<p>People are acting as if the greek system at UA is actively segregated. While there is not a lot of diversity in the organizations, we do interact in a civil manner with each other. Both homecoming and greek week are whole system experiences. Some are trying to argue that classes and other university activities aren’t segregated, but in reality they are. If you walk into on of the big lecture halls or the Ferg dining area you’ll notice that people that look like each other tend to sit near each other. As they say, birds of a feather flock together. The biggest hurdle is not race, but culture. The best example of this is gamedays. IFC fraternity members typically dress nicer (albeit sometimes more outlandish), i.e. khakis and a button down. Most people not in one of these fraternities don’t get it, so they don’t get a bid. I am not discounting the fact there are some racist people in fraternities, but rather it does not automatically mean a 0% chance of getting a bid if you are a minority.</p>
<p>By offering an incentive you can get people to do things they might not be comfortable with at first.</p>
<p>People are going to be with those they feel comfortable with. We all haven’t grown up in the same environments. There are kids from some OTM schools that simply haven’t grown up around or been to school with many blacks if any at all. </p>
<p>Those kids are going to join a fraternity with kids like them. That’s where they are comfortable. But if you offer an incentive then maybe you’ll accomplish what you’re trying for. </p>
<p>And the incentives aren’t really anything that aren’t already being given. Simply put stipulations on the current incentives and you’ll see some progress that most of us want to see.</p>
<p>“upper middle class” eek, is that a value? Anybody can buy some oxford shirts and some khakis at the Goodwill.</p>
<p>My S’s prep school actively recruited AA’s, that is the reason there were any at the school. Now they are private, they didn’t have to do that, but of course they got more out of it than the AA’s but that is not the point here. You need to provide incentives for chapters to be more diverse and they need to recruit AA’s in order to get them and provide FA where necessary. You can’t say that they don’t want to join, they have heard or they can see if there are few if any AA’s in a chapter they are not going to bother. </p>
<p>I hope that UA takes some steps to change this and not wait for the “tide to turn”, lol.</p>
<p>And now I’m fully back to … I’m out … before I blast a student for naive narrow mindedness. Be well, and enjoy the dress up, whitebread fairytale. :-)</p>
<p>Offering incentives to [de]segregate is NOT the answer.</p>
<p>Sure it is. Incentives are often used to get things to implement change more quickly then they would if you just allowed things to take their natural course. Incentives are also good because they don’t leave people with a feeling that they’re being strong-armed into something. </p>
<p>Bama offers merit scholarships as an incentive to more QUICKLY get higher stats kids to enroll…Bama knew it couldn’t wait for it to happen just on its own…it knew it had to get the steamroll going. :)</p>
<p>Historically, incentives have been successfully used for all kinds of positive changes to happen more quickly. </p>
<p>oh…and my son’s response was different, as i asked him about uab frats ,than your son’s gf…so who knows and i have also said that as i have no personal knowledge of the frats at uab,</p>
<p>For me it’s not a “who knows” situation. My son’s GF is in a sorority at UAB. She’s had Swaps with the various houses. I’ve seen the Swap pics on her Facebook page. I think you’ve said that your son is not in a frat, so I put more stock in actual Swap pics from an actual Greek at UAB.</p>
<p>As AL34 stated…there are many students (most students) who have nothing to do with Rush/Pledging/etc. My kids never really had the time or interest in pledging. </p>
<p>*would it also have to get rid of blatant religious and sexual discrimination?</p>
<p>-Frats and Sororities are based wholly on sex based discrimination
(and what guy doesn’t want to join a Sorority?)</p>
<p>-Hispanic student club, Chinese Student club, Jewish, Catholic, Atheists, etc., organizations would all be forced to integrate? Veterans, Atheists, Coalition of Elite African Americans, Baha’i, Mormons? * </p>
<p>Yes…that’s when things can get a bit hairy. The Catholic Church has its parish on leased Bama land. Is it supposed to allow non-Catholics to come up for Communion because it’s on school property? </p>
<p>I still support incentives for integrating the Greek Houses, but it can’t be done with a sledgehammer. </p>
<p>*i guess i dont differentiate the same way you do m2ck… here is a mother saying she is hurting for her child who is a minority… to me its the same thing…
*</p>
<p>I have no idea what you’re talking about. I said that AA’s would be slow to sign up for non-AA rush (because AA’s have their own Greek system). You said that Waddow’s D is willing. I know that Waddow’s D is willing…especially since she doesn’t have an alternative Greek system… but she’s not an example of what I was talking about (getting more AA’s to rush) because she’s not AA. Minorities are not interchangeable. lol If so, then tell UCLA they don’t have any issues because they enroll many Asians and few URMs. </p>
