I know times are different now, but H is a very successful engineer, both now and before he started his own engineering company. He barely graduated from college with a 2.0, not because he was dumb, but because he was far more interested in way too many activities. Who wants to study when you can go sailing (or fill in the blank)?
30 years later he owns the company, has done projects on 5 continents, and never has to advertise because he gets all of his work via word of mouth.
It probably helped that he started off in the Navy (via ROTC), but once out, he got that first private engineering job (at the first place he interviewed), did well, and never looked back. For most of his working life he’s turned down headhunters.
I’m not sure judging solely off GPA is all that wise. I know it’s done - probably more now than 30 years ago (hence grade inflation at many schools), but I’m not sure it’s wise. Many times intelligent humans are those who know how to get the important things done and skip out on the rest. I see that in school a fair bit (and always try to get them to see how grades can matter, but I’m definitely not always successful). My own youngest fits in that category. I don’t even know what his college GPA was, but he graduated and always has impressed every employer he’s had from mundane (waiter job) to more important (career job). He’s sought after often. Some things are not measurable by GPA.
@Creekland – to your point, my college roommate’s Dad almost flunked out of his highly ranked state flagship. Had to pull almost straight As the last semester to get over 2.0. and graduate. (One reason: he was poor and worked many hours in college.) He was very successful in business, gave a lot of $$ to the college, and 30 years later was asked to give a commencement address to the business grads. He relished telling his story and the fact that his professors would NEVER have expected him on that stage b/c he came so close to not even crossing that stage!
That said – he was in college in the 1960s and anyone with a college degree had a leg up over most everyone. Today, I think grades certainly matter more – unless you’re an entrepreneur…
@Creekland That isn’t what I said. I indicated that I’m not likely to offer an interview to a young candidate with a relatively low GPA. How can I justify overlooking a stack of resumes with higher demonstrations of commitment when no proven track record yet exists? Sure, once a candidate has built an impressive resume through job experience, a GPA means very little, as does the college attended. But to suggest moving on from a candidate with a big red flag to focus on a dozen others without one is somehow unwise? No one’s going to get hired without more to offer than a good GPA, but taking a chance on a kid without one is just a risk not worth taking.
The psychiatrist who administered the neuropsych testing seemed positive he didn’t have ADHD. He’s played chess for many years, and can focus on 4+ hr games. He is distracted by stupid videos on his computer, but lots of kids are. We think it’s a case of wanting to have fun and being overly confident in his abilities, plus having an extremely low stress level.
We had helped him figure out how to keep a study schedule, he finally bought a planner, and he was supposed to meet with his advisor every couple of weeks when he headed back second semester, but all that went by the wayside apparently
He claims to regret going to the beach and not turning in the paper, but do I think he’d do it again? Yes. He doesn’t have a car, and he wouldn’t miss the vacation. And, he met Zion Williamson at the beach, and got a picture with him, so hopefully that will be worth something someday, if he can’t get his priorities in check, lol.
I greatly appreciate everyone’s input and plan to implement some strategies. ??
@AlmostThere2018 H was told by one of his engineering profs that he’d never make an engineer too, yet here he is. Even back in the day he passed his EIT and PE quite easily the first time he took them - very little study required. Life is interesting sometimes. The difficulty is knowing whether the 2.0 (or whatever) is someone who studies a bit to get up to that grade or someone who is very intelligent, but otherwise occupied (for fun or work) bringing their score down.
I recall fondly one really bright young lad at school who did so little he was put into our easiest (definitely not college prep material - 8th grade level) classes and almost failed those. He did fail some. High school graduation for him was iffy, but he made it. I asked him in one class why he didn’t put just a little bit more effort in to at least move up in classes and he told me it was all too boring - he hated it and didn’t care to do any “busywork” including tests/quizzes. Needless to say he didn’t get to do much after graduation.
About 4 years later I saw him in our local mall when I was there with my youngest son. He pulled my lad aside and told him, “listen to your mom” and went on to say a bit more. I learned he bummed around from low end job to low end job and finally decided to do something with his life so took college entrance tests, scored really well on them and went to a state school. His major? Physics. He had a 4.0 at the time (2 years in) and never had to take a remedial CC course. He was able to pick up everything he needed in the classes he had. It was a really great update to his story.
