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<p>It’s usually an ethics course with writing and presentations. Usually a lot easier than the real math/science courses.</p>
<p>Did his adviser recommend against his Fall Freshman courseload? My son proposed a tough schedule a few semesters back and his adviser said that he would approve it but recommended substituting a gen ed for one of the math/science courses. Son did the recommended change. The semester was challenging, even with the one fewer math/science course.</p>
<p>I was wondering if your son enjoyed the Computer Science classes? If he did, he may be in the right major in the right school. If it was the physics and math that he had more trouble with, keep in mind that those subjects don’t have a whole lot to do with most computer careers.</p>
<p>If he hangs in there, hopefully the math and physics will be out of the way, and he will be able to take the more and interesting higher-level CS classes.</p>
<p>I was a CS major many years ago.</p>
<p>Killer courseloads in the first two years seem fairly typical for students in physical sciences (who are not in the engineering school) as well as engineering, judging from what my two children have encountered. Also, these courses are usually graded on fairly steep curves, and in some classes the curve is averaged to a C. </p>
<p>At the more selective schools and in honors classes at state schools, very few students majoring in a math or science take their AP credits in those subjects, so it is not unusual for a class to be dominated by students who received a 5 on their AP exam and prestigious awards in the subject at hand, who are prepared to do little but study while school is in session. Many have participated in hobbies that have involved the subject matter for many years, coming into class with years of practical experience. IOW, even among students with similar credentials (grades, exam scores) or even raw “talent”, there is a wide variation in the amount of preparation in the subject matter, and this shows in the amount of studying that is necessary during freshman year. </p>
<p>This becomes even more obvious if the professor is inadequate or disorganized (some professors are also short on the executive function skills necessary to run an intro course) or the course is badly managed. My children had to learn gradually during freshman or sophomore year how to keep on top of material even if the professor is not teaching well.</p>
<p>Also, when classes are graded on a curve and the final grade is determined by two or three exams, it is often hard for students to even know how they are doing (or if their studying has been effective) until well into the semester. Sometimes even the student with the top grade has gotten only about half the problems correct on an exam. Knowing how to manage time and to keep going with difficult material even when the outcome seems uncertain is a skill that students in engineering programs seem to need. (OTOH, CS courses are set up so students get credit only if the program is completely debugged, and can be extremely time consuming even for talented students for that reason, so students need to plan for that.)</p>
<p>It is not difficult to find working engineers who have gotten several C’s or repeated one or more classes, but who have nonetheless gotten their degrees and gone on into the workplace. Ditto for engineering students who have gone on to ace the next course in a sequence after getting a C. It does seem to be good training to learn to work hard and then move on even if disappointed.</p>
<p>What I have noticed, however, with counselors who work with college students is that their degrees are rarely in engineering or physical sciences, and they have little understanding of how these courses work and the types of skills that are needed to succeed in them. TA’s can be hit or miss, too. My own children have found that it is helpful to work in peer groups, and also to use supplementary texts if the professor is not clear or the main text does not provide enough information.</p>
<p>
I don’t think you can generalize. My son’s fraternity (at Umich) had quite a few students who did well enough during their pledge year to get into Ross. Some of his fraternity brothers got into med school and dental school. Others have gone on to grad school at Ivy League schools. If the focus of the fraternity is academic as well as social, I don’t see a problem.</p>
<p>When we visited MIT during the CPW week last year, one thing was very clearly uttered by each and every member of the faculty or representative. That was
“Even though 100% of you have been used to top of your respective high school classes, you need to realize that 50% of you will be below average at MIT and majority will recieve B’s and C’s”</p>
<p>So, you need to let DS know that some schools are harder than other and some majors are harder than other. University is a place to learn and not accumulate GPA. </p>
<p>Also freshman year is mostly weeding classes for the majors and if your DS like his major he might find subsequent classes much interesting and there by much easier.</p>
<p>If it’s any consultation I have a D who feels exactly the same way. I’ve posted over this year about how hard this year has been for her and how she feels as if she’s not smart enough at the school she’s at. Her brother who will be a senior in engineering says that every engineer questions why he’s gone into this field and why is he working so hard for such little benefit.</p>
<p>My D just finished her second year and fall semester was a disaster! Spring seems to have gone much better, she thinks that she has at least B’s in every class and hopes that one of them will be an A but who knows that this point as finals were hard and grades are not out yet.</p>
<p>Some things that my D has learned this year.
<p>As a mom who had a child in a single this year. I thought it was horrible. She was very isolated and tended to keep to herself. Also it was hard when others had built in people to eat with and go out with and she had to make more of an effort which was really hard for her. Things got better as the year went on but it was a hard fall. Hopefully he can find someone to live with. This year my S didn’t get his butt in gear and didn’t find roommates until late in the year. He posted on the school bulletin board and found a house to live in. He doesn’t know anyone but he has his own friends but I think it will be much better than living on his own. He met the guys and they seem nice. </p>
<p>Good luck on everything. It’s so hard to know what to do and my kids have struggled with this.</p>
<p>Also I agree with everything frazzled2thecore said and it is things that my D has talked about.</p>
<p>Have nothing to add except that both my kids adore singles, so that is not universally true for everyone, though I think the above post has excellent advice.</p>
<p>My son is finishing his degree this year and is in a single apartment. There is a time crunch associated with an off campus apartment. Dishes, cooking, grocery shopping, laundry, getting to campus, etc. take up time. Don’t forget to factor that in to his time commitments. I still think this kid is way over committed.
