<p>JM, just this week there was an article in the NY Times about Afghanistan vets enrolling at Columbia University on the GI bill. Apparently, they are a close knit group- a little older than the usual undergrad. One, like you, had an inauspicious start in college- he’s now getting As.
Here’s the article:[With</a> New G.I. Bill, More March From Battlefield to College - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/09/nyregion/09gis.html?pagewanted=all]With”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/09/nyregion/09gis.html?pagewanted=all)
Good luck!</p>
<p>he gonna get pwned</p>
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<p>Thank you for saying this, Hornet. I ‘get’ what you were saying. I have a friend whose oldest is at an Ivy League school and whose next child (who is a year out of HS) is not even planning to go to college. They ‘get’ that to a large extent kids come out of the womb with their own set of strengths, weaknesses and desires. To their credit, they honor both kids for their choices, instead of trying to force the 2nd child to live up to the image of the first. The best any parent can do is provide their children with the best education possible and exposure them to a strong set of values. Beyond that, you have little control.</p>
<p>I have found that most parents are loathe to discuss any struggles with their child. Sometimes I think we are a culture that is more about ‘putting up appearances’ than communities and relationships. This leaves people feeling very isolated and alone when it comes to struggles with parenting and in our marriages. It’s a sad state of affairs and I, for one, am tremendously grateful for the opportunity to share my struggles with people on the internet. Sometimes, they are the most supportive people in my life.</p>
<p>Hornet and MomLive–I agree completely. I think we would be so much better off if we were actually honest with others instead of putting up such a facade. When I see a friend and ask “How are you?”, I mean it. It just seems like like interactions would be so much more supportive (both from the giving and getting end of things) if people were truthful.</p>
<p>This thread has been good for me. In my community, one would never know from the parents that there is any trouble in paradise…and I live in a rural part of the state where there is absolutely no pressure to achieve in high school, nor pressure to attend college. I can only imagine how it is in a more academically intense environment.</p>
<p>barbara960, thanks for the link. I’ve been looking at Columbia GS for a while now… it’s actually how I found CC. ;)</p>
<p>JM, congrats and thanks. Have you found very many of your fellow soldiers with a similar background - some college?</p>
<p>The new GI bill is more like the old GI bill that my husband went to school on. Thank heaven they restored those benefits - our society gains so much by rewarding those who serve. I hope you will post on your return to college. Good luck!</p>
<p>The majority of my clients are young men that have done poorly in college, despite being very bright in many ways. He can probably succeed, without a military route. The first thing you need to figure out is why he failed out. “Lack of maturity” is too simplistic of an answer, so try to be more precise. Low motivation, poor academic skills, etc. are more descriptive. Also, please bear this in mind- failure can recur, so formulating an effective re-entry strategy will be the key to success. Try not to send him to a community college. I’ve had parents adopt that strategy and CC’s seem like a good option, but have low levels of student engagement.</p>
<p>Just as you son will a attempt a “do-over,” you need to think those terms yourself. Look back to high school in terms of grades and things that were missed. Many of my students had undiagnosed depression, anxiety, very subtle learning disabilities, etc. that were not caught by the educational system. Contacting his high school counselor may not be effective, since he’s done.</p>
<p>Can you have the record expunged? Generally, no, not without a compelling reasons. If there was an undiagnosed medical or learning condition, then yes, you can try. In my experience, 4-year schools are somewhat more accepting of this than CC’s, but there’s no guarantee. Also, getting the do-over (what I call re-entry) right will be the key issue. If this happens twice, then he may need to take a year or more off before a good college will touch him. </p>
<p>Please bear this in mind for re-entry planning: Boys generally graduate from college at a lower rate than girls. The lowest graduation rates are for boys at public schools, with only about 25 % (2009 nationwide average) finishing in 4 years, and only about half finishing in 6 years. While more expensive, private colleges may be a better route, since the graduation rates are higher. Although, what would be more expensive- a private college or 2 more years of tuition/room/board at a public college.</p>
<p>Free free to PM me if you’d like. I’m fairly familiar with you situation.</p>
<p>Thanks syrstress, mom of three, momlive, shrinkrap and others-your comments have been kind and helpful. I appreciate the honesty and, reading this thread has helped me become more confident in encouraging my son to look at a gap year program. As one of you pointed out, maturity can have a big impact on readiness. My son has begun to recieve acceptance letters from schools and we are looking carefully at which ones allow a one year deferral (all do so far). I don’t think living at home and working is the appropriate next step. Does anyone know of good service programs for a gap year? How about Americorps/Citiyear? Has anyone had a child do this one? Is it a “safe” program?</p>
