Confront Unhealthy Friendship?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Can't sleep, need some advice, please!</p>

<p>D., 17, attractive, smart, accomplished athlete has a number of good friends, but has over the past year has also become close friends with a girl who from my own observations and some trusted sources (who volunteered info to me) is not into healthy stuff. I'm not talking bad substance stuff, more that she is very spoiled, manipulative, needy, ...gorgeous and uses it to reel in guys and then be very demanding and cruel to them. There is usually some drama going on. Also some risky behavior. Everyone (even d) seems aware that she is something of a brat. Anyway, d has become loyal defender of this girl and probably the girl's best friend even when she knows she is at fault. Friend has even dumped on her on occasion. D. is very non-confrontational by her own admission. I am sure that people who used to see d as together and nice are questionning her choice of friends and even her character. I am confused as to what the attraction is.....
maybe she is afraid to incur this girl's wrath if she stops being her friend?</p>

<p>I really would like to give my daughter a few messages; among them, "you can choose who you are friends with, you don't just have to respond to who calls you." (she is a little socially passive) and "people judge you by whom you choose to be friends with." I don't know what to do. I'm not sure she's aware of how much this girl is disrespected. I am not usually a judgemental person and don't like to gossip but have just heard and picked up too many things to feel comfortable saying nothing....any ideas? thanks</p>

2

<p>I know it's hard, but I really think the worst thing you can do is turn this "friend" into forbidden fruit. Your daughter will just put all her energy into defending the girl's actions and it will take her that much longer to see for herself what she's really like. This scenario plays out all the time. My old college roomie is a social worker and told me she sees this over and over and the parental negativity just exacerbates the whole thing and drives it onward. We had a similar situation which eventually blew over, but I sure had to do a whole lot of keeping my mouth shut before it did. Not that we didn't try to pass on a few of those "messages" as you say.</p>

3

<p>Go out of your way to be nice to the girl. Suggest that your D invite her over. When you and D are doing things, suggest that D ask the girl along. Your appearing to support the friendship may make it easier for D to see the girl's troubled side and to begin to distance herself from the girl. There's also the chance that the positive attention you give the girl might help her get on a good track. She may have parents who aren't good role models.</p>

4

<p>Friends with negative appeal are always problematic for parents. Protesting too much just seems to make them more attractive. </p>

<p>I wouldn't worry too much about how others view your daughter because of her relationship with this girl. Most likely everyone (except your daughter) can see clearly what's going on. From what you've said you don't need to worry about daughter being dangerously influenced by this girl (for example drugs, sex, crime . . .) but rather you are concerned that she's being manipulated by an insincere person. If you think your daughter is being pressured to join in what you call "risky behavior" then you may need to take more forceful action. Or, if as you imply, your daughter may actually be afraid of this girl, then you've got a more serious situation.</p>

<p>Is it your daughter's other friends who have brought you into the loop? Can you make sure that your daughter continues to socialize with friends who are more deserving? Can you have a non-threatening, non-judgmental heart to heart with your daughter? If it were my son (and it was on occasion) I would sit down and explain what was bothering me and why. The next step would depend on how she reacts.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, being taken advantage of by people of low character happens to the best of us. We learn, but we have to learn for ourselves. If this is the daughter who is off to Wesleyan next year then this situation will play itself out in a few months and you can squeeze by without over reacting.</p>

5

<p>I've read about what to do if your daughter has a boyfriend you think is dangerous, not what to do in the kind of situation you described, but the dynamics sound similar enough that I would think some of the same suggestions apply: It's probably counterproductive to badmouth the friend or to try to separate the two girls. I take it from what you wrote that your daughter still has other friends? If so, that's very good.</p>

6

<p>I agree with those posters that it just flames the situation to start critisising the friendship and bringing out the flaws. Beter to play along, to some degree as NSM suggests, but also finding some other things to keep the D ready. </p>

<p>M D had a boyfriend her freshman year that we felt was not a good friend at all, and had some concerns but got no where with them. It wasn't till the kid turned the corner and went truly nuts that D realized that she had a problem. She did not tell us about the situation until it was well over because we had expressed our concerns and things turned out even worse than we had feared. But she was away at school. When they are at home, there is a lot more you can do in the way of keeping them too busy to get together too much. We've been dealing with this with our son who tends to get involved with kids that are conducive to trouble, and he is right there leading the way. Bad for him, bad for them.</p>

