Help for Asian-American Discrimination in Colleges

[CollegeCookie]

<p>So, as the title suggests, I'm Asian-American. An Over-Represented-Minority. The thing is, studies have shown that an Asian who gets an SAT score of 1600/1600 has the same chance at a school as a Black/ African-American who scores 1150/1600.
That discrimination is extremely shocking. Revolting, even.</p>

<p>In a society where a tiny bit of discrimination against blacks, hispanics, Native Americans, gays, religions, etc creates a huge media uproar, Why have we just "accepted" the fact that Asians are at an EXTREME disadvantage in the process? </p>

<p>Asian parents come from a so-called "disciplinary" culture that emphasizes hard work. Those who push their children to do so much are thwarted by the fact that they are at an almost equally large disadvantage. How could the parents and their children work so much and yet not even use a bit of effort to try to question the system?</p>

<p>Racism is not okay. Ever. The infamous Affirmative Action "required federal contractors to take 'affirmative action' to hire without regard to race, religion and national origin." However, it also needs to compensates for "past" discrimination. How can repeated discrimination account for past discrimination? More racism does not help counter racism in any way.</p>

<p>This obvious and glaring act of racism is disgusting, and Asians NEED to do something drastic. Protests, maybe? Letters to legislators, President, media; Petitions.
Seriously. Look up "Asian discrimination" and you will find many articles and studies citing terrible statistics. </p>

<p>The only two questions that need to be answered are:</p>

<p>1) Are Asians second-class people, thereby making their accomplishments less important?
2) Will YOU do something necessary and take action?</p>

<p>All you Asians out there who feel discriminated against, or even non-Asians who wish to help, please help.</p>

<p>Let's build ideas and share them together. Together we CAN change things for the better, for future generations of Asians and for a more just and ethical world.</p>

<p>Please post any ideas on how to chance this, or even just any knowledge, insight, or experiences about this topic.</p>

[born2dance94]

<p><a href=“http://29.media.■■■■■■■■■■/tumblr_lxjm4n4umw1rn1xxfo1_400.gif[/url]”>http://29.media.■■■■■■■■■■/tumblr_lxjm4n4umw1rn1xxfo1_400.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[acha2012]

<p>i agree, it’s unfair. people should be judged by who they are and what they can bring, not based on what race you are. isnt this what we fought the civil war for? equality? </p>

<p>the check race box should be taken away. why do you need to know what race i am? they should be asking whether or not students are a good fit for their school. what they can contribute.
while i understand that diversity is something that’s necessary, the discrimination gap is getting ridiculous, especially as admissions rates plummet and every little bit counts.</p>

<p>and why is there a specific “are you hispanic” question?
shouldn’t checking the box for hispanic be enough?</p>

[NerdyAsianKid]

<p>It is pretty unfair, yes. But think for a second, would you rather be on a college campus that’s 80% Asian or one that has, say, 15% Asian, 10% Hispanic, 10% African American, etc? I’m pretty sure I would choose a diverse campus over one that’s more than 50% Asian.</p>

[MoreAboutNothing]

<p>Please cite your sources for any hard data.</p>

[riaudo]

<p>Although I think you should cite your data, I agree with you 100% and I’m not Asian. (I’m Middle Eastern, so I’m neither an ORM or URM)</p>

<p>But this is what annoys me - when will we stop dividing people into different categories? Why can’t we just be unique individuals? </p>

<p>There are better ways to account for diversity in my opinion, such as extracurricular involvement or unique talents. Something that is EARNED, unlike melanin pigmentation. </p>

<p>I’m not Asian, but if I was, I’d feel the same way as you. It is VERY revolting that the thing that can make the difference between accepted and rejected is the check box that describes something you can’t control.</p>

<p>This isn’t politically correct at all and I’m going to get flamed by someone on here. As Newt Gingrich says, “it’s not politically correct to use facts that people don’t like”.</p>

<p>TL;DR for my rant: There are many ways to bring diversity to a campus that are based on merit, not melanin pigmentation - and I’m tired of being classified by race and not individuality.</p>

[dfree124]

<p>

i agree, it’s unfair. people should be judged by who they are and what they can bring, not based on what race you are. isnt this what we fought the civil war for? equality?