Kids in the dorms aren’t grocery shopping or doing dishes or commuting to campus.</p>
<p>Thank you, thank you all - I knew I could count on you for objective advice.</p>
<p>I agree. This was a very, very helpful thread.</p>
<p>“Every engineering major requires two semesters of O Chem? Even CS or EE majors take a year of Organic? Is this normal? Just curious.”</p>
<p>No, both semesters of Organic for only ChemE. Other majors take either one semester of Inorganic or Organic. I think Biomedical requires Organic. I was just including it to list 4 credit classes.</p>
<p>^^^
Oh. Okay, I get it.</p>
<p>Oh Oh…O’Chem…it was the bain of my kid’s existance for a full year…as a bioengineering major. </p>
<p>Just an FYI Schmaltz…my kid is an engineering double major (biology is the other major) at Santa Clara University. Their engineering program is very highly regarded AND challenging. I don’t think you get much of a “break” for easy grades by going there…instead of Columbia or the like.</p>
<p>This OPs son really had no balance in his course, and that can be tough. The terms my kid didn’t have a core course…and had all math/science/engineering related courses were tougher for her too.</p>
<p>I’d like to add that just because ‘everyone’ is taking 5 courses in their freshman year (or any other year) is no reason why your son should feel he has to. Some kids need more time to adjust to being away at college so a lighter freshman year is called for. Some just need a different pace in order to get the grades they need to feel in control (ie, Cs make them depressed even if they know it’s a ‘good’ grade for that class). If he has to do a class or two over the summer to graduate on time, so be it. </p>
<p>Friend’s son with a learning disability is going through his engineering degree with 3 courses every semester and intends to make it a 5 year plan. That allows him to get the grades he needs to feel competent, get some sleep, and still have a social life. There is no prize for finishing faster (well, maybe the cost of tuition for the extra year, but at some schools, that may be well worth it).</p>
<p>Kudos to your son for sticking with this challenging program. It would be helpful to reframe thinking a bit:
<p>Engineering school grad here … grades all over the place, but freshman grades were, um, disappointing. I never did fail a class, but lots of my peers did. At my school, that meant an overload the next semester … killer! Curves were common, so obviously a lot of students did NOT get A’s or B’s … that’s what happens when classes are graded on a curve. In addition, unlike high school, where the focus is usually on learning it & spitting it back out, college profs expect students to take it a step further & figure things out. It’s a matter of maturing into it. Plus, not everyone is good at every type of class. The emphasis right now needs to be on learning how to learn. The rest follows. If your son wants to be an engineer & is willing to work hard, it will come. If it’s a really good school (sounds like it is), the opportunities to prove himself through internships in the future will prove very helpful. At UMich, my friend’s son was able to find an internship even without top grades. They liked him so much, they offered him a job well before graduation.</p>
<p>OP, have you thought of what he could replace the frat membership with? Seems like he’s got a desire to build up his social life. He could check out the non-academic clubs available on campus. An intramural sports club or something like ceramics would help reduce stress and meet regularly, giving him the ability to build more non-engineering based friendships.</p>
<p>Working with a study group of 3-4 classmates may give OP’s S some significant support in learning to teach oneself (or explain to others), as well as giving him some of that people contact he wants. At a couple of the math and CS programs S applied to, students were told they were <em>expected</em> to work together to learn the material because there was more/tougher work than one person could reasonably tackle solo (though they could not program for each other/swap code).</p>
<p>First year is a time when the playing field tends to be leveled out. Some kids come in superbly prepared; some were top students at their HS, but didn’t have access to the activities and resources that make some of those freshmen look so freaking brilliant.</p>
<p>There are plenty of first-year 4.0s who hit the wall soph year when they can no longer skate on prior background/native smarts. There are also PLENTY of sophs who blossom after struggling freshman year. Those are the kids who fought their way through, learned to study for these kinds of courses, and took advantage of study groups, TAs, etc.</p>
<p>Many kids who took CS in HS learned to write code using some bad habits. (AP CS can be completed successfully without having to know much about algorithmic programming.) College CS programs will teach students to program using algorithms. It is a whole new way of thinking and programming and forces one to integrate a lot of math skills. it is not unlike the transition math majors make from Calculus to Analysis – the level of abstraction kicks up a few notches and it’s the point at which many folks struggle.</p>
<p>@@@@@@bump@@@@@@@</p>
<p>Noticed that you bumped this discussion back. How is your son doing now? Grades up?</p>
<p>I went to MIT and had a hard time my first two years. Didn’t learn any study habits in HS because I never had to study. I could do cold any math problem the teacher could give me. Boy did I get my comeupance.</p>
<p>It took a while to develope the good study habits. I also found I needed an physical outlet for all my energy. I took my sports interest to a higher level and played varsity, as opposed to intramural, sports. Playing sports forced me to learn to budget my time. I also figured out that one does not succed in engineering school by ones self. You need to study in groups as you learn it much better talking it out. I went from being on probabtion to an A- average my junior and senior years.</p>
<p>Good luck to your son.</p>