7

<p>We had a similar situation where my son (granted, a middle schooler, but still) wanted to be with one of the "cool guys" all the time while ignoring his best friend who was the nicest kid.....We weren't happy with this new "friendship' at all, but my son found out by being around this cool kid that he had a very mean streak that eventually turned on my son......it basically just petered out on its own.......my son lost interest n contending with someone so nasty!</p>

8

<p>Thanks for all the input. I surely appreciate it. I do know that whatever happens d. will survive and learn something. I think what bothers me most is that I know that d has serious reservations about this girl and don't understand why she doesn't extricate herself. D. has always been independent; she is far from a "where you lead, I will follow" person. I just don't get it.</p>

9

<p>You might want to look at this book (The Gift of Fear, Gavin de Becker): <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440226198/qid=1106576209/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/002-9722235-2436836%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440226198/qid=1106576209/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/002-9722235-2436836&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>which does get into reasons why it can be difficult to extricate oneself from an unpleasant relationship.</p>

10

<p>I would hesitate to "encourage" the friendship, invite the girl over, etc., because 6 months from now, your daughter could very well say, "But Mom, you liked her too". can you tell D that you are very concerned about how different this girl is from D's other friends; tell her that other adults/students have expressed concern/worry about your daughter; I think it is important that she knows that even others have remarked about it. If you have a good open relationship with your daughter, and talk lovingly so it does not seem like criticism, it may at least sow the seeds. If I see a conversation going sour, I try and walk away from it, saying, "Well, it's only because I love you, and I care. Why don't you think it over".</p>

11

<p>My D had a friend that I wasn't keen on a few years ago and she got very upset with me when I expressed my concerns. D's interpretation was that I didn't like the girl, altho' it was only some of the behavior I was seeing that I didn't like. In addition, I just felt that something wasn't right. Fortunately, because I was able to articulate a few bahavior examples, D slowly began to agree with me that there were problems. Sure enough, later there was a diagnosis of a medical condition that has a psychological effect and "disturbed" was the word that described her condition. She was becoming more and more obsessed with my D as her illness progressed, but D had watched the situation because she had respected my reservations and didn't get in close enough to get sucked in like several other people did. Initially, expressing my concerns didn't seem to work and D resented my attitude, but over time, I was glad I had been honest with D and that she had been listening more than I had realized. It's really hard to find the right balance in these situations.</p>

12

<p>I think I hear a few "openings" for you to perhaps have a conversation with your daughter about this. It would be easiest if she ever brought up some annoying situation with the girl to you and that would then be a "lead-in" to more discussion. But if she is not bringing anything up....I also hear you saying two things in both your posts....one was that your D might be afraid of incurring this girl's wrath if she cools the relationship...and another thing you mentioned is that your D has some reservations about this girl but does not seem to be moving into extricating herself from the relationship. If you have ANY indication that your D might herself be questioning this girl, you could discuss ways of kinda putting up with the girl but not getting hooked into her "drama" and getting less involved. </p>

<p>I don't have this issue here but I can think of one girl since kindergarten who has always been very manipulative and there are always "dramas" between her and other girls....for years she has always been the type of "if you say or do this, you are not my friend anymore" and it was the only girl over the years I can think of where "friendship" was not fun. Many kids thought this of the girl but still were friends with her. As my daughter got older, she decided to not be enemies or anything but just to not be friends. So, if this girl was among a group of kids at school eating lunch or something like that, my D "tolerated" her and was able to "coexist" but never encouraged any friendship or plans with her and maintained that being "friends" with her was not worth it because it meant enduring all these "friend issues" constantly and she did not have that kind of drama with any other girl ever and it was all just too much. The girl had issues and while she may have some redeeming qualities, it was not fun being friends with her. </p>

<p>Now, I know that is not the same situation you are talking about but it still involves choosing to cool a friendship but still being civil or coexisting but not being super buddies. I don't know if your D ever discusses any frustrations she is having with this girl....you do say she has some "reservations" about this girl and I am imagining the only way you know that is she has said so. If she brings up anything like this again with this girl, you might have an opening to discuss how to deal with the situation....how she does not have to diss the girl but there are ways to cool it if she wants to. I guess I am just saying that you can discuss the situation (particularly if your D brings up anything along the lines of what you said she may be thinking) and talk through ways of dealing with it without coming across as "don't be friends with this girl!". You can ask her what she thinks about this or that in relation to the girl or the friendship, stuff like that. Just a thought.</p>

