<p>About the boy pays for girl's dinner stuff...I've seen people complain before about how the guy is always expected to pay and then they don't "get" anything for it and so on. If you don't want to pay for someone's dinner or movie tickets or whatever, then don't. Especially don't do it if the girl is actually prepared to pay her own way, and then you decide to snatch the bill up before she can see it and refuse to let her pay. It's like you're trying to use it as a leverage point, or something. "I paid for your dinner, now you have to do something for me in return!" I wonder if all the guys that've done that to me have gone home afterwards and complained about how I "used" them. If you don't want to be used, don't be an enabler.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's like you're trying to use it as a leverage point, or something. "I paid for your dinner, now you have to do something for me in return!" I wonder if all the guys that've done that to me have gone home afterwards and complained about how I "used" them. If you don't want to be used, don't be an enabler.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's not how I see it at all, BlahDeBlah. There may be men and women --god, maybe even a fair amount -- who think there is some kind of rigid quid pro quo for dinner, drinks, whatever. They are either inexperienced or misguided, in my opinion. Or just really, really crass. But gracious people (yes, I used the g word) sometimes will say "here, let me get this one" with friends they know and trust, knowing that what goes around comes around. It's a nice gesture; it helps form a bond. Similarly, it helps keep a good feeling going when on a date. </p>
<p>One isn't in the position to do this when one has no money, so it's a behavior of people with a bit of money or those who have been working awhile (at least some of them). If a guy has taken a girl out and there's good feeling, it can be buzzkill, like I said, to divvy up the bill. End of story. And so, the guy pays. In my opinion, the woman should kick in money, if a) the guy is just a friend; b) if the guy may have been somebody you'd consider going out with, but you decided in the course of going out that he definitely isn't. The latter isn't at all required, of course, but it can be a valiant thing to do. And it could help cement the "just friends" position. </p>
<p>Guys should never expect, in my opinion, to use paying for dinner to win quid pro quos. What a guy does when he's paying for dinner is keep a good feeling on track. In my opinion, if it's done really ostentatiously, it loses its appeal too, but maybe that's just a style. Much better to be low-key and just take care of it. Additionally, if the time out isn't going well at all and is definitely headed for a one time only kind of situation, paying will not change the trajectory of things. Who knows, maybe that's the time for the ballsy guy to say: "my god, I didn't realize I only have fifteen dollars in my wallet. Can you pay your half?" ; )</p>
<p>The thing is, these are suppose to be friends, but it's like they've gotten it into their heads somehow that if you are male, you absolutely must pay for everything every time no matter what. Which leaves me making an idiot of myself as I literally try to hand them a wad of cash and they refuse to take it. I don't pay for my friends unless I've taken them out for their birthday or something, and I don't expect them or ever want them to pay for me, because I know I don't have the money to do the reverse (and really, I probably shouldn't even be paying to go out in the first place, but I do anyway). I've actually had one of these people complain about how girls always "use" guys to get free stuff, and then a little while later we end up ordering a pizza and he literally refuses to let me even see the bill, let alone pay for my half of it, or even the tip. </p>
<p>If you are under the mutual understanding that it's an actual date, I suppose that's a bit different. I just hate when people offer to pay for anything for me because I feel like they're expecting me to do something in return for it later, either paying for them once if they're a friend, or something else if they're a friend but think that paying for my dinner once elevates them to 'more than a friend' status.</p>
<p>BlahDeBlah: This is pretty simple. Either the guy's not simply wanting to be a friend or he's really rigid about the rule that the guy always pays. I vote for the former, given his other statement. Either win the fight or stop hanging out with him. Then maybe he'll get that you really just wanted to be friends and not more.</p>
<p>Oh, I stopped hanging out with him quite a while ago. It's just that I'm reminded of that particular combination of complaints and situations whenever I see someone else complaining about always having to pay, because I wonder if they bring it on themselves like he did.</p>
<p>
[quote]
leshachicka writes: So males never would never hang out with a girl as friends? Do you have no female friends whatsoever? That seems mighty peculiar to me... I have several male friends who are just friends. We hang out all the time-- play video games, go eat places, see movies, generally laze around-- and there is no assumption that we like each other. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that when you're being asked to 'hang-out,' what you're gonna do is, well, hang-out!