Most students fall inside the bell curve. Some are way outside of it. I know when I’m teaching I can tell who has the intelligence and who tries their best yet still gets a C, but I have no idea how to convey that to others if I’m not writing the LOR - and who knows if the other end believes the LOR.
I know we sat in on a presentation from the head of a top medical teaching hospital/med school and the very accomplished doctor told us he was thankful he went to med school “back in the day.” He said he wouldn’t have had the stats to be a janitor at the med school if he had to go by today’s standards to get in. I’m sure that was hyperbole, but probably with some truth to it. He didn’t have the answers for how to fix it either. There’s a lot more competition out there now and it’s “easy” to look at GPA and other “stats” for differentiation.
Self discipline is hard. There are always more attractive options than what needs to be done. (I recall a colleague telling me her house was the cleanest it had ever been when she was running her one person consultancy from home because everything seemed more fun than work!) I am better than I once was and still need to improve, and I have had decades of experience, so I get it.
OP, I think it can help to acknowledge this to your son as well. Maybe he can turn it around right away and for good. In all likelihood though, he’ll do better and then there’ll be some back-slipping. You don’t want him to feel he’s failed when that happens, just that he needs to get back on track as quickly as possible. (It’s the difference between having a cookie when you’re on a diet and deciding that you’ll eat better tomorrow and deciding to finish the cookies and maybe have ice cream with them because why not?) And you could suggest that he think through how he might respond to friends who are luring him away from work when he needs to get it done if that’s the problem. I do think it’s helpful when a person is struggling to acknowledge their challenge.
Another anecdote which may or may not be useful: my brother, smart as a whip, tanked his grades in college. Joined a fraternity, put most of his energies into organizing “creative activities” (euphemism) that his fraternity could stage…nothing so destructive… but silly. Had a great time. Barely graduated. “Wasted” his education. (Of course, college was not nearly as expensive then). Met his now-wife, a women with innate business skills. After he scraped by, living hand-to-mouth as managing editor for tiny publications for three or four years, had the chance to start a business with his wife. something entirely unique. The two of them worked doggedly (yes, my brother too) and built something from nothing. They never gave up. They sell their products and services internationally. They’re quite affluent… wealthy, really, and raised two fine sons (one of which is taking over the business), So, you never know.
I wouldn’t hesitate to have a serious/heart to heart talk if I were you, or point out some natural consequences or help him structure his time better. I’d be concerned too if he were my child. I’d probably be wringing my hands, in fact. I’d wonder whether to pay the costs if he loses his scholarship. But all may not be lost. He’s still probably learning a lot that will help in in life, though maybe not in the ways you think. Sometimes it’s hard to do nothing, to wait and see, let life take its course. But like others have said, your son may just have a different path to success than you did.
Was that a psychiatrist or neuropsych. who said he did not have ADHD. Generally neuropsychologists administer testing.
I would see a psychiatrist who is skilled in that area (like in a clinic). The questionnaire is the tool for diagnosis (not to repeat myself!). And interview with psychiatrist.
People with ADHD hyperfocus. This is not understood by many. Focusing on 4 hour+ games would fit in that category, possibly.
Clearly, diagnosis or not, there is a problem that needs support of some kind. I prefer the word “support” to “monitoring” or “intervention” or “consequences” because of the positive connotations, which may foster the kind of relationship that gets results over time.
ps I have also seen what I call a “head in the sand” syndrome, where kids go into a weird denial and maybe go to the beach instead of dealing
Agreeing with @compmom — many many kids with ADD (especially inattentive subtype, vs hyperactive) are capable of hyperfocusing on a specific task, especially when (1) the task is high interest and (2) distractions are significantly reduced (as in a chess match). For example, its really common for a kid who can’t focus in a busy, noisy, distracting classroom to be perfectly capable of sitting on the floor in a quiet bedroom with a pile of legos, totally engrossed for hours in the task of building some amazing creation he has in his head. That is not in any way proof that the child doesn’t have ADD.
