<p>New College is a great place for students who are organized and do their work. It's a bad place for students who lack self discipline. Those students tend to drop out.</p>
<p>For New College to be a good match, a student has to be self motivated to learn in a college environment. A student who is self motivated to learn only on their own wouldn't be a good match because they still wouldn't be likely to do the work required to graduate.</p>
<p>"" currently, he is thinking that he would rather not attend college next year at all.""</p>
<p>Again suggestion that doing a gap year or two with a program like Americorps could be a good solution for his post h.s. plans.</p>
<p>From what you've posted, he doesn't seem to be a good candidate for college right now. While he's clearly bright, he doesn't seem motivated yet to do the academic work that's required to be successful in college.</p>
<p>Many of those "alternative" type schools require even more discipline and work than traditional ones. They are often best for kids who are unusual in way of thought, not lazy or unmotivated. Such schools really need a close look for fit. </p>
<p>My close friend went to Hampshire College, after a dismal experience with a traditional university. She did very well there, but the work and requirements were every bit as difficult and required more self discipline and extensive work. The drop out rate there is much, much higher than that of the traditional school that she left. Not a nirvana for slackers at all.</p>
<p>From what the OP said of the student in question, he might do quite well at a more alternative school.</p>
<p>He's willing to work, but only wants to pursue what interests him -- and he's more likely to get such an opportunity in a less traditional school setting.</p>
<p>He does not want to go to college next year. I think he needs to come up with Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C for next year, and a plan for college the following year. Applying to college now and deferring admission for a year sounds like a good idea. I think he knows himself and knows he shouldn't be sitting in college classrooms next fall.</p>
<p>I also had the thought that he would be highly entertained by applying to The University of Chicago and that it would be a good fit for him. (The Tufts options for essays are fun, too, and Tufts has the smorgasbord of classes you describe.) Rochester is a school to consider - I bring Rochester because it is, I have heard, easier than at most schools to change your mind about engineering there - since he wants engineering to be a possibility but is not sure about it. Maybe he would put a good effort into deciding on some schools that appeal to him and writing his apps if you and he had an agreement about what he will do during the 09-10 school year.</p>
<p>I am not at all opposed to his taking a gap year--- I am opposed to his not having a plan for the year. He isn't currently articulating much of a real plan. He is waffling about what to do.
On the other hand, this month is very busy for him with SATs in a couple of weeks, essays for the Jeffersonian Scholar, a Historical research paper for his IB program, etc. So, I haven't been sure how much nagging is appropriate.</p>
<p>He is an odd combination of driven and lazy-- when taken with something, he can perform at an extraordinary level. He is also very good at finite "one shot" assignments--the big paper, the standardized test. Where he has real difficulty staying on task is with the repetitive small tasks-- daily homework, for example or daily journal writing for english. He is also very physically disorganized-- papers disappear, books are lost and dues dates forgotten.</p>
<p>I haven't read all the posts, but DeirdreTours, your son sounds remarkably like my daughter. But, instead of allowing her to just be herself, we strongly encouraged her to play by the rules and get all those A's in all those AP classes, many of which were in subjects she had no interest. We persuaded her to forego what interested her in order to take "what colleges like to see", according to her HS counselor. In essence, we told her to jump through the hoops, and THEN she could explore all those wondrous and unusual interests. BIG MISTAKE. Instead, she came off looking like a typical and ordinary overachiever who her dream school (University of Chicago) ultimately rejected. If we had simply let her be herself that would have shown through, and she would have had that brass ring she so coveted and almost killed herself to get. I wonder if I will ever forgive myself for misleading and failing her, albeit with only the greatest intentions. </p>
<p>Her story does have a happy ending, and I know your son's will, too. I think UChicago would love someone like your son, especially if you are not from the Chicago area.</p>
<p>Je_ne, I don't think you made a big mistake. Our kids are like Deirdre's and it has been an ongoing problem. Whatever we may have lost in whimsy would have been gained in discipline, organization, and other things that are ever so important for life in general not just school. My boys still struggle over these things, now that they are no longer precocious kids. I think the uniqueness will remain. The others are necessary skills that have to be learned.</p>
<p>Deidre -- Just read je-ne's post and she beat me to it. I also have one of those kids with incredible drive to learn, but no drive to turn in HW. Spends all of his free time coming up with new projects, writing proofs, reading interesting things. Disorganized, does HW and never turns it in, etc. Had fabulous test scores, many AP and post-AP courses, and Bs in any class where he wasn't challenged. S also collected some very nice awards for all the time he spent with his head in the clouds.</p>
<p>He is now a first year at UChicago. Says he feels more focused and organized than he EVER did in HS. Loves his classes, talks to his profs often, has made many friends, found a job related to his major (with a fabulous mentor) his first day on campus. College seems to be mercifully free of stupid, picky rules re: HW, etc. S says he can organize and do his work however he wants. </p>
<p>There are schools out there that will embrace your son -- and that he will want to embrace as well. </p>
<p>A couple of suggestions when your S goes to apply to colleges:<br>
1) Have him develop a resume of what he has done during HS. Include things outside of school. Account for how he spends his summers -- including these projects, books, etc. S found that the resume process showed him how he could link various activities and interests into a coherent whole that he then developed in his essays.
