a bit. He used to go to elementary school in a part of town where there were many ESL kids. He taught (or volunteered) in the ESL class. He gained a lot of maturity in the process.</p>