<p>The point is that it will continue to be hard to get AA’s to go thru non-AA Rush because they have their own system. It won’t be hard to get other minorities to go thru Rush…and I think other minorities already go thru Rush. My neighbor is Hispanic and she’s in a White sorority.</p>
<p>OP, definitely rush and keep an open mind while doing so.</p>
<p>I also applaud Waddaw for her post. It reminds me of how MLK Jr. was told that he had become too old to play with white children. It’s extremely difficult and saddening to tell someone that they cannot do something based on a personal trait that they did not choose and cannot change.</p>
<p>I know for a fact that there are Hispanic and Asian students in traditionally white fraternities and sororities at UA. While many of these students are white, it does show that traditionally the white fraternities and sororities aren’t 100% WASP. While I don’t see the need to ensure that members are upper middle class republicans, evidently some people don’t like having brothers/sisters with different political beliefs and/or don’t come from families that have lots of disposable income. </p>
<p>Incentives can work. As m2ck mentioned, look at UA’s merit scholarships. A student with 32+ on their ACT can get free tuition and could pay for many other expenses, including fraternity/sorority dues, with a student loan. This sounds like a great combination for a student from Anytown, USA who couldn’t normally afford to attend an OOS university, let alone join a Greek organization. They might not be upper middle class republicans who are used to southern traditions and standards of dress, but they can still make excellent fraternity brothers or sorority sisters.</p>
<p>I’ve always wondered about those students who transfer from a different university and try to join the UA chapter of their Greek organization. I know that the new chapter is under no legal obligation to accept them as full members, but would they have to conform to the “standards” of dress, politics, etc. of the UA chapter in order to be fully accepted as a transfer or would being an upstanding member of another chapter generally be enough to earn full membership?</p>
<p>To the original poster - go for it. But make sure you do your research…also make sure you get to know whatever frat you’re interested in. The white orgs process has the benefit of being able to pick multiple choices in hopes of receiving a bid from one (correct me if I’m wrong). With the AA system you ‘formally’ pick ONE. </p>
<p>Also, you’re still not going to have much AAs attempt to pledge a white fraternity. Even with incentives, for the overwhelming majority the social atmosphere is completely different. Most black students aren’t going to share in common the hobbies.</p>
<p>Umm, I would submit that there are only 6 “boy hobbies”:</p>
<p>Eat
Listen to music
Work out
Play xbox
Play sports
Girls</p>
<p>Which of these differ by race? :-)</p>
<p>I have read this thread with great interest. My S is a freshman, and I am generally very proud to tell others that he is a student at THE University of Alabama. </p>
<p>But, I am not proud of the Greek system. Frankly, I am disgusted by it. I find it so hard to believe that in 2011, such a system still exists. How is it that a few ‘stand-up’ guys in an all-white frat haven’t gotten together and advocated change within their house? Maybe I’m being naive, but I know there must be many fine young men and women at UA in leadership positions in the all-white greek organizations - - so why not?</p>
<p>Others have mentioned the University giving incentives for integration, which may be useful to a point. But the real change will only come when the students themselves become passionate about bringing an end to this absurd ‘tradition’.</p>
<p>Thanks m2ck for catching my typo [de]</p>
<p>I agree incentives have value and work in many situations. However, there is no guarantee that members of organizations that take advantage of the incentives for financial gain necessarily embrace the beliefs and benefits of integrated membership. </p>
<p>It is likely some individuals won’t let go of their deep seeded beliefs and traditions. Before you know it, these actives attract pledges with similar suppressed attitudes and forward progress is moving at the pace of a snail.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that if the university wanted to change this they would start moving in that direction. Universities and national chapters of greek organizations put all kinds of requirements upon fraternities and sororities. It isn’t just a private elite club - it’s a private elite club chartered through a national organization and officially sanctioned and financially supported by the university.</p>
<p>The fact that there aren’t many students seeking membership in an social organization full of people who don’t want them there isn’t evidence that minorities prefer being excluded.</p>
<p>It’s really hard to make an argument supporting segregation in greek houses that can’t be picked up and plopped verbatim into ANY pro segregation argument from the 1950’s and 1960’s.</p>