13

<p>Do you have other kids? Sometimes, I would have conversation about "other people", a character in a book, an old friend of mine, or asked my kids opinions about what a friend of mine should do about their own kids with a "similar", (camofloaged) situation...often it would open some eyes, I listened to what my kids said, and often, all on their own, they saw it.</p>

14

<p>If you ask about others, kids don't get defensive of their own friends. Sometimes, we will watch a movie, or tv show, and if anything even close comes up, I find a way to go, oh my, can you believe that....my girls sometimes figure out what I am doing, but as I am not "attacking: their friends, they are more willing to listen and learn. It works, as they can see the paralels.</p>

15

<p>Oh man. This subject hits close to home here. I've avoided discussing it here because I don't want to offend anyone reading it who might know us or what i'm talking about. But, it REALLY bothers me...probably more than anyhting else in my son's life right now or ever before. I've only recently realized how bad it is in our situation. Like yours, this one isn;t dangerous or drug related. But, I wonder about the psychological impact.</p>

<p>Here's what worries me:
I wonder if my son has some insecurities about himself that lead him to and keep him engaged in such an unsatisfying/manipulative/disappointing situation. I wonder if this pattern will continue.</p>

<p>Perhaps you worry about the same, Mom55.</p>

<p>Like your D, my son seems to know that the situation isn't good. He has even said things like "I'm worn out"....and.... "After this, I can handle anything". That being said, I worry about why he allows it to continue....why he doesn't feel like he can put his foot down and stand up for himself. There have been times when I can tell that he wants me to intrvene on his behalf. When he asks permission for something related to this person (he ususally doesn't aks permission for anything)...I know he's asking me to say no, giving him the "out". When I do say "no", he seems relieved. Problem is, he shouldn't feel like he needs me to say no. HE should be saying NO. He has totally lost all power in the situation. He's also blowing tons of money - and admits this is where it's going. We are not wealthy, the manipulative person is - so this part really ****es me off! All of his Christmas money is gone - close to $1k of it - and he has about $300 worth of his own stuff to show for it. The rest went to lavish dinners and this person's make-up gifts because this person was so dramatically unhappy about what the parents got them for Christmas - my son just "had" to make it up by buying this person what they wanted, but their parents didn't get. I found this out because my male cousins said that this was the conversation in the den during Christmas day brunch - and they all tried to talk him out of it after he got the phone call with the person so upset about what they got for Christmas - drama, drama, drama. </p>

<p>One of the things that I see these manipulative people do well is to alienate. If you D is spending time with other friends, that's a great thing (as others have said). She'll continue to have a realistic perspective because she can compare her relationship with the manipulator against that of other friends. Have hope in this.</p>

<p>People seem to think that this will blow over. I hope so. I'm sure you are hearing the same, as you are here. I just hope that when it does blow over, the behavior won't repeat and the lesson will be learned. In my son's case, I believe he is acting out of a sense of not wanting to hurt this person, as he has always been been concerned about the feelings of others - in this case, overly so. </p>

<p>As in the other cases mentioned here, there's lots of drama. </p>

<p>UGH, I can feel my blood boiling just thinking about it. I keep telling myself that this is an experience that will teach a life lesson and he'll come through it a better person. I just hope we don't go broke in the process. I'm considering handing out the allowance in smaller increments so that it won't all get spent in the first few days. But, maybe that's not my place. Let him go without lunch or gas money.....I don't know. </p>

<p>Mom55, I feel for you and your D. As a mom, I just want waive a wand and make this go away. </p>

<p>I can PM you some links to summer programs in far-away places that exchange housing for work :) Between that and going off to college, we might only only have a few more months to deal with this. </p>

<p>Thank you for surfacing this topic.</p>

16

<p>I've found that asking open ended questions about some of my daughter's friends who seem questionable (for whatever reason) seems to get her mind going.
The trick is to keep the questions non-critical. A good one, for example, is to ask
"Why do you think so-and-so reacted the way she did?" --- Then just be quiet and listen. It seems to work particularly well in "drama" situations, at least with my daughter.</p>

17

<p>Carolyn - that sounds like a really good suggestion. Thinking back, those open ended questions have prompted the more meaningful dialogue. What's odd about soem of these situations (such as mine and Mom55) is that our kids seem open about the fact that the situation isn't good. i.e. Q:"Why do you think she reacted the way she did" A: "because she's a horrible brat who always overreacts to everything"..</p>

<p>What do you do with that?</p>

18

<p>Then I say, "But why is she such a horrible brat? Do you think she will ever change? What do you tell her to do when she acts like that?"</p>