</p>

<p>Actually the civil war was fought to preserve the Union. If Lincoln announced that the war was for slavery then the border states would’ve likely gone to the Confederacy, which could’ve changed the course of the war.</p>

[riaudo]

<p>

It is pretty unfair, yes. But think for a second, would you rather be on a college campus that’s 80% Asian or one that has, say, 15% Asian, 10% Hispanic, 10% African American, etc? I’m pretty sure I would choose a diverse campus over one that’s more than 50% Asian.

</p>

<p>I really do not care at all, to be honest. I don’t why you would, actually. Why should we engineer diversity?</p>

[xquiksilverx]

<p>I do think it’s a private college’s right to choose how they want to populate their campus, but on an intellectual level, I agree that it’s unfair to try to attain diversity by choosing lesser-qualified applicants simply for their race. I think it’s one thing to give a boost to a kid with an 1150 SAT if he/she is, for instance, heavily affected by poverty, but quite another for one from a middle-class, moderately wealthy family.</p>

<p>I agree that colleges should aim for diversity, but that doesn’t come from skin color. Diversity comes from people with different life experiences, outlooks, ideas, interests, personalities, and passions.</p>

[CollegeCookie]

<p>Here are my sources:</p>

<p>1) [No</a> Asians Need Apply | The Cornell Daily Sun](<a href=“http://www.cornellsun.com/node/48879]No”>http://www.cornellsun.com/node/48879)</p>

<p>The Cornell Daily Sun cites a study that “Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points. Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty. It was no surprise then, that after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.”</p>

<p>This says that Blacks get a 310 point boost from whites, and Asians get a 140 point penalty. Asians are 460 points “below” blacks.</p>

<p>2) [Asians</a> may face tougher college admission process, study finds - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/12/24103/]Asians”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/12/24103/)</p>

<p>“Of students applying to private colleges in 1997, African-American applicants with SAT scores of 1150 had the same chances of being accepted as white applicants with 1460s and Asian applicants with perfect 1600s.”</p>

<p>White Americans are tremendously affected by this too.</p>

[UMTYMP_student]

<p>I imagine this thread will be locked in the near future and you will be redirected to the general Race in College Admissions thread. The newspaper articles cited by CollegeCookie are very likely based on Espenshade and Chung’s papers “Admission Preferences for Minority Students, Athletes, and Legacies at Elite Universities” and “The Opportunity Cost of Admission Preferences at Elite Universities”.</p>

<p>xquiksilverx colleges that receive federal funding which is almost all of them are prevented from discriminating based on race and do not have a completely unfettered ability to choose students as they wish. A long time ago Harvard was investigated for discrimination against Asians and ended up making some changes in their admissions policies. It is fairly likely that one of the recent cases about affirmative action in college admissions will make it to the Supreme Court and it is not improbable that it will be struck down entirely there.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>Here we go again.</p>

<p>If you start with the assumption that college admissions is all about SAT scores, then yes, there is data to support your premise.</p>

<p>If, however, you start with the understanding that colleges look at the whole individual, and if you realize that many Asian students’ high scores are the result of test preparation factories, then your premise is called into question.</p>

<p>Interesting statistic I haven’t seen mentioned on CC: in a test of critical reasoning ability given to entering college freshmen as part of a study of college instructional effectiveness, Asian students scored below white students. [Source: Arun and Roksa, “Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses” (University of Chicago Press, 2011), Table A.2.1., showing average Asian score on the Collegiate Learning Assessment of 1119, average white scores of 1170]. After 2 years of instruction, the results show Asians scoring below not only whites but also Hispanics [Ibid., showing average second-sophomore scores of Asians, 1146; Hispanics, 1152; whites, 1211]</p>

[NerdyAsianKid]

<p>

If, however, you start with the understanding that colleges look at the whole individual, and if you realize that many Asian students’ high scores are the result of test preparation factories, then your premise is called into question.