[/quote]
This was answered best in a old movie, "When Harry Met Sally"
[quote]
Sally: We are just going to be friends, OK?
Harry: Great, friends. It's the best thing...You realize, of course, that we can never be friends.
Sally: Why not?
Harry: What I'm saying is - and this is not a come-on in any way, shape, or form - is that men and women can't be friends, because the sex part always gets in the way.
Sally: That's not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
Harry: No, you don't.
Sally: Yes, I do.
Harry: No, you don't.
Sally: Yes, I do.
Harry: You only think you do.
Sally: You're saying I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: How do you know?
Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
Sally: So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive.
Harry: No, you pretty much want to nail them, too.
Sally: What if they don't want to have sex with you?
Harry: Doesn't matter, because the sex thing is already out there, so the friendship is ultimately doomed, and that is the end of the story.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>When threads begin to circle 'round and 'round:</p>
<p>From page 10 of this thread:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Have you ever seen the movie from the late 80s When Harry Met Sally? Whether you like it or not (not my favorite), one of its themes is the question of whether a man and woman can ever be friends, given the underlying sexual tensions that are inevitably there on one or both sides. It's a fair question.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>and a conclusion, IMO:</p>
<p>
[quote]
FordGT: I am glad you weighed in. Though I like it, MightyNick is pretty opinionated. I think I am somewhere between you two. I think really good friendships can happen between men and women who are platonic, but it's kind of like having a pet tiger (though not as dangerous, hehe, and in fact, can be quite savory): things can be going along placidly and warm and then suddenly, pounce, the whole desire/love/sexuality thing bursts out into view and chews into you. Or, since I am going with exotic animals, it's like the elephant in the living room: no one talks about it (sexuality and underlying desire) in a platonic male-female friendship, but in a way it's much more often than not always there. You may, for instance, have felt really clear that you and the girl were not romantic, but are you sure she didn't? Or never would? Remember: one of the most basic mistakes is to think that the other person feels the same things with the same intensity (or lack thereof) that you do.
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</p>
<p>"It's funny how in this society it's not-that-bad if a woman uses a man to do nice things for her and spend money on her, but it's terrible -- hell, beyond terrible -- if a man expects a woman to sleep with him for it. It's a double standard."</p>
<p>If someone doesn't want to sleep with you, they're not the problem. You are.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If someone doesn't want to sleep with you, they're not the problem. You are.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But if someone teases and elicits attention and things toying with the subject of affection, they are a problem too, kinda slimy.</p>
<p>But they still don't want to sleep with you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But they still don't want to sleep with you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But they're still slime... </p>
<p>...in the case that I gave. And if you don't see that, you really are arguing for a kind of double standard.</p>
<p>There's nothing worse than watching the poor, doting lapdog who thinks he might actually get somewhere get taken for a ride. At a certain point, if he doesn't wise up, it becomes his problem.</p>
<p>Hey MightyNick:</p>
<p>Check out post #43:</p>
<p>I am tellin' ya, my friend....you gotta get it done.</p>
<p>BedHead</p>
<p>You guys need help your all AFCs. No PUAS around here !!</p>
<p>hahahaa. i must say..these "OMG girls are complicared/does she like me?" threads are kinda fun to read. guys and girls are very complex and it's hard to tell where you are in a relationship (just friends...potential bf/gf...not sure?). </p>
<p>for example, i met this girl..never really noticed her much or talked to her much but we hit it off pretty well when i had to work with her once in class. i know she has a bf (thanks to facebook) but..she seems to enjoy my company and wants to learn more about me. we talked about studying together, and everytime we get are getting together and i pass her suitemate, the suitmate says "oh hi! she is upstairs"..which is kinda weird, cus i guess the girl told her suitemate i was coming and it seems like she was waiting for me? i dont even know her suitmate that well to begin with</p>