<p>As I said, my daughter has had a few friends that set my teeth on edge in this exact same way - I felt like she was wasting her time being the foil for their drama. And, maybe to a certain extent, that's part of the appeal - she gets to live vicariously through their actions/reactions which are so different from her own typical behavior. In my daughter's case, she usually tires of the role after a while but she is not very good at cutting off these sorts of relationships entirely. She's simply too nice.</p>

19

<p>This is a tough situation because it indicates a weakness on your child's part--a child who is soon leaving home. </p>

<p>Difficult people are 'high-maintenance" people. The demands of a high maintenance friend are troublesome but a high-maintenance spouse can eat up a life. We have a number of examples of this in our family, in my generation. I talk about it with my boys.</p>

<p>So, when S tells me a story about such and such a girl throwing plates at him, I ask, "And what do we say about high-maintenance women?"</p>

<p>And he answers , "Don't marry them!" </p>

<p>Exactly.</p>

<p>The trouble is, there is a bit of enabling going on from the person who allows themselves to be engaged in this matter. One relative said he was sure he could 'save' his wife from her bad behaviour and bad life. He was intrigued by her outlier status. Well, it ain't so intriguing after ten years but he's good and stuck in her bad life.</p>

<p>Perhaps you could talk about examples of "high maintenance" relationships in you family or in your neighborhood. Other than that, I would emphasize the positive relationships in your D's life and the reasons you think they are positive. </p>

<p>My S had a couple of friends from the UK who stopped in and stayed with us for a week. I still ahven't stopped swooning about those delightful, low maintenance women. He said, "I knew you'd like them!"</p>

20

<p>Momsdream-yes and yes to what Carolyn has suggested. Another questions I would ask my kiddos if they presented this situation would be the follow-up question to "she's a horrible brat" would be "are YOU a horrible brat?", "do you become a horrible brat when you hang out with them?" and "is friend so-and-so a horrible brat to YOU?". No lectures just questions. I often remind my children that when they are angry or upset with a friend that comes from a place of hurt. And sometimes friends can inadvertenly hurt them, but when it becomes a pattern and repetitive than they are no longer a "friend." Maybe they never were.</p>

<p>With 5 teenagers there has been some friend stuff around but it is usually VERY quickly stopped by the other sibling. Especially since the birth order is girl-boy-girl-boy.. the girls make it uncomfortable for the boys and the brothers just scare the heck out of everyone else!!</p>

<p>And Momsdream as far as your son spending that large sum of money (that's a huge sum in our family) obviously gas money, car availability, lunch money, permission to go to dinner, permission to SNEEZE is all run by me in my house. Granted 2 of mine are all legally adults, soon to be 3, but they all HAVE to run it by me. My house, my rules ALL THE TIME. Now if it came down to physically enforcing those rules I would be in deep doo-doo, (3 football players and just me, the mom) but they all do abide by them.</p>

<p>I guess at some point the questions, the suggestions, the advice and the listening comes to a stop in my house. I draw the line, and my kiddos know it. Heck if they look at me funny they are in trouble!!! By the same token all their friends that have huung out our house over the years know the same rules apply to them while in my house. They would rather not trash-talk, not drink and not smoke and refrain from any bratty, selfish or extremely annoying behaviors and still get to visit everyday rather than be not welcome. Of course, its a little harder to maintain peace with a ton of football players than a handful but it can and was done in my household.</p>

<p>And yes, as Carolyn has mentioned, some of our children can be too nice. It's my job to be not so nice. I am sure some days my middle name is "mother mean" but that is okay with me. Besides, the kids just think it, they would never SAY it to me!!!</p>

<p>Mom55, as you have said your daughter knows what is going on and hasn't managed to leave the friendship or at least minimize it. Maybe she needs your "permission" to do so, meaning it would be okay for her to be less than "best friends" with this person. That action in itself might seem "mean" to your daughter and she doesn't want to be guilty of being a rotten friend. Again, that would be my job, to re-assure its not mean to do so, but to stay friends with someone when you don't like their behaviors, actions and attitudes is "mean". It is not sincere to the friend, but more importantly, to one's self.</p>

<p>If your daughter does not respect her friend (that's a big word in our house) than she has no business being her friend. Respect, trust, like, appreciate, enjoy, and do so sincerely, are what friendships are based on, and my kids have that repeated to them often.</p>

<p>Hope this helps,
Kat</p>