2) Make those essays sing. A budding scientist/engineer who can win writing awards is a great combination. He needs to talk about his intellectual passions -- vividly, in detail, and in a way that shows that his intellectual life is alive and well; it's just not happening in the classroom.
3) First generation college is a plus.<br>
4) Be sure he documents how many exams he did self-study, etc. Attach an activity resume (complete the ones the colleges ask for on thier apps, but send one that gives more detail as a supplement).<br>
5) Do not rule out places like MIT if he has made NMSF and has a great SAT score. Chicago also likes kids who love developing their minds -- a CC poster said two years ago to me that they liked "imperfect resumes." S took this to mean that they would appreciate applicants who didn't have perfect everything, but who clearly demonstrated they had taken on challenges and weren't afraid of hard work.</p>
<p>Feel free to PM me.</p>
<p>deidre... >>> [Son] attends a mediocre public school in a poor state. <<<<</p>
<p>That may well be it. Few get powerful messages about academic achievement from a mediocre school. </p>
<p>Also.... for some reason, in this country, males are often actually discouraged from caring about their grades. Even in some of the better publics, boys can be made to feel "nerdish" or weird if they care about grades, religiously do their homework, or worse, study! Their male (and female) peers give them "props" for athletic prowess - but RARELY for academic achievement. In fact, young males are often "teased" by their peers for caring about their grades.</p>
<p>So... what may happen to your son (if he's lucky) is this... If he gets into a college where either the entire school is smart or he gets into an honors program where his classmates will all be smart, then he'll become more motivated to care about his grades - because it will be the "cool" thing to do. </p>
<p>It was because of our nation's obsession with male athletic ability and almost negatvie attitude about high school boys excelling in academics, that we didn't sent our boys to public schools. Even at their school - a college-prep school - my boys would still "cringe" if a teacher announced that they scored the highest on a test or essay. My kids would much rather have one of their athletic achievements announced, then have an academic achievement broadcasted. When my son was named Val, he still felt a bit embarrassed; I doubt a girl would have felt the same.</p>
<p>To further my point about how young American males feel about academic achievement, consider this: How many fathers will brag about their son's touchdown, home run, or 3-point basketball shot, but would only rarely mention their son's academic achievements? </p>
<p>Unfortunately, the answer is too many dad's unintentionally send the message to their sons that they (the dads) are more impressed by touchdowns, RBIs, etc, then 98's on tests. How many dads help their sons practice their sports, pay for "trainers," attend every one of their sons' games, but only occasionally review any of their school work, help them study, or ask about test grades or future exams? (too many dads only ACTIVELY show strong interest in the athletic areas). </p>
<p>Young men look to the males in their lives to determine what is "masculine," "sexy," and "cool" - unfortunately, excelling in academics in high school (and middle school) are not considered to be "manly," "sexy," or "cool."</p>
<p>Take your child to visit colleges, let him see the difference between hs and college....and consider enrolling him a year early.</p>
<p>Atlmom's advice is EXCELLENT...</p>
<p>My son wasn't that interested in college visits - until he went on a college visit! Go when school is in session. Go in the morning -eat breakfast and/or lunch where the kids eat on campus. Take the tour. Visit some spots not included on the tour. Make sure you visit the dorms, rec center, various campus eating venues (imp to kids). Check out a few "off campus" hangouts for a later snack or early dinner.</p>
<p>Once my son went on a college visit (start with a good school with a NICE campus), he got totally "on board" with the whole thing and couldn't wait to start!!! We went on his first college visit during his junior year.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone should take a "gap year" unless they have a real plan that they will stick to. </p>
<p>My son's friend took a gap year (last year). She followed her plan - up until Christmas... then she wished she was in school (you can get bored just traveling in Europe - month after month ;) ) She had to wait until fall 08 so that she would get to do all the orientation and stuff that new freshmen get to do. She worked part-time until fall "finally" rolled around.</p>
<p>Your kid sounds like a certain TV doctor...</p>
<p>"I am not at all opposed to his taking a gap year--- I am opposed to his not having a plan for the year. He isn't currently articulating much of a real plan. He is waffling about what to do. "</p>