<p>also, after we met up with a few classmates to study, i told her i was gonna go eat, and she tagged along (not that i mind) and we held fun convos and talked about random crap. and she seems to look at me a lot when we talk. we talk after class here and there..stuff like that.</p>
<p>it's kinda weird cus she has a bf..but the thing is that he is a senior in HS, while we are college freshman. I dont think she would cheat cus she doesnt seem like a girl like that. and she doesnt really "flirt" so its not like she wants attention. </p>
<p>maybe she just wants to be good friends, but im not used to girls who have bfs being this "close" and seemingly intertested in another guy. it would usually be kinda opposite?</p>
<p>if u want, feel free to give opinions about my situation. im curious what you guys think. its kinda awkward for me cus shes kinda cute, but has a bf and likes to hang out with me. i dont know what to think.</p>
<p>good story.</p>
<p>HAHAHAH thanks...but what do YOU think is going on?</p>
<p>I just know this) end up ending the relationship within the first 6 months. Christmas break is usually a great time. And a lot of times, it's 'cause they met someone else. Maybe you should be that someone else.</p>
<p>So, she seems to be showing a lot of interest in you. It's hard without being there to know if unconsciously or consciously she is playing the field and if she's also expressing this interest to other guys. But I would not delay in expressing interest.</p>
<p>Go with the advice that I gave to the OP (my posts begin on page 5). The first thing you need to do is get some other dates going. But this is for you to do; don't tell her.</p>
<p>And as you do that, work some game with her. Spend time with her, but don't dote on her. Don't move your schedule around a lot to be with her. Have your own life going. Find out what she likes without being obvious and do those things with her or take her to hear music she likes or something. But take it up some notches.</p>
<p>And when the mood is right -- which you will have to work to set -- make your move. DO NOT wait for her to say "I broke up with my boyfriend, so now I am available." If you do wait for that, the follow up won't be "so now I am available," but "and started going out with someone else who I like a lot."</p>
<p>Use the blacksmith rule: strike while the iron is hot.</p>
<p>If it bothers you that she has a boyfriend, keep things at kissing and talk to her about it. If she says, "I can't do this, I have a boyfriend," you can tell her simply "I know you have a boyfriend, but I had to do this." </p>
<p>If she continues asking, what do you mean, you say "you're a beautiful woman. It's really simple. I had to kiss you." Don't talk about it too much, if she keeps talking about it. Just say, "look. I get it. Okay, let's move on."
Don't say: I like you a lot (let your kiss show that.) Be declaritive and strong. Don't say "you're a beautiful woman to me" say "you're a beautiful woman." Period. And don't say "I know you don't like me" or something like that. Just say, "It's okay. Let's move on." If she's hesitating, in other words, pull back. When you pull back in a situation like this, it is more likely she'll move forward. </p>
<p>I don't know what level of experience you are. If you don't know how to kiss really well or something, this is going to sound crazy but you should consider it: find someone who doesn't know anyone you know and who will never know someone you know (that is, someone from another town or the classifieds or something) and ask them or pay them $20 or whatever to teach you how to kiss. Some guys kiss well naturally, but other guys are much better for having been taught. Don't make her be the one to teach you.</p>
<p>Does she ever talk about her boyfriend to you? Because if she does (and it's not negative) then she's probably not interested in dating you...but if she never says anything about him and all you know is what you see on Facebook, she might be curious.</p>
<p>What did you mean by, "im not used to girls who have bfs being this "close" and seemingly intertested in another guy," though? As in it's never happened to you or what?</p>
<p>THIS IS A REPOST, 'CAUSE THE LAST GOT CUT OFF....</p>
<p>Atlantiz: Two things you should keep in mind: 1) A lot of people won't start a new thing before the old one is ended; some people just don't like to do it that way. 2) Two people who go their separate ways when one or both of them go away to school nine times out of ten end up ending the relationship within the first 6 months. Christmas break is usually a great time. And a lot of times, it's 'cause they met someone else. Maybe you should be that someone else.</p>
<p>So, she seems to be showing a lot of interest in you. It's hard without being there to know if unconsciously or consciously she is playing the field and if she's also expressing this interest to other guys. But I would not delay in expressing interest.</p>