<p>My younger S did a post h.s. gap year with Americorps. He was a high score kid with low grades who almost didn’t graduate from high school due to laziness, irresponsibility, and procrastination. </p>
<p>By his choice, he decided to do Americorps in our town and to live at home. We charged him rent, and he had to pay for gas for the car that he used. That way, he developed a reasonable idea of how much things cost and how one can’t live comfortably in the kind of jobs most people get when they don’t have a college education.</p>
<p>We treated S like an adult. We didn’t wake him up for work, fix his lunch or do anything to make sure he handled his work responsibilities. We also didn’t give him a curfew.</p>
<p>S was someone who had always loved community service, and had previously done extensive community service. He enjoyed his gap year, and since Americorps lets you run with your talents, he ended up directing Americorps youth programs in a several county area. He also supervised volunteers and helped with emergency preparedness.</p>
<p>He had to do monthly reports, and from doing that learned that it’s not just in school where one has to write things in a timely matter.</p>
<p>He got excellent training including in time management, career planning and grant writing. Americorps sent him to a statewide training conference and an out of state one. </p>
<p>When he went to a 2nd tier LAC with merit aid (He probably got the merit aid due to his Americorps experience), he was responsible and very grateful to be in college realizing that it’s the sweet time in one’s life when the world revolves around you and your learning. He took advantage of the variety of courses college offers and the variety of interesting ECs. He had the independence to go to campus activities even if none of his friends were interested in it. </p>
<p>Despite having a freshman roommate who partied a lot and who would have driven many less mature roommates to distraction, S kept to his study schedule and has been on deans list or higher throughout his 3 years in college. He has accomplished that while working 10-14 hours a week, being in a variety of ECs, and taking a full courseload.</p>
<p>“Essentially, the point I was attempting to stress is that in spite of our best efforts and careful parenting, children will struggle. It is easy to judge parents negatively when their children struggle. In academic communities such as the one I live in, it is difficult to find others who feel they can openly talk about problems such as this thread addresses.”</p>
<p>I agree that kids come out of the womb with their own personalities. I think that very little of what kids do is related to parenting.</p>
<p>In my academic communities, I have known many highly educated parents who had done everything possible to support their kids’ education who still had kids who didn’t go to college or who dropped out. If one were to talk to older S about his opinion of college, he’d tell you that he thinks it’s a total waste of time. He flunked out freshman year and never returned. Yet, he was the 5th generation in my family to go to college, and he basically grew up on a college campus because for much of his life, my husband and I were college professors.</p>
<p>Thank you ssppgh for your supportive information. And yes, maturity is certainly just one factor.</p>
<p>ssppgh—Just curious as to why you don’t recommend CC for kids that could not make it their first year of collage and returned home. My daughter is now attending CC and will complete her 2 year degree in May. Do you feel that the transition to a 4 year will be difficult?</p>
<p>Momma-three, my S1 completed his 2-yr degree at CC then transferred to a 4-yr university where he will graduate in May. It wasn’t a bad transition but he did note that CC tranfers face some disadvantages. He entered as a junior (yes, all of his CC credits transferred!) but felt like a new freshman in terms of learning a new school and the ins-and-outs of campus life which most freshmen learn in their first year. Ditto for making friends. Third year transfer students are at a disadvantage to their same-year peers who have had two extra years to establish relationships with other students and professors. S1 is an introverted guy, and he hadn’t been at the university long enough to have a working relationship with any professors who could write him recommendations for summer jobs or internship programs between his junior and senior year. Finally, he also observed that the classroom standards and expectations at the university were higher than at his CC, so he had to work harder to earn the same grades. </p>
<p>On the plus side, S1 observed that the CC transfer students tend to be more mature and disciplined about their time and studies. They have worked hard to get to the university and tend to regard their education as a privilege, so they are less likely to go crazy partying. He got involved with some clubs and activities which helped ease the transition and helped him to make friends. He became president of his dorm and worked on the dorm council. And he learned to cook so that he didn’t have to hike across campus to the dining halls since none were near his dorm. </p>
<p>I wish that I had been reading College Confidential several years ago because I picked up tips from his college forum about dorms and campus life which might have helped with the transition. And I also learned - 2 semesters too late - about checking the campus bookstore website prior to the semester for the list of required textbooks, then ordering used books online from Amazon, Half.com and Alibris. This would have saved us a lot of money.</p>
<p>Finally, as a parent whose child has successfully navigated the CC route, I disagree with ssppgh’s assessment:
This is a sweeping generalization. Like any college, the quality of CCs varies from state to state/area to area. Our local CC offers an honors track to motivated students. There is a high degree of student engagement in this track. And the students who graduate from this particular CC tend to do well enough that they are guaranteed admission to any 4-year university in our state. I cannot speak for CCs in other states or localities.</p>
<p>My D is also a successful transfer from CC. When she started CC, it was the most attractive viable option for her. She has been fortunate that she had friends from HS at the U she transferred to (entering as a 2nd semester sophomore), so her transition was smoother than it might have been. She still does feel that she missed out somewhat on the “freshman experience,” so she and her friends will be renting a place in the new apartment building being built to have some of that component she feels she missed out on.</p>
<p>It’s great that some CCs offer a more robust honors track and other options. The CC my D attended is the flagship of our state and has many transfers to the flagship U. Unfortunately, they have a ways to go in increasing engagement of the student body.</p>
<p>I still think the CCs are an underutilitzed option that can really help kids – giving them a bit more time and attention while they sort out their options. It’s really a bargain as well for them to get credits inexpensively.</p>
<p>If the student communicates with the U s/he wants to transfer to, the counselor can provide advice about which courses are likely to transfer & fulfil requirements at the U. This was very helpful to our D when she matriculated at the private university in last January. Almost all her credits did transfer and she’s on track to graduate 4 years from when she left HS (if we can’t convince her to stay one extra semester).</p>
<p>“he did note that CC tranfers face some disadvantages. He entered as a junior (yes, all of his CC credits transferred!) but felt like a new freshman in terms of learning a new school and the ins-and-outs of campus life which freshmen learn in their first year. Ditto for making friends. Third year transfer students are at a disadvantage to their same-year peers who have had two extra years to establish relationships with other students and professors. S1 is an introverted guy, and he hadn’t been at the university long enough to have a working relationship with any professors who could write him recommendations for summer jobs or internship programs between his junior and senior year. Finally, he also observed that the classroom standards and expectations at the university were higher than at his CC, so he had to work harder to earn the same grades.”</p>
<p>I experienced all these same things, but did not view any of them as negatives besides the social aspects-- and being a 19-20 year old freshman, I don’t think, would be any better than being a 20 year old junior, like everybody else, in a freshman’s body. The problem with not having that time to establish relationships like everyone else is that you end up assimilating with the 18 year olds, who are too young to relate to you. My floormates are all college freshmen but they are still in high school in many ways, I graduated three years ago, and it is MAKING ME INSANE. You have to find ways to break into the social groups of kids your own age, which you still have to do if you are a 19-20 year old freshman, unless you held off on maturing by not going to CC.</p>
<p>As for the rest, those challenges made me a much more proactive student and honestly made me who I am today. I started a hugely ambitious student organization in my first semester, I got an internship in my field, and I am thriving academically. I don’t know if I could be more introverted, I am actually presently being screened for aspergers because my social problems are that serious. Really. Haven’t made a new friend in 9 years, would never have thought to go talk to professors before, none of that kind of stuff was even on my radar. The challenges presented by transferring from a CC FORCED me to break out of my usual mold. That is not a bad thing. I wish all college juniors had the maturity and discipline I gained from facing those exact challenges you list, they would be better off for it.</p>
<p>That said, yes, there are very real negatives to transferring from a CC, as you noted and beyond. I just don’t think you are getting away from anything by not going to a CC at all and just trying to stick it out at a 4 year you aren’t ready for or taking time off and coming back. It isn’t the CC that creates these problems, this is just what happens when you don’t take the traditional route, in any way, and if you have to come home during freshman year because you are failing in some way you are off the beaten path anyway. CC is a great way to salvage the situation.</p>
<p>I have also recommended CC at a dinner party I recently attended, where the dad indicated his D wasn’t sure what she wanted to do once she graduated from HS in the spring. He brightened when I told him about our D’s experiences.</p>
<p>It does help to be outgoing when you have to make new friends & break in after the other kids have bonded as freshmen & you’re entering as a transfer, but as you say above, there are good things that happen as well. In any case, it is one option to seriously consider and beats many alternatives while a better long term solution is being worked on.</p>
<p>On the whole, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. But anyone transferring from a CC to a 4-yr U should go in with their eyes open.</p>
<p>Flip burgers at McDonald</p>
<p>Seems to me that flipping burgers at McDonalds might require serious competency in a foreign language around here.</p>
<p>asian75… you have alot to learn</p>