Attention “Deficit” Disorder is a bit of a misnomer, because the problem isn’t lack of attention as much as it’s too much attention paid to too many things. That’s why EF issues tend to go hand-in-hand with ADD — when there are so many assignments and deadlines and projects, it’s hard to prioritize them and focus on one at a time. It just all feels like a huge overwhelming cloud hanging over their heads. And that often creates anxiety, which can lead to kids purposely adding even more distractions in order to push some of the impending deadlines out of mind for a little while, to provide temporary relief from feeling so anxious and overwhelmed.
As compmom said, ADD is diagnosed by a psychiatrist on the basis of the DSM checklist, which addresses patterns and behaviors in daily life. There is no “test” for ADD, like the WISC or Woodcock-Johnson or other types of tests that are usually part of a neuropsychologist eval.
@havenoidea: I wonder if your son would prefer a school such as Colorado College where students take one course per term. Or at Dartmouth College where students take 3 courses per trimester / quarter.
@thumper1: I agree. Just curious if OP thinks that a school with just one or three courses per term would have been a better match for her son & his attention / study style at this stage of his young life.
P.S. This line of thought was raised by the posts about ADD. I do not know, but I think that OP’s son is just a normal kid going through a typical growth phase. OP understood as OP had suggested that son take a gap year.
I also think that the Cornell GTO was a curse, not a blessing, in this case & there may be a touch of self sabotage going in. The Cornell GTO, essentially, meant that OP’s son was continuing with the stressful college application process. I suspect that the student just wanted a final decision & a chance to enjoy his 4 years at one school. Too much guilt associated with turning down an Ivy League school for a non-top 20 LAC. Shouldn’t be, but student has two very high achieving parents.
P.S. Although this may seem counterintuitive, if this were my son, I would praise the positive. Criticism & negatives destroy energy, positives create energy. Plus, based on OP’s posts in this thread, I really like OP’s son & wish that there were more like him.
In my view, anyone with a 33 or 34 ACT score & an outgoing social personality is going to do quite well in life. He is active, healthy, social, highly intelligent & sensitive (as evidenced by reaction to girl saying no). Plus, he has high achieving parents. He will do fine, but on his timetable.
“it seems unlikely he’ll have a 3.0 at this point.”
He’s got three semesters to get the 3.0. Were his grades this semester an upward trend, but just not enough to bring cumulative to 3.0. Or did he do worse. I think that’s important information.
Let him know that if he loses the scholarship that the amount will be in him, then step back.
That way whatever happens is between him and his school.
Perhaps high achieving parents are more likely to feel disappointed if the kid’s achievement shows a downward generational trend, even if it is fine.
Suppose a kid graduates college with a 3.1 GPA and gets a $60,000 per year job at graduation. If the kid’s parents had full-Pell-grant income and did not attend college themselves, would they be more likely to be ecstatic at their kid’s achievement than if the kid’s parents had no-FA-anywhere income and graduate or professional degrees?
I mentioned what I have privately termed “head in the sand syndrome.” I actually believe you provided a pretty good explanation for that. Creating new distractions to avoid the anxiety of dealing with the first ones. Hence the apparent ignoring of a deadline in favor of some other activity. Lightbulb moment for me, thanks to your post.
This discussion has gotten away from the original poster’s intent, partly because the son has not been diagnosed, but it has been interesting and hope helpful too.
@compmom The OP does reference a psychiatrist saying her son does not have ADHD back in post #83. Not sure you can accurately say " the son has not been diagnosed".
Sub-standard performance (and I wouldn’t necessarily say a 2.7 GPA fits that) and poor decision making isn’t always related to diagnoses for ADHD, ADD, executive functioning issues or other such things.
@doschicos I am aware of post #83, as you will see if you read all my prior posts.
@Corraleno and I both explained why we think that that psychiatrist (neuropsych?) probably could not accurately say one way or the other about the ADHD -and that the OP should take the son to a psychiatrist expert in such things, who uses the questionnaire. Neuropsych. evals don’t reliably prove one way or the other. There is no “test” for ADHD).