<p>You can put the structure on it. My house rules are that after h.s., offspring can't continue to live at home rent free unless they are in college full time or are too ill to work. Offspring who want to do things like extensively travel while not going to school have to work to pay for such travel. There isn't a free ride. H and I have had to work to live the life we want, so should our kids.</p>
<p>Possibly due to this policy, even my college drop-out older S (He is brilliant, and thinks that college can teach him nothing because he learns what he wants to on his own) supports himself, and lives on his own. Also, after younger S missed the deadlines for applying to the colleges that interested him, within about 2 weeks, he had an Americorps position lined up. No evidence that he considered taking a gap year and just hanging out. He knew that he couldn't have afforded to do that.</p>
<p>Our kids know we love them dearly, but we also don't believe in allowing grown adults to leech off us.</p>
<p>"He is an odd combination of driven and lazy-- when taken with something, he can perform at an extraordinary level. He is also very good at finite "one shot" assignments--the big paper, the standardized test. Where he has real difficulty staying on task is with the repetitive small tasks-- daily homework, for example or daily journal writing for english. He is also very physically disorganized-- papers disappear, books are lost and dues dates forgotten."</p>
<p>Both of my sons are like this, and I've met lots of boys like that. The combination of traits seems more common among males than females. H and I spent lots of money -- therapy, medication (the boys also are ADHD, ADD), counseling on organization, etc. -- plus we spent lots of our personal time (checking homework, meeting with teachers, etc.) trying to help them.</p>
<p>Younger S got his act together after he chose to go to college, and had to go to college on his own dime because he'd messed up his senior year so much that H and I told him we wouldn't help pay for his college until S proved to us by getting decent grades for a year that he was worth our investment. </p>
<p>S loved his college, and wanted to be there for the right reasons -- small classes, nurturing professors, excellent academics (Things, incidentally, his older brother didn't value. That S looked for a college with huge classes so that professors wouldn't "bother him" as he put it, then he took advantage of that situation by not bothering to go to class in college). In college, younger S chose to apply all of the organizational things he'd been exposed to before, and he managed to be a Dean's list student while also participating in ECs, and working. Also developed close friendships with other serious students, and didn't allow a bad roommate situation (roommate partied heavily, was a slob, had sex in the room while S was trying to sleep) to deter him from getting good grades.</p>
<p>Older S has managed to develop good enough organizational skills to hold onto his job for 2 years while also living on his own and supporting himself. When ADD/ADHD smart people very much want to accomplish something, they can focus and organize themselves to do those things. They have to really want to do something, however. If they're going through the motions to please parents, etc., they won't focus enough to be organized.</p>
<p>Deirdre, your son's behavior is classic gifted child syndrome -- intense absorption in areas of interest, boredom and indifference when the subject matter is not interesting or already mastered, an abhorrence of busy work, a reluctance to give 100% effort to achieve traditional goals (the slowdown at the finish line) and -- most importantly -- the ability to think differently. </p>
<p>It sounds as if even though you've lived with this kid for 16 years and know and love his idiosyncrasies the college-thing puts another spin on the situation. </p>
<p>I think you've been given a lot of good advice so I'll just comment on a couple of points:</p>
<p>First, I agree with umpc said back in post #6: if your son is interested in academically challenging colleges, even the most selective, they will also be interested in him. Colleges like intellectually quirky kids, especially interesting kids who do interesting things with their free time. Would it be better to have more A's than B's, yes, but I don't see it as a deal breaker.</p>
<p>Second, I'd take a look at some of the small liberal arts colleges that can offer a lot of personal attention. These schools often take chances on kids who march to their own drummers and provide the structure and nurture to keep them on track. The classes are predominately discussion based and they really like original thinkers. Small LACs have distinctive characters. Since I don't know your son's preferences in location, in culture and personality type any recommendation would be a shot in the dark, but I'd start with Weselyan, Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Oberlin as places with the intellectual range that would make his head explode.</p>