<p>Wake210 you hit the nail on the head! Change can only take place when students themselves become passionate and stand up to the traditions. </p>
<p>Everyone of us has had a friend, family member or co worker that demonstrated destructive behavior (abuse, addiction, beliefs…). You may have tried to get help for them (counseling, medical intervention or treatment). Recovery happens only when that person chooses to change. If the person does not want to change, we have two choices; do nothing or walk away (disassociate from them). When relationships become unhealthy, we make choices that impact future generations. My DH and I have chosen to walk away from the only set of grandparents our children have. After many attempts to make thing work, we chose to break the cycle of lies and unforgiving hearts. As painful as it has been, our children have the courage to stand up for what is right and just. We are doing a disservice to our own children and society when we tell ourselves “a lie is not a lie unless we get caught or say so”. We can no longer stand by and mold the truth for the sake of “tradition”. </p>
<p>… You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink…</p>
<p>Which of these differ by race? 
</p>
<p>None. Which is why I don’t buy the “cultural differences” thing. Such alleged differences (IMHO) are wildly exaggerated.</p>
<p>If black and white kids can chillax in Honors suites, why can’t they do the same in frat houses?</p>
<p>Waddaw – wow. Thank you!!</p>
<p>After plowing through all the passionate discourse on this thread, I think I’ll propose to Stephen Black that he make this issue the topic of next year’s Moral Forum debate.</p>
<p>“Resolution: In order to foster a more moral society, the UA administration should require fraternities and sororities to racially integrate, and impose sanctions on those who fail to do so.” (or words to that effect)</p>
<p>The Moral Forum final debate is held in a public auditorium, it is covered by the CW, and it is videotaped. And there is a substantial cash prize for the student finalists, who must be prepared to argue either side of the resolution.</p>
<p>[CESR</a> @ UA](<a href=“http://cesr.ua.edu/programsandactivities/moralforum.html]CESR”>http://cesr.ua.edu/programsandactivities/moralforum.html)</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I should add something about our experience…</p>
<p>As I said, I asked someone at every school if the Greek system was segregated. At Alabama, my question was, “My daughter is interested in rush; however, she is Asian. Is there a place for her here?” (That is a direct quote… I will never forget the feeling I had when I said, “however, she is Asian.”)</p>
<p>The person to whom I addressed this question is a high level administrator and, unlike many at other institutions, she did not flinch. She looked at me and said, “I do not know.” Her candor meant the world to me as it indicated she respected my question. She placed my personal need to have a truthful answer for my daughter’s sake above the need to make the “correct” statement on behalf of UA. She then gave me contact information for another administrator who has historically led the way in trying to fully integrate the Greek system. </p>
<p>I contacted this person and again, was relieved to have a candid conversation. She told me that sororities have offered bids to Asians…when I asked for numbers she guessed perhaps around 5 or so. Many people think of “Asians” as limited to people of East Asian or Southeast Asian descent (“oriental” or “mongoloid” peoples) so I then specified my daughter is Indian, she was “less knowledgeable”, shall we say… she just wasn’t sure and therefore, didn’t offer any numbers. </p>
<p>The important points:
- It may be that the Greek system is not 100% segregated, but certainly the numbers I was given are nothing to praise. Make no mistake, this administrator was not being laudatory in her assurances. It seemed to me that she wished that she could assuredly tell me that the Greek system is completely open, non-biased and fair. She pointed out that many white women rush and yet are not offered bids and that many Asians, as a general rule, seem more interested in activities other than social organizations. I look forward to the day when a question like mine is answered with an incredulous, “Of course there is a place for your daughter …as much as there is for any other student!”</p>
<ol>
<li><p>There are some (many? most?) among the top administration at UA who would love for this not to be an issue in 2011…and not b/c they don’t want to deal with the political aspects, but because they want every student at UA to experience equity in all their university has to offer.</p></li>
<li><p>It was primarily due to the candor of these two women that I knew UA could be a good place for my daughter. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>An unrelated point:
Typically college student organizations that are related to a particular ethnic group, religion, etc. are not limited to only members of that group… Hispanic clubs include non-Hispanics; Black Student Unions include non-AA; etc.