And I did not ever say that ADHD (they are no longer using “ADD”) was an explanation for the problem. I did mention it should be ruled out. Many other posts kind of ran with the whole ADHD thing and I called it a “tangent” and pointed out that the discussion had “gotten away from the OP.”
I have said more than once that REGARDLESS of cause, my personal belief is that support and problem-solving (versus talk of “consequences”) can be helpful in the long run because that preserves the all-important relationships.
But the forum has all kinds of parenting philosophies. In the end, consistency may be the key thing.
ps we had a neuropsych. tell us our daughter didn’t have ADHD but at least he had the decency to tell us that a test of distractabilty in a one on one session with the radio on was hardly accurate. A psychiatrist who specialized in ADHD told us our kid had severe ADHD, which was truly helpful. We all give advice based on our experience.
In any case a diagnosis would not solve the problem at hand. Medication for ADHD can help with issues like sustaining focus in a classroom, but not the more global issues like skipping classes or deciding to participate in a time-consuming sport when GPA is rocky. Some of these are legitimate choices – I’m sure colleges are full of athletes who are happy to prioritize their sport over academics, and for some students long term that works out well.
But even if a student is has a diagnosis and accommodations from the university – those are things like extended time on tests – it’s not going to address the issue of anticipated loss of the scholarship. Whether you attach a diagnostic label or not – this student has a history of making poor choices and either needs to work on figuring out why and what to about it, or adjusting expectations overall. His decision to continue with his sport was not a short-term, impulsive decision (like the beach thing) – it’s a deliberate choice, made against his parents’ wishes – and something that needs to be reconciled against the potential future loss of the merit scholarship.
Again – it’s possible that it is a good choice for him. There may be value in his participation in the sport that the parents have failed to recognize or acknowledge. So maybe the parents need to be open to listening to the son about why he values that sport so much. Because I see three possibilities:
Son manages to pull out of the problem and raise his GPA, and maintains the scholarship.
Son loses scholarship – parents refuse to fill the gap – and the son leaves college after the next semester.
Son loses the scholarship, but parents decide to support him nonetheless because they decide that in the end their son’s happiness & social development are more important than the money – and that an undergrad degree with a C+ or B- GPA is preferable to no degree at all, or all the disruption that would happen if the son was pulled from school and brought home.
I think it’s best if the parents don’t open the door to option #3 right now – they can always decide on that later, and they probably need to at least try to send the message to the kid that he will own the consequences of his own bad choices. But in the end he son is only going to make the changes that he is motivated to make; and he may need specialized help (like therapy or counseling) to address some of his issues, whether or not there is a diagnostic label attached. So might be worthwhile to see what campus resources are for that as well.
OP, I have no idea what you should do, but I sympathize with you. My ds heads off to college this fall and also needs to maintain a 3.0. Hoping for the best, but I have no clue how it’s going to go.
Some kids are just too immature to fully understand the consequences of their decisions.
I can only imagine the kind of stress this is causing, but if you take a long-term perspective, 5 years from now, he’ll likely have a degree and a job, and everything will be fine.
If he were sitting around smoking weed all day and/or playing video games, that’s one thing. I’d say pull him. But he’s not. He’s involved in a lot of positive activities. He’s just prioritizing other stuff over school work Probably burned out from the rat race of the HS and enjoying his freedom. Sounds like he is very happy.
You’ve already said you can afford to lose the award, I think your best course is to pass along whatever level of financial consequece you can from losing the scholarship, but let him stay and graduate. He’s not going to become a lawyer or MD, but there isnt much you can do about it. He can still be very sucessful in almost all areas without a high college GPA.
My brother was just like your son, just really didnt care much about school or grades - just had a good time and did enough to graduate. Graduated from a solid school with a ~2.x. Spent some time in lousy jobs like house painting. Finally around 26 or so, the light went on and he became quite focued on career. He’s an executive now, lives upper middle class lifestyle with all the trimmings.