<p>Third, a gap year, either before or after the college process is a great idea for someone who craves stimulus. The most successful gap years (which are really more like 15 months) are divided into segments with different focuses. For example a few months of travel and language study, a segment of outdoors adventure or sports, a community service stint and to round it off a menial job to defray expense. Structure is essential, but if he breaks the time down to 3-4 month portions it's not so intimidating.</p>
<p>Since it's already nearing the end of October, the time to make a decision to apply or not to apply is NOW. I hope you could convince him to give a few colleges a shot -- applying doesn't mean that he has to attend! Is there a counselor or a favorite teacher who could intercede? Does he have friends who will be applying to selective colleges? Would he be amenable to an overnight to get a feel for the experience?</p>
<p>Good luck to you with this extraordinary young man.</p>
<p>You've gotten lots of helpful comments about how to encourage your son and where to apply. I would only note that it's worthwhile pushing him to buckle down a bit before he goes to college. Should he be fortunate enough to get into a school like Caltech, Chicago, or MIT, his bad habits might undo him. It was certainly the case that when I went to Caltech some time ago, there were many kids who were truly brilliant who flamed out because of a lack of good study habits. [One quip used to be: "Caltech: Where your best isn't good enough."] Some of them really flourished in the new, high pressure environment. Others found that it was impossible to both "do interesting things" and cope with the much tougher curriculum. Sometimes, cleverness can be a crutch to avoid the thought of failure or to boost self-esteem (as in "I'm smarter than all those gits so who cares how I do with the busywork?" Well what happens when your classmates really are as smart or smarter than you?). As I tell my own son -- who sometimes complains about busywork -- much of what we do shouldn't be seen as mindless conformity but a rational adjustment to living in human society where reliability and perseverance are important components of productive civilization. Doing the right thing in a boring situation will buy your way into a more challenging and rewarding environment.</p>
<p>As others have mentioned, there are many opportunities at lots of good schools. And even at large, impersonal universities, there are always faculty who will love to work with bright, motivated students. If he's really that creative, my guess is he'll end up in grad school no matter which college he goes to.</p>
<p>DeirdeTours,
Is it at all possible to still submit the required application for advancement to NMF in the National Merit competition? I would at least call them and check.
If it's too late, be sure that he does at least list on his application that he was recognized as a National Merit Semi-finalist.
Recognition as NMSF or NMF would likely be of help in admissions at some colleges. It doesn't sound as though you are seeking merit aid but NMSF's, NMF's recognition can be important in the admissions process at some schools. </p>
<p>You might also take a closer look at Honors Programs and Honors Colleges at various universities. These may appeal to him as there are sometimes research opportunities, etc. for the participating students. Contact the Honors Department Chairs directly to seek additional information. Perhaps a mentoring program would be helpful in keeping him on track.</p>
<p>Momrath - good post.</p>
<p>DeirdreTours,
I would encourage him to get going on some Early Action applications. These can be for separate universities ........and he can also apply to some using The Common Application. Getting some early admission decisions from colleges could be a big lift to his spirits. He'd know he has some college options from which to choose.</p>
<p>Northstarmom-- I have read your posts re your sons with great interest over the last few months as my son seems similar in many ways to your older son. The experience you write about has made me think that a gap year may well be a good thing for him.</p>
<p>I also think he may have a more powerful application after completing his senior year-- particularly if he can stay on track with grades this year. His teachers think very highly of him and have already told us they expect that he will do very well on the IB exams.</p>
<p>I want the thank everyone for the comments and advice-- we are trying to push him to do a few applications-- but are absolutely not willing to do them for him. We are willing to push him to put together the best high school record he can, so that he will have the widest range of choices later.
He did turn in the National Merit Scholar packet-- he despises the sort of essay that is required-- that sort of introspective, gosh I am so special and here is what I have learned about myself sort of thing. He much prefers to write about world events, history, politics, science-- anything really that is outside of himself.</p>