At a public institution, it is illegal to permit discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion, national origin, disability, etc. And besides, there are always students who are non-AA who are interested in being members of BSU; straight kids who are interested in being members of LGBT organizations; non-Hispanics who want to join organizations centered on Hispanic culture, etc. etc. So all the questions about whether non-Greek organizations would be forced to allow “other” members is really not applicable.</p>
<p>Wow, I log on after several weeks to find this discussion. This is not the first time this has been debated at UA, See the article below.</p>
<p>[Sorority</a> Row | The New Republic](<a href=“http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/sorority-row]Sorority”>Sorority Row | The New Republic)</p>
<p>But fwiw, membership selection is private, not guaranteed as many of the white girls who are dropped during recruitment from white sororities each year will attest. And while the enrollment at UA has increased, only 2 new sororities have been colonized in the last 20 years. There is a traditionally Jewish sorority that doesn’t participate in formal rush, and a Christian one as well. I don’t see anyone blasting them for being exclusionary.</p>
<p>Let your young adult children make there own decisions regarding their affiliations and friends. It’s their time, their decisions, not the board of trustees, not Mom and Dad.</p>
<p>My 2 cents.</p>
<p>Chillaxing in a dorm room is quite different from being in a fraternity. A fraternity is truly a family. You have to deal with everything from financial to social issues that arise within and amongst the fraternity itself to the fraternity’s interaction with the public.</p>
<p>Also, yeah for guys we definitely share a lot more in common than girls (video games, working out, girls etc), but all you have to do is go to a white frat party and then a black frat party and you can notice the difference in the atmosphere. Music is the driver behind parties and the musical tastes are different.</p>
<p>IMHO there is a more effective way of integrating rather than carrots and sticks, which often cause resentment. That is something that should be avoided in this highly sensitive area. Instead UA, through Greek Affairs, should undertake a well thought out plan of action. I think it would be best to begin with sororities because their formal recruitment is so structured, with very specific NPC policies and procedures governing it. In addition, each sorority’s natl has specific policies/procedures for membership selection and they answer far more to their natl orgs than many of the fraternities. My thoughts: </p>
<p>UA recruits excellent new students from around the country. Greek Affairs ought to do the same with minority rushees. I suggest a minimum of 50 highly qualified rushees be “recruited” to go through formal recruitment. Why so many? 1, 2, or even a handful does not make for true integration. With 50 each sorority could (hopefully) pledge 3-4. Thus no chapter or girl is singled out as the only one. This would (again hopefully) succeed in breaking down current and future barriers.</p>
<p>Please note I also said highly qualified. Remember that UA is a super competitive sorority recruitment campus. That means ANY rushee will be automatically cut if she doesn’t have the chapters’ minimum GPA; a strong, diversified resume; and letters of rec from alums. I would suggest a GPA of 3.2+, lots of varied HS activities including leadership positions, and plenty of community service. They also need at least 2 recs per chapter, which Greek Affairs could help to obtain.</p>
<p>Greek Affairs should also contact NPC and all the natls to get them on board. IMHO it would be beneficial to have each org send a representative to be on campus during rush. This would help insure that each chapter follows its natl policies for membership selection, specifically its non-discrimination policy which they all have. These reps could also deal with concerns from members, alums, or parents.</p>
<p>Get alums familiar with UA rush to mentor the rushees beforehand. Cover everything from what to expect to the art of rush-style small talk to what to wear. I know this sounds shallow, but non-minority rushees do it too. Hey, people prepare and practice for job interviews as well.</p>
<p>Just my $.02.</p>
<p>Do you mean recruit high school seniors/incoming freshmen? or seek current students?</p>