<p>Go with the advice that I gave to the OP (my posts begin on page 5). The first thing you need to do is get some other dates going. But this is for you to do; don't tell her.</p>
<p>And as you do that, work some game with her. Spend time with her, but don't dote on her. Don't move your schedule around a lot to be with her. Have your own life going. Find out what she likes without being obvious and do those things with her or take her to hear music she likes or something. But take it up some notches.</p>
<p>And when the mood is right -- which you will have to work to set -- make your move. DO NOT wait for her to say "I broke up with my boyfriend, so now I am available." If you do wait for that, the follow up probably won't be "so now I am available," but "and started going out with someone else who I like a lot" if you wait too long.</p>
<p>Use the blacksmith rule: strike while the iron is hot.</p>
<p>If it bothers you that she has a boyfriend, keep things at kissing and talk to her about it. If she says, after kissing you or as you make your move, "I can't do this, I have a boyfriend," you can tell her simply "I know you have a boyfriend, but I had to do this. You are beautiful." </p>
<p>If she continues asking, what do you mean, you say "you're a beautiful woman. It's really simple. I had to kiss you." Don't talk about it too much, if she keeps talking about it. Just say, "look. I get it. Okay, let's move on."
Don't say: I like you a lot (let your kiss show that.) Be declaritive and strong. Don't say "you're a beautiful woman to me" say "you're a beautiful woman." Period. And don't say "I know you don't like me" or something like that. Just say, "It's okay. Let's move on." If she's hesitating, in other words, pull back. When you pull back in a situation like this, it is more likely she'll move forward. If you say something like "I guess you don't like me" then she will probably believe that she shouldn't like you. </p>
<p>I don't know what level of experience you are, but judging by the question, it seems you might be a little lacking (and that's okay). If you don't know how to kiss really well or something, this is going to sound crazy but you should consider it: find someone who doesn't know anyone you know and who will never know someone you know (that is, someone from another town or the classifieds or something) and ask them or pay them $20 or whatever to teach you how to kiss. Some guys kiss well naturally, but other guys are much better for having been taught. Don't make her be the one to teach you.</p>
<p>Again on the kissing thing, if you don't have experience or enough experience: It would be really ballsy of you (if you're from La Jolla) to go to a bar in LA or Orange County far away from La Jolla and approach some women (look for women several years older who you find attractive) and, smile and laugh and say "look, there's something I have to tell you and it's going to seem kind of crazy, but believe me, it's not a line." And then tell your story about how you are interested in this girl at school, but you need some help learning how to kiss better. And say, look I'll buy you a drink, hell several drinks, if you'll help me. Ask this if a woman is sitting alone (groups of women tend to worry what each other thinks and are more likely to rib you than help you), and approach several women until one says yes. Probably most of them will laugh at you, or rather with you, because they'll think it's very cute, particularly if they are ten years or more older than you. You may find no one who will do it, but it would be fun and believe it or not would help you with your game. If this doesn't work, you could either find some class or maybe go to a club that has "women of loose morals" or something, I don't know(but keep the lessons to kissing).</p>
<p>This latter is a thought, maybe not a good one for you. But remember: women like men who are self-assured and seem to know their way around women.</p>
<p>I hope some of what I said seems appropriate for you...My first response to your post was going to be a simple: "Is this a joke? It's obvious! Seize the initiative." But what I wrote is a more detailed game plan.</p>
<p>Oh, and by the way, you said she looks you right in the eyes a lot. Sometime/s when you are talking to her, stop talking and look into her eyes for a long moment. Don't say anything, just look at her, as if expressing your longing or just studying her. And then smile or glance away or otherwise transition. Don't stare too long, but long enough to let the moment fill with meaning.</p>
<p>That's awesome for him BedHead...I wish I could do the same...</p>
<p>But i'm getting braces in a few months so getting a gf is gonna be impossible.</p>