</p>

<p>What do you mean by “test preparation factories?” SAT prep courses definitely aren’t magical 2400 machines. IMO, just using the blue book to study and get used to the problems is far more effective than any flashy gimmicks taught in prep courses. </p>

<p>Plus, more often than not, less-qualified URMs are accepted over Asians who have better stats and ECs. While this is purely anecdotal, I know of an upper middle-class African American kid with a 2000, 3.8 UW, and good ECs get into Harvard over an Asian with a 2370, 4.0, and amazing ECs (and I know that someone’s going to say something along the lines of this, “The Asian kid wrote ****ty essays while the URM wrote essays that belong in a college counseling book” and I assure you that’s not the case since I actually read both of their essays)</p>

<p>

Interesting statistic I haven’t seen mentioned on CC: in a test of critical reasoning ability given to entering college freshmen as part of a study of college instructional effectiveness, Asian students scored below white students. [Source: Arun and Roksa, “Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses” (University of Chicago Press, 2011), Table A.2.1., showing average Asian score on the Collegiate Learning Assessment of 1119, average white scores of 1170]. After 2 years of instruction, the results show Asians scoring below not only whites but also Hispanics [Ibid., showing average second-sophomore scores of Asians, 1146; Hispanics, 1152; whites, 1211]

</p>

<p>How is this relevant to the topic at hand? It seems like you’re quoting it just to show that Asians aren’t as smart as the other races.</p>

<p>–</p>

<p>And before anyone gets the wrong idea, I’m actually FOR affirmative action (diversity), although I think it’s unfair.</p>

[riaudo]

<p>

If, however, you start with the understanding that colleges look at the whole individual

</p>

<p>That’s the exact problem. They AREN’T looking at the whole individual. When you start considering people as part of a diversity block, you aren’t looking at the individual. You’re not looking at their talents, their intellect, their hard work, their extracurricular pursuits, and their accomplishments - you’re looking at their ethnicity. That is wrong.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>It’s relevant because it shows that SAT scores are not the only indicators of merit, or necessarily the best predictors of success in college.</p>

[born2dance94]

<p>

How is this relevant to the topic at hand? It seems like you’re quoting it just to show that Asians aren’t as smart as the other races.

What he said is entirely relevant. Not that Asians are less smart, but that, on average their critical reasoning (which usually corresponds with verbal IQ and creative/analytical skills) was lower. </p>

<p>AKA, higher SATs scores for Asians do not imply that those kids are smarter, nor that they would fare better at that college.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

You’re not looking at their talents, their intellect, their hard work, their extracurricular pursuits, and their accomplishments - you’re looking at their ethnicity.

</p>

<p>And you, no doubt, have sat in on those college admissions committees and are an expert on what they do and don’t consider?</p>

[riaudo]

<p>

AKA, higher SATs scores for Asians do not imply that those kids are smarter, nor that they would fare better at that college.

</p>

<p>But colleges don’t ask for these little critical reasoning test scores - most people submit SAT scores. What you’re basically saying is that because of a single study, we should assume that all Asians score lower than others in critical reasoning tests. When you only have the SAT to look at, you can’t make that assumption.</p>

[Erin_s_Dad]

<p>From the actual study:

Espenshade noted that he did not initially use the word “discrimination” when discussing the results of his study. Though he found a 140-point SAT score discrepancy between accepted white and Asian students, he did not have access to what he called “soft variables,” like extracurriculars and teacher recommendations.</p>

<p>“The data we had is only part of the data that admission deans have access to,” Espenshade said. “If we had access to the full range of info, it could put Asian candidates in a different light. This so-called ‘Asian disadvantage’ does not necessarily mean that Asian applicants are being discriminated against.”

They AREN’T looking at the whole individual. When you start considering people as part of a diversity block, you aren’t looking at the individual.

It’s the OP who is looking at everyone as part of a block. The colleges are (presumably) looking at everyone as individuals and deciding based on the factors outlined in the Common Data Set.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

@NerdyAsianKid

What do you mean by “test preparation factories?”

</p>

<p>This: </p>

<p>

intrinsic intelligence, of course, is precisely what Asians don’t believe in. They believe—and have *proved—that the constant practice of test-taking will improve the scores of whoever commits to it. All throughout Flushing, as well as in Bayside, one can find “cram schools,” or storefront academies, that drill students in test preparation after school, on weekends, and during summer break. “Learning math is not about learning math,” an instructor at one called Ivy Prep was quoted in the New York Times as saying. “It’s about weightlifting. You are pumping the iron of math.” Mao puts it more specifically: “You learn quite simply to nail any standardized test you take.”

</p>

<p>[What</a> Happens to All the Asian-American Overachievers When the Test-Taking Ends? – New York Magazine](<a href=“http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/index1.html]What”>What Happens to All the Asian-American Overachievers When the Test-Taking Ends? -- New York Magazine - Nymag)</p>